Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Been thinking of going Eldar for my next army and have become fascinated with the idea of a Wraithguard/lord army. I do NOT play competitively, only friendly games so I don't need/want a WAAC build. I enjoy fielding themed/fluffy armies and the thought of a Iyanden theme appeals to me. I see that they are expensive points wise and that would limit the size of the army, but would like to know if they are playable and what would work well. Most lists I find are for competitive play and are not much help.

I'd want to run at least 1 ten man squad as troops and another (smaller?) as elite, along with 1-2 Wraithlords.

Fluff wise they're extremely viable. Money wise... you better have a very big amount of coin to spend.

As for the game, you will probably suffer from the short range of wraithguard guns. However, you can use your WL to have longer range weapons and a better CC hitting force. Don't forget to have spiritseers and at least one farseer in your list.

If you wanted, you could also get a serpent for one of the smaller squads as transport. I would recommend getting assault guardians in a WS for your other troops choices, aided by a warlock with destructor. That will distract from your WG and will allow them time to get in range of the enemy.

The arrival of Dark Eldar and their new found ability to wound models from T 3 on up to T 8 on a 4+ pretty much wrecked the ability of 'wraith' anything to be competitive.

As such, there's no real reason to worry about hashing out why they won't work, as the reason (the DE Army) is quite simple.

As for making them half-way work on the table? It takes a bit of doing and investment in army design, but it can be done.

There are two ways you can run the Wraithguard squads, either 10 man with a Spiritseer to become a troops slot, or 5 man in a Wave Serpent for rapid deployment. Both are pricy for what you get, but their ability to simply wreck big, expensive things is unparallelled.

The 5-man rapid deployment is pretty easy, simply because you don't have very many choices to make. You get five dudes, and generally a warlock to make sure they don't go 'herp-derp' on you at an inopportune moment, and they go into a Wave Serpent. The only real choices here are what power to put on the warlock, and Enhance pretty much wins out most of the time, as by it's nature it's likely to drop out of their transport, shoot something big, and then very likely end up getting assaulted, where WS and I 5 can really help.

The 10 man deployment is a bit trickier... if only because you have the illusion of more choice. You really don't. You get 10 guys (because why not? if you've gonna do 8, might as well kick in another 70pts and make it a scoring unit), plus a Spiritseer so that any Wraithlord tagging along have a bigger leash. The role of this unit is that of fire sponge. It's generally close on 400pts of hard as hell to shift because people don't want to put their quality things close to it, and as such it tends to draw a large amount of heavy weapon fire. For this reason, the Warlock NEEDS to have Conceal, so that the unit can have a cover save as it advances inexorably on the enemy. What's more, this unit REALLY needs an HQ Farseer joined to it, mostly so that he can Fortune it every turn. This provides it with a nightmarish level of survivability. T. 6 and a re-rollable 3+ save makes it effectively immune to small arms fire of all sorts, while that re-rollable 5+ cover save (statistically identical to a 3+ cover save) makes them hard to shift even with concentrated Lascannon/Krak Missile fire.

This makes for an extremely hard to shift center. Want to make it even more resilient? Time for combo-speed!

Bubble wrap it with a unit of 20 Guardians with their own Spiritseer, also with Conceal, and also with a Farseer (though prolly just a 2nd Farseer joined to the Wraithguard squad) giving it Fortune. Now a 5++ with a re-roll goes a decent way for Guardians, but if people want to ignore them and fire into the much more expensive Wraithguard behind, now they're firing into a re-rollable 4+ cover save, which is the threshold where the unit becomes almost immune to heavy weapons fire.

Now, that's how you build a decent brick to resist even the most stubborn shooting phase. The problem now is what to do about people who want to assault you?

Wraithlords. These dudes and their awesome stat lines anchor your brick with both long range firepower and insulation against being assaulted. At least two, and probably three are going to be needed to make your brick scary.

For their load outs? Well, it's honestly hard to go wrong when kitting one of these guys out. Basically apply two rules of thumb: never pay for a twin-linked weapon, and ALWAYS give it two flamers.

Wraithlords were never intended to have twin-linked weapons on them, GW just put that provision on them to prevent people from doubling up on the best guns. Really, go nuts here, there are few wrong choices. You've got BS 4, so low number of shots doesn't hurt you, and the lower quality weapons are generally still worth taking, as they make make an already cheap model cheaper. Personally I take a single heavy weapon and a Wraithsword, but I like using them in assault more than most people do, so YMMV.

And Flamers on these guys are the reason you always want at least one of your Farseers sporting Doom. Walking up and dropping two Flamer templates on any Doomed unit is going to ruin their day, power armor or not. Wraithlords are automatic crowd-control icons thanks to this wonderful combination.

As for tactics for the army? The brick pretty much rolls forwards, and the more mobile parts of the army (Wraithguard in Serpents, Aspect Warriors, etc) tend to pivot around it as it advances.

To combat more quality close combat armies I would heavily suggest taking a meaty unit of Harlequins and running them behind your brick for some murderous melee counter-punch, using a Shadowseer to make sure they aren't shot instead of the brick.

As for your Farseers? Be prepared to sink points into them, both of them, as they are the heart and soul of your army. Seriously. Runes of Warding to make sure enemy Psykers play nice, Runes of Witnessing to make sure they stay reliable, Spirit Stones to double their power out-put, and Doom and Fortune are MUST HAVES. Tack on Guide if you have the points at the end.

I agree with what's been said but I'd like to add if your group allows forge world wraithseer (Rules) is great fun and great unit to use but you do have to build around him.

(edits all for typos so its readable)

Footdar are on the rise these days with the Wraithstar becoming ever more popular; this a unit of 10 Wraithguard with a Spiritseer, joined by Karandras and either a Fortune Farseer or Eldrad, so they will have a 3+ re-rollable armour save and a 4+ re-rollable cover save (3+ if in actual cover).

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Footdar are on the rise these days with the Wraithstar becoming ever more popular; this a unit of 10 Wraithguard with a Spiritseer, joined by Karandras and either a Fortune Farseer or Eldrad, so they will have a 3+ re-rollable armour save and a 4+ re-rollable cover save (3+ if in actual cover).

Neat idea, but no, Karandras only confers Stealth to any unit of Striking Scorpions he joins, not any other unit.

Tri wrote:I agree with what's been said but I'd like to add if your group allows forge world wraithseer (Rules) is great fun and great unit to use but you do have to build around him.

(edits all for typos so its readable)

Hm, I feel a bit like trying it out... I think it could make for some pretty neat games (of course, it is a bonus too that my local GW allows FW things )

I like your analysis, Panzerboy26, although instead of the guardian blob acting as cover, I have tended to go with a unit of harlequins. This adds a double threat of a viable assault unit tagging along with the wraithguard. The only problem I have found with it is if I get them too close to the wraithguard, which people then target with template weapons hoping to scatter back on to the harlequins.

Another point to consider is that the wraith lists tend to do better in higher point games, 2,000-2,500. Anything below there, and it is difficult to simply get enough bodies on the table.

Thanks for all the advice. 2000 is the norm at my FLGS so no big problem there. And most of the people are open minded about FW so I might look into Wraithseer. Kinda happy to hear that they are viable with the proper build, and what was suggested is close to what I was list I was building on paper.

Salted Diamond wrote:Thanks for all the advice. 2000 is the norm at my FLGS so no big problem there. And most of the people are open minded about FW so I might look into Wraithseer. Kinda happy to hear that they are viable with the proper build, and what was suggested is close to what I was list I was building on paper.

Oh side tip for keeping points low ... Take an emboldened warlock with one unit of wraithguard (converted from necron warriors + guardian body) and stick the farseer(s) with them. Congratualtions you now have LD 10 that can be rerolled ... no more failing psychic tests.

Eldanar wrote:I like your analysis, Panzerboy26, although instead of the guardian blob acting as cover, I have tended to go with a unit of harlequins. This adds a double threat of a viable assault unit tagging along with the wraithguard. The only problem I have found with it is if I get them too close to the wraithguard, which people then target with template weapons hoping to scatter back on to the harlequins.

Another point to consider is that the wraith lists tend to do better in higher point games, 2,000-2,500. Anything below there, and it is difficult to simply get enough bodies on the table.

O.O Yowza! Harlequins as the cover unit? That's... one heck of a pricey screen. Granted, they don't need a Warlock to give them their save, but still... that's 22pts coming up off the table each time they fail a save. Granted, the Shadowseer will keep fire off of them turn 1 and 2, but even with Fortune, all it takes it ones unit of marines rolling up and jumping out of a Rhino to double-tap to take that unit from dangerous to negligible. I think that Guardians are better for the purpose of screening due to their cheapness. It stings far less to pick an 8pt model up after having failed the same re-rollable 5+ the Harles would have, and even at the end of the day I'll cry far less over a unit of Guardians getting wiped out that I will a unit of Harles big enough to screen.

Put your Harlequins behind the brick. Odds are most assaults will hit the guardians first, they'll die horribly, as it their fate most of the time, and leave the enemy staring Wraithcannons and a Harlequin counter-charge in the face.

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Footdar are on the rise these days with the Wraithstar becoming ever more popular; this a unit of 10 Wraithguard with a Spiritseer, joined by Karandras and either a Fortune Farseer or Eldrad, so they will have a 3+ re-rollable armour save and a 4+ re-rollable cover save (3+ if in actual cover).

Neat idea, but no, Karandras only confers Stealth to any unit of Striking Scorpions he joins, not any other unit.

Go read the Eldar Codex and the 40k rulebook again please. Karandras only confers Infiltrate and Fearless to Scorpions. Stalker gives him the Stealth rule plain and simple. Any unit joined by an IC with the Stealth rule also benefits from it. Base 40k rules.

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Eldanar wrote:I like your analysis, Panzerboy26, although instead of the guardian blob acting as cover, I have tended to go with a unit of harlequins. This adds a double threat of a viable assault unit tagging along with the wraithguard. The only problem I have found with it is if I get them too close to the wraithguard, which people then target with template weapons hoping to scatter back on to the harlequins.

Another point to consider is that the wraith lists tend to do better in higher point games, 2,000-2,500. Anything below there, and it is difficult to simply get enough bodies on the table.

O.O Yowza! Harlequins as the cover unit? That's... one heck of a pricey screen. Granted, they don't need a Warlock to give them their save, but still... that's 22pts coming up off the table each time they fail a save. Granted, the Shadowseer will keep fire off of them turn 1 and 2, but even with Fortune, all it takes it ones unit of marines rolling up and jumping out of a Rhino to double-tap to take that unit from dangerous to negligible. I think that Guardians are better for the purpose of screening due to their cheapness. It stings far less to pick an 8pt model up after having failed the same re-rollable 5+ the Harles would have, and even at the end of the day I'll cry far less over a unit of Guardians getting wiped out that I will a unit of Harles big enough to screen.

Put your Harlequins behind the brick. Odds are most assaults will hit the guardians first, they'll die horribly, as it their fate most of the time, and leave the enemy staring Wraithcannons and a Harlequin counter-charge in the face.

You have to pick and choose how you play it. Versus "scoot and shoot" marines, I'd probably have the harlequins behind the wraith units, for the very reasons you mentioned. I also tend to play with Eldrad, and will try to Fortune both units, if allowed to do so with the preponderance of psychic hoods in the game nowadays. My only problems with guardians is I haven't really had any success, or much use, with them since about 3rd edition.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Footdar are on the rise these days with the Wraithstar becoming ever more popular; this a unit of 10 Wraithguard with a Spiritseer, joined by Karandras and either a Fortune Farseer or Eldrad, so they will have a 3+ re-rollable armour save and a 4+ re-rollable cover save (3+ if in actual cover).

Neat idea, but no, Karandras only confers Stealth to any unit of Striking Scorpions he joins, not any other unit.

Go read the Eldar Codex and the 40k rulebook again please. Karandras only confers Infiltrate and Fearless to Scorpions. Stalker gives him the Stealth rule plain and simple. Any unit joined by an IC with the Stealth rule also benefits from it. Base 40k rules.

Go read the Eldar FAQ and the GW FAQs again please. Karandras only confers infiltrate, fearless and stalker to Striking Scorpion units. Plain and simple. Any unit joined by an IC with the stealth rule that is NOT a phoenix lord also beneifts from it. Base 40k rules.

It isn't plain and simple because you are wrong. The Eldar rules and FAQ state that Exarch Powers only confer to Warriors of the same Aspect. Karandras' Stealth is not provided by an Exarch Power, and it is only listed as also effecting Striking Scorpions because in 4th edition when the book was written Stealth did not confer across from characters to units. However it neither says that 'only' Striking Scorpions get it, nor that 'no other' may get it, so nothing in the rules or the FAQs change how the base rules for Stealth work, and that is the if a character with Stealth joins a unit that unit benefits from it.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:It isn't plain and simple because you are wrong. The Eldar rules and FAQ state that Exarch Powers only confer to Warriors of the same Aspect. Karandras' Stealth is not provided by an Exarch Power, and it is only listed as also effecting Striking Scorpions because in 4th edition when the book was written Stealth did not confer across from characters to units. However it neither says that 'only' Striking Scorpions get it, nor that 'no other' may get it, so nothing in the rules or the FAQs change how the base rules for Stealth work, and that is the if a character with Stealth joins a unit that unit benefits from it.

... actually funnily enough it did and I used this tactic within about a week of the codex coming out. Though admittedly it was on a 20 man guardian unit ... but still 4+ cover save with a reroll.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Footdar are on the rise these days with the Wraithstar becoming ever more popular; this a unit of 10 Wraithguard with a Spiritseer, joined by Karandras and either a Fortune Farseer or Eldrad, so they will have a 3+ re-rollable armour save and a 4+ re-rollable cover save (3+ if in actual cover).

Neat idea, but no, Karandras only confers Stealth to any unit of Striking Scorpions he joins, not any other unit.

Go read the Eldar Codex and the 40k rulebook again please. Karandras only confers Infiltrate and Fearless to Scorpions. Stalker gives him the Stealth rule plain and simple. Any unit joined by an IC with the Stealth rule also benefits from it. Base 40k rules.

From the Eldar Codex:

Page 56: Stealth: Karandras is able to draw the shadows around himself when creeping closer to his prey. He has the Stealth Special Rule (this ability is conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins.)

From the rulebook:

Page 49: When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule) the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

Page 76: Stealth: The ability to make maximum use of available cover has saved many a warrior from discovery and death. All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1.


So, it says quite specifically in the main rulebook that, unless the special rule specifically says otherwise, independent characters do not transfer their rules to an unit they join. the Stealth Special rule does not specifically say otherwise. The Codex makes an exception for units of Striking Scorpions that he joins. Wraithguard are not Striking Scorpions.

So, what am I missing?

In the warhammer 40k faq found here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1830600a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_3.pdf


Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth
special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1
cover save? (p76)
A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule
ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide

So as of now, any unit that Karandras leads gets to use his stealth rule since stealth is an exception to the normal.

Buy a Wraithseer from forgeworld!




I have ten wraithguard and four wraith lords at the moment, one wraithlord being an old metal one

You may want the old metal wrathlord because it is easier to get the cover save.

acekevin8412 wrote:In the warhammer 40k faq found here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1830600a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_3.pdf


Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth
special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1
cover save? (p76)
A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule
ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide

So as of now, any unit that Karandras leads gets to use his stealth rule since stealth is an exception to the normal.

......... Ah.

Well, okay then.

An FAQ answer that blatantly slops over a rules issue that otherwise was pretty clearly worded the other way.

*sigh*

Still, 215pts for +1 to cover saves is... not quite worth it in my opinion, especially if you have to give up a Farseer to do it.

Panzerboy26 wrote:Still, 215pts for +1 to cover saves is... not quite worth it in my opinion, especially if you have to give up a Farseer to do it.

Quite an understandable opinion, but it does seem to work. I haven't tried it myself yet however as I'm very anti-metal and haven't figured out a suitable plastic conversion for Wraithguard.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:Still, 215pts for +1 to cover saves is... not quite worth it in my opinion, especially if you have to give up a Farseer to do it.

Quite an understandable opinion, but it does seem to work. I haven't tried it myself yet however as I'm very anti-metal and haven't figured out a suitable plastic conversion for Wraithguard.

I seem to be in the minority as I have no issue and usually prefer the metal models to the newer plastic ones. I'll often ebay older metal rather than newer and cheaper plastic. I have an 100% OOP metal Emperors Chilrden army and a SoB army. Guess I'm just weird that way

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:Still, 215pts for +1 to cover saves is... not quite worth it in my opinion, especially if you have to give up a Farseer to do it.

Quite an understandable opinion, but it does seem to work. I haven't tried it myself yet however as I'm very anti-metal and haven't figured out a suitable plastic conversion for Wraithguard.

After winning a 7-man and 9-man tournament this summer with my "Wraithstar" list I will say that it works shockingly well. I was 3W, 0L in one tournament and 3W, 1T in the other. It works shockingly well and is effective against a much wider range of opponents than a standard Wraith list. The core unit is this:

10 Wraithguard
1 Spiritseer, witchblade, conceal
Eldrad
Karandras

Then I run another Wraithguard unit, objective holding EML guardians or rangers, and some long-range anti-tank Wraithlords and/or a night spinner. I've also run 11x Storm Guardians w/flamers and Destructor Warlock w/Serpent in reserve.

The key here is that these units are scoring. This means they're not ignoreable and that their short range is much less of a disadvantage. Against virtually all shooting attacks, this unit just laughs. Any vehicle within 12" gets disintegrated. With Guide and Doom as options, monstrous creatures don't stand a chance. Last game I killed the Great Unclean One in a single round.

In CC, you bubble wrap Karandras and Eldrad as tightly as possible. Those two together can dish out a tremendous amount of pain. If you can manage to get the charge in, the WG are dishing out twenty S5 attacks which is nothing to sneeze at. Remember, you have doom up so just about every hit is going to be a wound.

Against hordes don't forget to have Karandras use his Scorpion Chainsword to strike first, get an extra attack, and hit with a nice S5. TH/SS Termis can threaten you, however not much else in the game can. And even against them I've done okay by using the rest of my list to whittle their unit size down a bit.

Remember that Eldrad does NOT have eternal warrior. It's tempting to put the really hard hits on him for the re-rollable 3+ invul but be careful.

mercury14 wrote:
10 Wraithguard
1 Wraithseer, witchblade, conceal
Eldrad
Karandras

When you say wraithseer, you mean warlock, yes?

Wraithseers are Psychic Wraitlords and aren't legal in normal tournaments
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Eldar/ELDAR-WRAITHSEER.html

severedblue wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
10 Wraithguard
1 Wraithseer, witchblade, conceal
Eldrad
Karandras

When you say wraithseer, you mean warlock, yes?

Wraithseers are Psychic Wraitlords and aren't legal in normal tournaments
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Eldar/ELDAR-WRAITHSEER.html

Oops, yes Wraithseer should be Spiritseer. A Warlock that has the spiritseer upgrade.

As said, an Iyanden army is very fluffy. However, I doubt its effectiveness at the battle field. WG goes down when targeted by battle shells and WLs are very vulnerable to sniper rifles and poissoned weapons. I'd stay away from them unless you want a non- or semi-competitive list.

wuestenfux wrote:As said, an Iyanden army is very fluffy. However, I doubt its effectiveness at the battle field. WG goes down when targeted by battle shells and WLs are very vulnerable to sniper rifles and poissoned weapons. I'd stay away from them unless you want a non- or semi-competitive list.

Ditto this.

Not to mention lance spam, long fang spam, terminator spam, yada, yada, yada.

imweasel wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:As said, an Iyanden army is very fluffy. However, I doubt its effectiveness at the battle field. WG goes down when targeted by battle shells and WLs are very vulnerable to sniper rifles and poissoned weapons. I'd stay away from them unless you want a non- or semi-competitive list.

Ditto this.

Not to mention lance spam, long fang spam, terminator spam, yada, yada, yada.

Ditto. There are even more armies out there making short work with a fluffy Iyanden list.

An army with which is mostly T6 and T8 only really suffers vs Dark eldar or lists built to defeat it ... That said with careful use of fortune most of the unit will have a 3+ rerollable armour save and more often then not a rerollable 4+ cover save.

Tri wrote:An army with which is mostly T6 and T8 only really suffers vs Dark eldar or lists built to defeat it ... That said with careful use of fortune most of the unit will have a 3+ rerollable armour save and more often then not a rerollable 4+ cover save.

I'd include a Warlock w/ conceal to grant a rerollable 5+ cover save. You don't want a large WG unit to walk though cover slowing it eventually down.