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This discussion is being put forth to determine, whether within the confines of their own social, economic, and military structures, the Green Skins have displayed the ability for rational thought to a purpose and/or a goal.
Edit: Rational is going to be defined as anything based on or in reason or logic.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/23 02:56:28
CpatTom wrote:This discussion is being put forth to determine, whether within the confines of their own social, economic, and military structures, the Green Skins have displayed the ability for rational thought to a purpose and/or a goal.
Well...I guess you could say that Kommandos are somewhat rational. They actually use cunning and tactics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/23 00:25:46
What I have
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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Within the confines of their own social, economic, and military structures, the Greenskins have displayed the ability for rational thought to the purpose and goal of WAAAGH.
I mean, it's not like they irrationally conduct war, and certainly not within the confines of their own society, culture and economy, seeing as it's all they were made for, and everything they do is for war-making.
Seriously, bit of a strange question, in my opinion. Could you perhaps describe what you mean by "rational thought"? And are you referring to a purpose/goal other than war? Cause seriously, that's all they like doing.
Actually it is rational in a sense. People in the world do enjoy warfare in its various aspects from the streetfighter to cold-hearted assassins enjoy fighting for the sake of the adrenaline rush, there are also those who disagree with governments in all their forms. Most of the races/factions of 40k are examples in our culture taken to the extreme.
CpatTom wrote:This discussion is being put forth to determine, whether within the confines of their own social, economic, and military structures, the Green Skins have displayed the ability for rational thought to a purpose and/or a goal.
Well...I guess you could say that Kommandos are somewhat rational. They actually use kunning and tactics.
Anyways, what exactly is your thought of rational? As far as having goals, certainly. Meks want to build the biggest, baddest thing they can, warbosses want to build the biggest waaaagh, and ork boyz have the goal to krump some heads.
I wrote in another thread about how the Ork's background has changed over the years. Reading the 'Waaargghh the orks' book at the moment, these days they have nothing like the depth of background they once had. They have also changed quite a lot.
Specifically, the motivation of orks and how much intelligence they were said to have. Initially, orks were very much more like a more bestial humanity - our most violent traits increased combined with a general lower regard for life. A few older gamers will have read that orks were based on a guy in the design team who used to play about talking and behaving like a really rough sounding Londoner when he was playtesting the orks, and it was so appealing that the design stuck.
But at this time, the motivations were very much in line with what we might regard as a more base instinct of humanity and the acquisition of wealth - look at the very first 40k scenario in the Rogue Trader book - 'battle for the farm' where the ork captain is trying to get some treasure hidden there (how out of character does that seem now!), the 'freebooterz' supplement for 40k which is basically about ork pirates, and the other ork supplement. The orks in the stories in those books are very much more 'human' in their aspect, with more recognisable character traits. For many, I think this is why the orks held a special place in many gamers hearts.
But this has changed somewhat since then. Since Gav Thorpe added the 'mushroom origins' to orks, they have begun a progress towards being more bestial in nature. Now, rather than more recognisably human desires, in many ways they are more similar to what you might expect of Tyranids - i.e. they exist only to 'krump stuff' and travel using an instinctive sporing method). The moment they stopped needing some kind of basic society (essentially from the need to have the components of our own societies - networks, families, food gathering and the like) then a bit part of their motivations changed with them, and a great deal of the relationship between the player and their force on the tabletop, and how they relate to it, changed with it.
As such, I think a few of the older aspects of orks such as mercenaries, blood axes (in fact them doing anything other than running towards an enemy screaming) doesn't fit that well with their current concept. You can call it a 'dumbing down' (quite literally) but it is undeniable that their concept has evolved. Reading some of the older background books now actually makes me a little sad, you realise how much the orks have changed now that the 40k universe is so serious, and orks are one of the races that lost a great deal of their previous depth in this transition.
So orks are still 'rational' (shall we say have sentience?) in that they behave in a certain way, but over the years that has become increasingly instinctual - I think to the point now where there is a kind of dual-concept between different elements of their background - where some bits of fluff don't seem to fit with others.
Rational is going to be defined as anything based on or in reason or logic.
Pacific wrote:I wrote in another thread about how the Ork's background has changed over the years. Reading the 'Waaargghh the orks' book at the moment, these days they have nothing like the depth of background they once had. They have also changed quite a lot.
Specifically, the motivation of orks and how much intelligence they were said to have. Initially, orks were very much more like a more bestial humanity - our most violent traits increased combined with a general lower regard for life. A few older gamers will have read that orks were based on a guy in the design team who used to play about talking and behaving like a really rough sounding Londoner when he was playtesting the orks, and it was so appealing that the design stuck.
But at this time, the motivations were very much in line with what we might regard as a more base instinct of humanity and the acquisition of wealth - look at the very first 40k scenario in the Rogue Trader book - 'battle for the farm' where the ork captain is trying to get some treasure hidden there (how out of character does that seem now!), the 'freebooterz' supplement for 40k which is basically about ork pirates, and the other ork supplement. The orks in the stories in those books are very much more 'human' in their aspect, with more recognisable character traits. For many, I think this is why the orks held a special place in many gamers hearts.
But this has changed somewhat since then. Since Gav Thorpe added the 'mushroom origins' to orks, they have begun a progress towards being more bestial in nature. Now, rather than more recognisably human desires, in many ways they are more similar to what you might expect of Tyranids - i.e. they exist only to 'krump stuff' and travel using an instinctive sporing method). The moment they stopped needing some kind of basic society (essentially from the need to have the components of our own societies - networks, families, food gathering and the like) then a bit part of their motivations changed with them, and a great deal of the relationship between the player and their force on the tabletop, and how they relate to it, changed with it.
As such, I think a few of the older aspects of orks such as mercenaries, blood axes (in fact them doing anything other than running towards an enemy screaming) doesn't fit that well with their current concept. You can call it a 'dumbing down' (quite literally) but it is undeniable that their concept has evolved. Reading some of the older background books now actually makes me a little sad, you realise how much the orks have changed now that the 40k universe is so serious, and orks are one of the races that lost a great deal of their previous depth in this transition.
So orks are still 'rational' (shall we say have sentience?) in that they behave in a certain way, but over the years that has become increasingly instinctual - I think to the point now where there is a kind of dual-concept between different elements of their background - where some bits of fluff don't seem to fit with others.
This is quite interesting, and exactly the sort of thoughtful response I was hoping for. I only have a minute at the moment, but being a more recent, hmm... initiate, into the world of 40k. I have missed a large part of the development of the different factions, and as the universe and setting are easily my favorite part of 40k, I am always delighted to get a response that introduces a concept I had not previously known existed.
So, if I am comprehending correctly, the Orks were once a more base human type psychology, with an over arching (But not all encompassing?) desire to increase wealth through, well whatever it is they are good at (Weird, mek, etc).
Rational thoughts allow us to overcome the instinctual side of ourselves and perform at a higher level of cognition, so, do you think that the Orks Sentience is being eroded in this dumbing down of their character?
Orks are the most rational of all the races. It doesn't matter if you have a shiny medal, if I can kill you, I'm better than you. The mentality of the ork is as follows:
"Derez three tings I lurv: Krumpin, Drinkin, and More Krumpin!"
It's perfectly natural. They are what we are at our base level, stripped down.
Every Normal Man Must Be Tempted At Times To Spit On His Hands, Hoist That Black Flag, And Begin Slitting Throats.
Orks are logical and rational, within the confines of their culture. Reason as we understand it is based on assumptions. An assumption (when talking in logic terms) is a concept that is taken as a given. Orkish culture has very different assumptions than human culture, which is why they often seem 'crazy' to a human being. You can see a similar breakdown even between various facets of human culture, whenever two sides cannot find common ground due to an inability to comprehend the basis from which the other side is coming.
Jimsolo wrote:Orks are logical and rational, within the confines of their culture.
This is substantially correct.
You have to understand, to an Ork, there is nothing greater than war. War is their food. Their finest culinary art/ Their drink. Their alcoholic drink. Their fine wine. Their homebrewed moonshine. War is their designer drug. Their heroine, their cocaine, their pot (they're the aggressive, violent kind of stoner). War is their raison d'etre-- what god is to a religious person, war is to an Ork. What the greatest good is to a utilitarian, war is to an Ork. What love is to the Christian god*, war is to an Ork.
So is it any wonder that their rationality focuses on war, to the exclusion of almost anything else? Compared to war, nothing is important to an Ork. Going fast is only important so you can get to war faster. Group comradery is only important so that the war will be bigger. Technology is only important so wars can be more exciting. Orks sell themselves as mercenaries (yes, this is still canon) because it leads them to war and gives them prizes with which to use in war. Actions taken are only important if they lead to war, help you in war, or lead to making war better somehow.
That's what an Ork is. Pacific's response doesn't make sense to me-- it's certainly not based on modern lore.
*For those interested:
Spoiler:
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing." 1 Corinthians 13
"Tho I speak wit da tongue of 'umies and pointy-ears, if'n I have not war, I've become as a snotling clangin' on a battlewagon, or a broken shoota wif no bullets. An' tho I haf da gift of prophecy, an' undastand all mysteries, an' know more than da smartest smartboy; and tho I's da biggest and strongest, so that I could krump mountains, and yet if'n I has all of these... and I has no war? Den I am nothing." 1 Orkinthians 13
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/10/23 12:22:13
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Pacific's response is RT/2nd Edition, where the orks were a bit more light-hearted and human. I think you're correct in that war is the greatest possible thing in an Ork's life, but to view them too narrowly through that lens is to risk over-simplifying them. It's more like "getting laid" seems like the greatest possible thing in some people's lives, but they don't just run around doing it in the streets (hopefully). There are lots of smaller tasks and social interactions and other life goals that help get you there.
Even the current incarnation of orks have some kulture and structure to their lives. They have something of an economy, they have gods, they have social hierarchy, most of them probably have some sort of notional "job" to do when there isn't currently a big scrap going, even if it's just gathering resources like in Gorkamorka. Somebody's still hunting Squiggoths to eat, or building shanties to live in, or telling the grots to dig a new latrine. Every good greenskin loves war, but da boyz are probably lazy and shiftless and inclined to heavy drinking and crude humor and fistfights without the propa' leadership.
Battlefleet Gothic ships and markers at my store, GrimDarkBits:
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:It's more like "getting laid" seems like the greatest possible thing in some people's lives
No, it really isn't ilke this. Even if you argue that humans are driven by reproduction and everything is linked to that, to an Ork, reproduction happens naturally so he doesn't have to do anything.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Even the current incarnation of orks have some kulture and structure to their lives. They have something of an economy, they have gods, they have social hierarchy, most of them probably have some sort of notional "job" to do when there isn't currently a big scrap going, even if it's just gathering resources like in Gorkamorka.
Ork Teef-based Economy: Helps ensure the best Orks get the best stuff to make the best war, helps ensure that the bosses get control of the best vehicles so that they can make better war, helps ensure even the poorest Ork can get himself a slugga/choppa or a shoota and some bullets. Teef rot outside the body, losing value, making hoarding pointless as a goal (it'd just be stolen anyway).
Gods: Encourage war in two separate styles. Worship of these gods is through war.
Social hierarchy: Encourages just enough organization to ensure for better and more spectacular wars.
Ork "jobs": Ensure that war is able to be fought again and again and again. Gathering resources is done so they can build bigger and better war engines. Fungus beer brewing is done so that Orks can pass the time until the next war comes, or simply to give them a buzz so they enjoy a war more. Meks and doks need no explanation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/23 13:35:54
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Orks are, like most races, driven to evolve and improve. The difference mainly is that conflict (not just war, but any kind of fighting or struggle) is their means of evolving. It also means that its their form of government/authority (survival of the fittest/the strongest rule.) and that works for them because Orks are pretty uncomplicated, straightforward creatures. (Note this does not mean they are stupid - far from it really - they simply lack alot of the hangups and doubts and fears that a human has, and rarely understand them or question them.) Given their rapid healing and resistance to pain using conflict to evolve/improve themselves actually makes sense.
Orks are not rational or normal or sane by human standards, but that is a mistake some Imperials frequently make with the Orks - they assume they are stupid, bestial, unimaginative, irrational creatures (looka t the uplifting primer!) and underestimate them. Those who meet (for example) Ork kommandos are rapidly disabused of this notion.
I think my favorite part of Ork culture that is most rational is the use of teeth as a currency. It's no less insane than what happens In real life, but it also means that Ork society has no truly poor or homeless, and economic matters are very simple and straightforward (unlike, say, the US tax and financial/economic system. )
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:It's more like "getting laid" seems like the greatest possible thing in some people's lives
No, it really isn't ilke this. Even if you argue that humans are driven by reproduction and everything is linked to that, to an Ork, reproduction happens naturally so he doesn't have to do anything.
That was totally an analogy, not a direct comparison. In fact, a big part of why Orks are the way they are has to do with the fact that they DON'T worry about reproduction or child-rearing. I was just pointing out a similarity in the sense that you end up doing a lot of things in your life that are motivated directly by your "prime directive", and a lot of things that are motivated indirectly, but also some things that aren't even related at all. Ignoring that can make the whole ork race very one-dimensional.
Melissia wrote:
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Even the current incarnation of orks have some kulture and structure to their lives. They have something of an economy, they have gods, they have social hierarchy, most of them probably have some sort of notional "job" to do when there isn't currently a big scrap going, even if it's just gathering resources like in Gorkamorka.
Ork Teef-based Economy: Helps ensure the best Orks get the best stuff to make the best war, helps ensure that the bosses get control of the best vehicles so that they can make better war, helps ensure even the poorest Ork can get himself a slugga/choppa or a shoota and some bullets. Teef rot outside the body, losing value, making hoarding pointless as a goal (it'd just be stolen anyway).
etc.
Yeah, I know all that. Orks and their various sub-species are intentionally designed to be the perfect, endless war machine. But they also have to eat, and find shelter, and do quite a lot of resource gathering and processing, and basically end up spending a lot of time where the level of violence is relatively "low intensity". They must be capable of limited social interaction, and some serious long-term planning, if they are actually going to be a formidable war machine (even a cartoonish, bungling one). I know grots do a lot of menial or mentally-intensive work, but da boyz aren't just hibernating until the next battle, and they aren't completely slaughtering themselves either.
It's the same problem with Khorne Berzerkers, or the Reavers from Firefly. Show me what they actually do with their lives in the 99% of time they aren't in battle, how they sustain themselves and occupy their time. Even if it's animalistic, or inhuman, or boring, they can't be so completely one-dimensional. If you explain show that, you haven't created characters, you've created a plot device that conveniently opposes your protagonist whenever you want.
CpatTom wrote:So, is it safe to conclude that Orks are rational?
About as rational as the soccer hooligans they're based on, but yes.
Battlefleet Gothic ships and markers at my store, GrimDarkBits:
As far as I understand the fluff behind the orks its that they were made by the "Brain Boyz" (most likely the Old Ones) to serve one purpose and one purpose only and that is to act as their living biological weapons. They were made to value fighting and to be good at it, it doesnt matter if they win or not as long as its a fight. So in that sense a rational ork wouldnt really be a true ork. If an ork ever gained the ability to think rationally I think he would be more like an ork version of the Emperor.
"You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years, yet have little of account to show for you efforts. Order. Unity. Obedience. We taught the galaxy these things, and we shall do so again."
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:But they also have to eat, and find shelter, and do quite a lot of resource gathering and processing
That's grot work, not Ork work.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:but da boyz aren't just hibernating until the next battle, and they aren't completely slaughtering themselves either.
They're brawling, having brutal races (and placing bets), watching other orks brawl and have brutal races, buying and stealing stuff, attacking other Orks because they bought/stole something they wanted, and generally trying not to piss off Orks bigger than them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/24 23:11:23
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: d'etre[/i]-- what god is to a religious person, war is to an Ork. What the greatest good is to a utilitarian, war is to an Ork. What love is to the Christian god*, war is to an Ork.
So is it any wonder that their rationality focuses on war, to the exclusion of almost anything else? Compared to war, nothing is important to an Ork. Going fast is only important so you can get to war faster. Group comradery is only important so that the war will be bigger. Technology is only important so wars can be more exciting. Orks sell themselves as mercenaries (yes, this is still canon) because it leads them to war and gives them prizes with which to use in war. Actions taken are only important if they lead to war, help you in war, or lead to making war better somehow.
That's what an Ork is. Pacific's response doesn't make sense to me-- it's certainly not based on modern lore.
Yes, you need to read any of the 1st edition books - either Rogue Trader itself, or the later add ons (40k Compilation) and the Freebooterz and Waaaaggh! The Orcs books, which are literally filled with Ork lore. Even the 2nd edition codex continued to carry a lot of that tradition, although it started to change at that point to their current incarnation.
Really Melissia I think you have written things far more eloquently than they are thought of even by GW itself, which can be reduced to a single word (in their own language): 'Krumpin'
That's what basically 3 books full of background have been reduced to in their current incarnation. I suppose whether or not you prefer the idea of the older or the new version is subjective!
++EDIT++ I should note however that orks are not alone in this regard. Chaos has similarly been changed from it's previous incarnation as a force of 'disorder', to just 'evil', and again the background in the old 1st edition books has been dumbed-down in a similar manner.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/25 01:03:43
I don't actually think the old first edition books are the best. The newer Ork books are very important in establishing Ork theme too.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Orks are completely rational within the context of Ork society. Problem is that Ork Society is very irrational seeming to other races.
Dirty Harry wrote:I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?
CpatTom wrote:This discussion is being put forth to determine, whether within the confines of their own social, economic, and military structures, the Green Skins have displayed the ability for rational thought to a purpose and/or a goal.
Well...I guess you could say that Kommandos are somewhat rational. They actually use cunning and tactics.
You mean Takticz and Kunnigz, Orks seem to be rational in an 'Orky' way.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Yeah, I know all that. Orks and their various sub-species are intentionally designed to be the perfect, endless war machine. But they also have to eat, and find shelter, and do quite a lot of resource gathering and processing, and basically end up spending a lot of time where the level of violence is relatively "low intensity". They must be capable of limited social interaction, and some serious long-term planning, if they are actually going to be a formidable war machine (even a cartoonish, bungling one). I know grots do a lot of menial or mentally-intensive work, but da boyz aren't just hibernating until the next battle, and they aren't completely slaughtering themselves either.
This is mostly right. Their society functions in a very simplistic way of the bigger one tell the smaller ones what to do. However, that in turn has its own rational and system. An example is when Orks prepare for a particularly large Waaagh. Their entire race get devoted to the construction of massive war machines, not just gargants, but space ships, roks, and their more conventional weapons. This is not just left to the Meks or the grots because that would cause the whole process to take too long with the wasted manpower. Hence, the nobs will smack some heads and get the boys to help, who in turn will smack some grots to get them helping, but would also help because they follow the social status quo. Their culture may seem simplistic, barbaric and one dimensional, but it works because of that. Orks know what they want, and how to get what they want.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
It's the same problem with Khorne Berzerkers, or the Reavers from Firefly. Show me what they actually do with their lives in the 99% of time they aren't in battle, how they sustain themselves and occupy their time. Even if it's animalistic, or inhuman, or boring, they can't be so completely one-dimensional. If you explain show that, you haven't created characters, you've created a plot device that conveniently opposes your protagonist whenever you want.
With the possible exception of Kharn (I wonder how they even get him from planet to planet without him killing the ships crew.) Bezerkers are actually pretty normal. They seek to pay tribute to their god Khorne, and while just killing each other will offer blood to him, they know that offering the blood of a whole world is the greater tribute. They may be mostly rage filled fighting machines, but they also have a goal that they strive towards. Their relative normality is visible in the one chaos codex where some bezerkers are pinned by heavy weapons fire and they essentially act like normal troops until kharn comes and "rescues" them.
As for the Reavers, they are a special kind of psycho screwed up. They are so unhinged that they manage to convert people into joining them by screwing with them to extreme degrees. (I sometimes think the dark eldar could learn a thing or two from them.) I agree though that their down time seems a bit odd. However it is implied that they don't maintain their ships at all and basically drift in space until a victim comes within range. At that time I assume the thrill of the chase and the blood lust overtakes them and motivates them. Otherwise it wouldn't surprise me if they kind of went into a hibernation without any suitably violent stimulation between raids.
Being a good bad guy is like being a photographer, you have to wait for the right moment.
I'm not disagreeing with any of you guys, or established fluff. Just saying that, as you've both illustrated, these races have more subtlety to them beyond the basic themes that GW hammers home relentlessly in codexes and such. Lately it seems codex fluff has devoted more time to recounting of 6 or 7 different battles rather than going into adequate detail about the races themselves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/26 12:43:16
Battlefleet Gothic ships and markers at my store, GrimDarkBits:
Also note that the current codexes focus on the military aspect of each culture, where previous books spent more time on the entirety of their culture. That focus doesn't mean that orks no longer race buggies, or breed squigs, or drink fungus beer and have punch-ups. It just means that the codex focuses on military action pretty heavily.
Note that the Imperial Guard codex doesn't cover much about normal human society, nor does the Eldar codex have a lot on Eldar art, music, or literature. There's not much on how Eldar dress, or what recreational activities humans engage in, or anything.
Part of that is that 40K used to, despite being a tabletop war game, focus a little more on the roleplaying aspects of the game. The armies were smaller, individuals were detailed and equipped more specifically, and there was a lot of minor detail. Moving the game more towards a 'big battles' game lost that aspect.
I don't think that the Orks have really gotten dumber or simpler. I think that the codex (for better or worse) just focuses on them as a military force, and less as an alien culture. A lot of that information has been moved to things like Black Library novels and the like (sadly, not much for the Orks, but a good bit for the Imperium and the Eldar).
Da Butcha wrote:Also note that the current codexes focus on the military aspect of each culture, where previous books spent more time on the entirety of their culture. That focus doesn't mean that orks no longer race buggies, or breed squigs, or drink fungus beer and have punch-ups.
Noone's saying that they don't, only that all of that is geared towards making war, making better war, or staying in practice for the next war.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Well, I think really that is up for conjecture. As Da Butcha says, the background only focuses on the fighting, and there is nothing in the way of Black Library release (and is there likely to be?) other than the odd first person narrative from a Warlord's perspective or some such like. And obviously in those situations, again they will be fighting.
But, I guess whether you preferred the older rendition of orks, or the current one, is down to personal taste.
Personally I dislike it in for the same reasons that I find the changes in Chaos to be a dumbing down of what has come before, of making what had been a complex and multi-dimensional rendition of aliens/daemons or whatever gradually more shallow even as more is written to describe them. The quote, "Let no good deed go unpunished. Let no evil deed go unrewarded" in the current Chaos dex possibly marking the lowest point of background writing ever by GW*, presumably the character said that while throwing a bag of kittens into a river or writing evil messages to go inside fortune cookies. Chaos used to have a remarkably deep, and enigmatic background, not 'evil' per se, but an alternative worldview: Of disorder vs. order, of the ultimate possibility of freedom and expansion into the unknown at the cost of one's sanity and perhaps even one's soul. How many younger gamers today are aware of the Chaos icon, and what it means? Probably not that many, and certainly the current rendition of chaos is far removed from what it once was.
Not anything like as mundane as physical wealth or power, or such childish concepts of something being 'evil' for it's own sake - something which is revealed to be a contradiction in terms if it is examined in any kind of detail.
Anyway, sorry I didn't mean to write so much! Anyone who has read the old Chaos books, Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness will know exactly what has been lost along the way. It hasn't always been just cackling and skulls on spikes
* With the exception of the introduction of 'Arkhan Land', the person who designed the Land Raider and Land Speeder apparently.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 14:00:09
However, the same cannot be said of Orks. Orks weren't deep before, they were comical non-entities to be laughed at. For Orks, the quality of writing is increased, not decreased.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog