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I've heard some people calling the Tau "space communists" because of the Greater Good. I want to know other people's view on this since I kinda don't think the Tau are communist. Anyway, please don't treat this a political discussion. I just want to know how other people think about this, and why some people think the Tau are communist.

Its just usually used derogatarily by people who rant against the Tau. At a superficial glance, the concept of the 'Greater Good' seems like communism, and so they espouse the Tau as communists, in space, which shows their ignorance/insufficient knowledge/dont-give-a-damn on what the Greater Good and/or communism really is.

They aren't communist. They Utilitarian, Imperialist and Capitalist. the only vaguely communist thing if the Greater Good philosophy, which is still more utilitarian.

I know they're not communists, it's just that some people say they are. As far as I know, they're utilitarian, and very naive compared to other races, such as humans and eldar, or even orks.

Yeah, I kind of guessed you did, I fear I may have got caught in rant mode! Still, at least it'll tell those less in the know!

Thanks anyway. I just hope those who think the Tau aren't "grimdark" enough for 40k stop ranting against the Tau. They're kinda refreshing actually, a race who still thinks the galaxy is a bright place with no inkling of the carnage in the stars.

I always liked Tau because of them being naive. It kinda adds a sense of hope to the galaxy. It also helps they use other troops like Kroot and Vespids, which allows their army to have all sorts of looks haha

Good point about the Kroot and the Vespid. And in any case, mankind was probably like the Tau during the DAoT.

Earth Communism teach all Humans ( Men and Women ) that there is no boundaries between people ( borders etc... ), that we are all brothers and sisters. In communism all right of individual are respected and there are no rich and poor - all have the same amount of goods. In Communism people are not working for themselves, but communism teach us to "work for the Grater Good of all Mankind" ( like Soviets producing goods and giving a TON of them for free ).

Tau Grater Good is basically the same. Just expel Humanity and add Tau and alien races and you get almost identical Tau ideology. So they are "Space Communist", but only in ideological matter, in social matter - they are totally different.

If there is any communism in 40k, its in the Imperium

Actually, the Tau will accept any race as long as they accept the Greater Good. And no, they are not equal. The Ethereals are the ones who make all the important decisions.

Negator80 wrote:If there is any communism in 40k, its in the Imperium

Communism is Utopia, it is only that we Humans are "стоке", and we would each rather go over hundreds of people to get what we want. Communism is Utopa, but impossible on Eath today.


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Tadashi wrote:Actually, the Tau will accept any race as long as they accept the Greater Good. And no, they are not equal. The Ethereals are the ones who make all the important decisions.

Like I said, Communist only in ideology - socially they are more like Indian caste system.

No. I doubt all Tau get equal wages and there is trading to non-Tau worlds. Therefore they are not communist. Karl Marx has prooven it.

Obviously you didn't pay attention what I was saying.
Ideology is one thing but society is totally different.
We were communist state but we had PRIVATE sector, witch was very well organised and developed. So we were not communist at all?

Grater Good is their ideology, it has nothing to do with their society or cultural status. Same as the Christianity has no impact on our society today ( otherwise there would be no Internet porn ).

Tau maybe don't have red star on their foreheads, but they have same believes as communists.

It's more to do with 'COMMUNISM!' still being a reactionary auto-insult amongst Americans.

Communism is generally seen as a valid, though flawed philosophy around the world, at least by anyone who has a passing acquaintance with it's ideals.

However, for a long in the US, Communism was simply EVIL! BAD and EVIL and WRONG!

Which is obviously quite stupid...

Please do not use this thread to discuss politics and ideologies of the real world. I implore you in the name of the Emperor, Powers of Chaos, the Hive Mind, the Eldar Gods, the Orks Gods, the Greater Good, the C'tan Star Gods, or whoever it is you fight for in 40k universe.

ArbitorIan wrote:It's more to do with 'COMMUNISM!' still being a reactionary auto-insult amongst Americans.

Communism is generally seen as a valid, though flawed philosophy around the world, at least by anyone who has a passing acquaintance with it's ideals.

However, for a long in the US, Communism was simply EVIL! BAD and EVIL and WRONG!

Which is obviously quite stupid...

Yes. Because it clearly wasn't Churchhill who coined the term "Iron Curtain"?

The reason Communism was "simply EVIL! BAD and EVIL and WRONG!" is because true Communism has never actually existed. "Anyone who has a passing acquaintance with its ideals" knows that.

Anyways. Tau aren't Communists. They're, at best, a blend of fascism and socialism with a touch of feudalism thrown in for good measure.

Fascist...true...after all, if they win Dark Crusade (non-canon) they sterilize the humans on Kronus are replace them with Tau, Kroot, and Vespid. Obviously they're socialist, but feudalistic, I don't really know.

Brother Coa wrote:Earth Communism teach all Humans ( Men and Women ) that there is no boundaries between people ( borders etc... ), that we are all brothers and sisters. In communism all right of individual are respected and there are no rich and poor - all have the same amount of goods. In Communism people are not working for themselves, but communism teach us to "work for the Grater Good of all Mankind" ( like Soviets producing goods and giving a TON of them for free ).

This is Socialism. Communism is different in that it has a ruling class (the Party) and a dictator.

Tau Grater Good is basically the same. Just expel Humanity and add Tau and alien races and you get almost identical Tau ideology. So they are "Space Communist", but only in ideological matter, in social matter - they are totally different.

I'd say they were either socialist or utilitarian in ideology.

The ideal of Communism includes a fundamental equality of all with no class boundaries. One of the pre-requisites for ideal Communism was to be a revolution in which all class boundaries were torn down.

The Tau Caste System is counter to this ideal.

So for the Tau to uphold the ideal of Communism they would need to abolish the Caste System.

So the existence of the Caste System indicates that the Tau don't uphold the ideal of Communism but instead have another similar philosophy which does not preclude a Caste System. I believe the philosophy of Utilitarianism has been put forward as a reasonable alternative.

Tadashi wrote:Fascist...true...after all, if they win Dark Crusade (non-canon) they sterilize the humans on Kronus are replace them with Tau, Kroot, and Vespid. Obviously they're socialist, but feudalistic, I don't really know.

Thats the ussual relic fluff raping. The Tau would never do that.

The Tau can and have committed massacres in the past.
However, as a general rule these incidents are rare and in the case of the massacres, the perpetrator is usually censured by the Ethereals.

Space Crusader wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Fascist...true...after all, if they win Dark Crusade (non-canon) they sterilize the humans on Kronus are replace them with Tau, Kroot, and Vespid. Obviously they're socialist, but feudalistic, I don't really know.

Thats the ussual relic fluff raping. The Tau would never do that.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh...

Fantasy Flight Games has done the same thing. It's not Relic "fluff alteration"(stop saying rape. Seriously. Do not compare your precious army's background being altered to a serious crime which impacts victims heavily), as it actually has Games Workshop approval.

Greater Good and Communism are really extremely different and I don't think communism really served as any basis for the Tau's development in GW, unless GW staff have a really rosy and inaccurate view of communism itself. There's an absence of struggle, no dialectic, no explanation of history, and no idea that eventually government itseklf woukld be obsolete. Moreover the concept of Castes based upon ones birth is very anti-Marxist and the lack of a party to dictate all affairs. The Ethereals are not a party, they're more akin to a monarchy.

And there's nothing to indicate in fluff that the Tau would do that sterilization thing. The codex doesn't even mention those notorious "concentration camps" posters who want the Tau to look bad mention. Even at their worst (i.e. conquering worlds through the threat of orbital annihilation) they're still saints compared to any other 40k faction.

They're not fascist either. The Tau aren't ruled over by an absolute dictator (I think it's fairly certain Aun'va has constraints on his power from the other Ethereals), they're not overly militaristic (they view war as a last resort in their objectives), and are not racist or overly nationalistic. A Fascist society wouldn't seek to spread an ideal of equality (preferrably peacefully at that) to all peoples of the universe.

Really there's never been an Earth counterpart to the Tau Empire/Greater Good, though there are philosophies (Imperialism, Utilitarianism, etc.) that match it.

Harriticus wrote:
And there's nothing to indicate in fluff that the Tau would do that sterilization thing. The codex doesn't even mention those notorious "concentration camps" posters who want the Tau to look bad mention. Even at their worst (i.e. conquering worlds through the threat of orbital annihilation) they're still saints compared to any other 40k faction.

And GW seemingly was not happy with the codex portrayal, which was mostly Andy Hoare's "personal vision" of the Tau Empire.

The rest of the design team favored a more "grimdark" method for the Tau, namely in this way:
Retain the "clean lines" and outward hopefulness--but have that simply be the 'tip of the iceberg'.
You can actually see this in the FFG supplements, which are a better way to view the "day to day" aspects of races like the Tau. One particular piece of interest is the "disappearance of those humans who speak out against the Greater Good, never to be seen again".

They're not fascist either. The Tau aren't ruled over by an absolute dictator (I think it's fairly certain Aun'va has constraints on his power from the other Ethereals), they're not overly militaristic (they view war as a last resort in their objectives), and are not racist or overly nationalistic. A Fascist society wouldn't seek to spread an ideal of equality (preferrably peacefully at that) to all peoples of the universe.

They really don't "view war as a last resort in their objectives". They view it as another tool to spread the Greater Good.
They are racist, and they are INCREDIBLY nationalistic.

imo, the best way to think of the Tau and interstellar relations is "White Man's Burden", with the Tau acting as the fill-in for the White Man.

As for the camps and whatnot, as others have noted FFG has included them in Deathwatch and GW keeps an eye on what FFG puts out. Further, a simple read between the lines of the Tau codex suggested that something had to be going on to keep certain elements of "converted" populations in line. FFG's materials have merely made it clear what was going on behind the scenes.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" and all that.

Kanluwen wrote:[
And GW seemingly was not happy with the codex portrayal, which was mostly Andy Hoare's "personal vision" of the Tau Empire.

Meh, I consider Codex's the first and foremost source of canon, the one that's above anything else (be it BL books, video games, expansions, etc.) so I take what's in them the most seriously. I'm fairly sure GW agrees with my mindset.

The rest of the design team favored a more "grimdark" method for the Tau, namely in this way:
Retain the "clean lines" and outward hopefulness--but have that simply be the 'tip of the iceberg'.
You can actually see this in the FFG supplements, which are a better way to view the "day to day" aspects of races like the Tau. One particular piece of interest is the "disappearance of those humans who speak out against the Greater Good, never to be seen again".

This kind of stuff wouldn't surprise me, but again it still doesn't make the Tau especially cruel and they're still far better then any other 40k faction.

They really don't "view war as a last resort in their objectives". They view it as another tool to spread the Greater Good.

War is only used when negotiations for peaceful assimilation fail though, this is in stark contrast to every other faction which regularly employs genocide and/or war as a first resort.

-Imperium: Will wipe out any xenos world without mercy or negotiations for assimilation or co-existence.
-Eldar: More complicated, but they've regularly purged worlds for their own agenda without any kind of mercy or negotiation
-Necrons: In the old fluff they'd kill everything, in the new fluff you get Overlords with honor (oi vey) that try to negotiate but I imagine many more will just destroy a non-Necron world with everything on it on a regular basis.

And Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Orks go without saying.

They are racist,

No they aren't. The Kroot, Vespids, Demirug, etc. are assimilated and there's no indication they're second class citizens. Hell they even let the Kroot retain their cultural identity. Not the signs of a racist society. Race has no place in the Greater Good.

and they are INCREDIBLY nationalistic.

Not this either. They follow a philosopohy that is trans-national and trans-cultural. Anyone is welcome in the Tau Empire as a full part of the Greater Good. If they were nationalistic they woukld seek to have the Tau race/nation dominate everything, not the Greater Good.

The Caste system is important to the Tau, but they don't seem too strict when it comes to social situations. For Example the mission into Tau space with the Last Chancers - the humans are initially baffled by the informal dining arrangements aboard the Tau ship transporting them. The Inquisitor posing as a local system ruler at first takes great offense that someone else would be allowed to serve himself food before the highest rank present. The Tau aboard - several castes IIRC as there's both ship crew and diplomats - are equally baffled that the humans even care.

Harriticus wrote:No they aren't. The Kroot,

Viewed as uncouth savages whose practices are merely tolerated.

Harriticus wrote:Vespids,

Mind controlled into submission.

Harriticus wrote: Demirug,

We have no information on these to say either way.

Harriticus wrote: etc. are assimilated and there's no indication they're second class citizens.

Yeah there is.

There's no way for them to become, for example, an ethereal caste (IE, ruling class). Because they aren't Tau ethereals. Therefor they are second-class citizens.

Harriticus wrote: Hell they even let the Kroot retain their cultural identity.

The kroot don't trust the Tau enough to give up their cultural identity. Or their technology, which is more advanced than the Tau's in many areas.

Harriticus wrote:Not this either.

If another nation adopted the greater good but refused to bow down to the Tau, the Tau would invade them in a flash.

I dont share the opinion of them being communists (pun intended)