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Psienesis wrote:
This isn't the time or place for an in-depth discussion of religion, political theology, or anything of the sort of RL belief patterns, but what you've posted so far shows that you lack a fundamental understanding of the Christian faith, and its history, and also lack an understanding of how it, "it" being Judaeo-Christian faith, continues to shape the world and its societies today.

In short... Judaeo-Christianity doesn't forbid war. In fact, it's very much supportive of it, assuming God told you to go over there and kill every man, woman and child.

You got EVERYTHING wrong... ( God teach us to love each other, bot to go and kill in his name. )

Let's get back to the OP...


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BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Everything you wrote failed when you used an anime styled picture of the Emperor to insult Tau.

Unless the original portrayal of the Immortal God Emperor of Mankind, was a 19 year old kid named Patsuki

Oh god that snail is so cool.

I see your snail, and I raise you a thread closing (hopefully) meme as well....


See more on Know Your Meme

( God teach us to love each other, bot to go and kill in his name. )

Haven't read the Old Testament, have you?

Tau are more like vulcans than communists.

Majsharan wrote:Tau are more like vulcans than communists.

Not really. While Ethereals may be logical, most Tau get emotional, especially when said ethereal gets killed, or things get out of hand.

The normal Tau has a good life. Comparing it to South Africa is slowed. The tau are a united people working together. Mellissa why dont we talk about when you said that sisters of battle were faster then space marines?

The Tau aren't really communist. There are tenets of socialism and communism in their beliefs, yes. And they are Utilitarian, but it is important to note that Utilitarianism isn't a government, it's a philosophy.

Probably the best way to describe the Tau is a Fascist Utilitarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy with a rigid caste system that prevents vertical or lateral social mobility.

As far as integration of other races, "You can be who you are, as long as who you are is what we deem acceptable."

Otherwise you're Frzrap! almost as fast as a Commissar can say Blam!

The Romans thought they were bringing the light of civilization to the barbarians too, lol. The Tau are like less manly versions of the Romans.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Tau aren't really communist. There are tenets of socialism and communism in their beliefs, yes. And they are Utilitarian, but it is important to note that Utilitarianism isn't a government, it's a philosophy.

Finally someone that raised the level of this thread.

I agree with you when you say that the philosophy of the Greater Good presents some communist elements. Indeed, AFAIK, the Tau central (or federal) government controls large swaths of the tau society, especially the distribution of the workforce (the caste system) or its economy.
While the Tau don't seem to make use of a complete planned economy like the USSR, and favor interstellar trade with capitalist systems (i.e: the Rogue Traders and the IoM), they are anything but capitalists (as some ignorant and uneducated person claimed earlier in this thread).
To create capitalism, an economic and social system needs two things the tau don't have: a liberal market (and the tau economy is anything but liberal) and the pursuit of material wealth (and the tau are anything but materialistic).

However, I don't think they keep any socialist tenets in their political system, at least not on a marxist point of view, since their political system was not built in response to any economic and social inequalities nor is it meant to raise the social status of its people.

Probably the best way to describe the Tau is a Fascist Utilitarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy with a rigid caste system that prevents vertical or lateral social mobility.

I perfectly agree with you there, but I would add that there are a few important elements of communism in their social structure. So I'd say their beliefs can be compared to the "utopian socialists" from the 19th century (especially Cabet's Icarian Communism).


But I do not expect even a tiny fraction of the average W40K gamer to have a darn clue of what I'm talking about... So, yeah, let's get back to Coa's anime-version of the Emperor.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Tau aren't really communist. There are tenets of socialism and communism in their beliefs, yes. And they are Utilitarian, but it is important to note that Utilitarianism isn't a government, it's a philosophy.

Probably the best way to describe the Tau is a Fascist Utilitarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy with a rigid caste system that prevents vertical or lateral social mobility.

As far as integration of other races, "You can be who you are, as long as who you are is what we deem acceptable."

Otherwise you're Frzrap! almost as fast as a Commissar can say Blam!

The Romans thought they were bringing the light of civilization to the barbarians too, lol. The Tau are like less manly versions of the Romans.

Finally someone else that sees the parallels between the Tau Empire and the Roman Republic.

Just like the Romans the Tau are a tolerate and adaptable empire, but still capable of acts of what some on the receiving end would deem as tyranny. Freedom is a illusion in our world and the made up 40k universe, there are always governents in power or some kind of ruling athourity, and as far as the fluff of 40k I will take a more benign empire over a religion crazed xeno-phobic, witch seeing totalitarian regime, sorry I have been along for the whole ride of 40k from the begining, and just as I was growing weary of the grimdarkness, they introduced the Tau, and they kinda re-kindled my enthusiasim for this setting.

So stop trying to label them communist or socialist or Utilitarianism or any other ist or ism, just leave it that they are Tau and a alien empire , and wait to see what the next codex brings, hopefully it will not be to crazy of a divergance from standing fluff and keep the tech savy and expansionistic Tau flavor that has become the main selling point for me.

If anything I would like to see is the IoM coming to its senses and actually making some alliances and defence pacts, afterall there are much worse enemies in the 40k universe than the Tau, and most of them can't even be reasoned with.

Laodamia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Tau aren't really communist. There are tenets of socialism and communism in their beliefs, yes. And they are Utilitarian, but it is important to note that Utilitarianism isn't a government, it's a philosophy.

Finally someone that raised the level of this thread.

I agree with you when you say that the philosophy of the Greater Good presents some communist elements. Indeed, AFAIK, the Tau central (or federal) government controls large swaths of the tau society, especially the distribution of the workforce (the caste system) or its economy.
While the Tau don't seem to make use of a complete planned economy like the USSR, and favor interstellar trade with capitalist systems (i.e: the Rogue Traders and the IoM), they are anything but capitalists (as some ignorant and uneducated person claimed earlier in this thread).
To create capitalism, an economic and social system needs two things the tau don't have: a liberal market (and the tau economy is anything but liberal) and the pursuit of material wealth (and the tau are anything but materialistic).

However, I don't think they keep any socialist tenets in their political system, at least not on a marxist point of view, since their political system was not built in response to any economic and social inequalities nor is it meant to raise the social status of its people.

The Tau Empire isn't a free market with a desire for individual wealth?

You call someone ignorant, then display a huge amount of ignorance for Tau fluff almost instantly.

The Tau Empire is a group of different species and governments ruled over by the Tau race. Kroot are mercenaries for hire to the highest bidder, the humans under Tau rule have bustling business with the Tau Empire (Cain Novel) not to mention that the Squats retconned to the Demiurg, are largely believed to be in league with the Tau, another race that is booming with trade and a desire for individual wealth (space dwarves)

I agree with BeefCakeSoup, little to no info has been detailed about the Tau economy other than it is "bustling with trade ", I would guess that compitition between water caste merchants and vying for favorable trade rights and agreements with allied races would be one of the ways they fufill the greater goods aims.

Of course all of this would be done in a different spirit of free market and idividual wealth, and likely Tau taxes would be quite high, since that goes to support the whole greater good thing, all in all I would love to have some detailing of this side of the Tau empire, could be quite a interesting excursion.

Again we do not have sufficent facts to make a informed opinion, just hearsay.

I'd actually agree the tau aren't capitalist, at least not in the sense of the US. Their economic and market factors would be driven far more by (like all things) their greater good ideology - EG what is needed and what is important for the Tau Empire to succeed and thrive, rather than by what individiual members may want. There's certainly room for thriving trade and economics (especially since that is quite an effective avenue by which the Water Caste can infiltrate and manipulate invidiaul worlds - the Tau are quite good at suborning planets via trade and technology.) and for personal valuables, but a US-style economy (military and civilian) would not exist or be permitted under the Tau (not that this is automatically bad, mind..)

Trade, bartering and monetary systems existed before capitalism, and still do, independently.

The fact that the Tau trade doesn't make them capitalist.

Oh, the Tau culture isn't nearly noble enough to even come close to communism.

Here's a definition:
Communism is a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of a classless, moneyless, revolutionary and stateless socialist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production.

Tau are rigorously classed. Their social stratification is impermeable and more equal to slavery.

There is no common ownership. The Ethereals own everything, including freedom, something they do not grant to the Tau.

Here's another definition:
Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood. To achieve this, fascists purge forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration. Fascists advocate the creation of a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, discipline and family policy (such as eugenics). That state is led by a supreme leader who exercises a dictatorship over the fascist movement, the government and other state institutions. Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition.

Yep, that one is closer to the Tau Empire.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Trade, bartering and monetary systems existed before capitalism, and still do, independently.

The fact that the Tau trade doesn't make them capitalist.

But for all you know they are. You don't have a model of their government and civilian structure detailed enough to make an informative answer.

Instead of calling a fork a quad-pronged, steel crafted, stabbing apparatus, it's easier to just call it a fork. While those descriptions may fit in some capacity, they don't quite feel right being applied. The Greater Good isn't even a combination of beliefs people have posted so far, it's both much more and also much less, it's just The Greater Good.

DarknessEternal wrote:Oh, the Tau culture isn't nearly noble enough to even come close to communism.

Here's a definition:
Communism is a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of a classless, moneyless, revolutionary and stateless socialist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production.

Tau are rigorously classed. Their social stratification is impermeable and more equal to slavery.

There is no common ownership. The Ethereals own everything, including freedom, something they do not grant to the Tau.

Here's another definition:
Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood. To achieve this, fascists purge forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration. Fascists advocate the creation of a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, discipline and family policy (such as eugenics). That state is led by a supreme leader who exercises a dictatorship over the fascist movement, the government and other state institutions. Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition.

Yep, that one is closer to the Tau Empire.

well you are right in one area..Tau are not Communist.

But the rest you are incorrect in applying to the Tau.

Castes have ranks within them, and mobility within these castes is based on individual ability and inititive, if they are slaves then all would be the same and no advancement and resposibilities.
Being born within a caste may be somewhat alien to humans but Tau are not humans, its the way their race has been for over a thousand years and works for them.

No common ownership, state sources of this assertion, since I cannot find any saying the sate owns everything, or that the Tau own everything, or even the Ethereals own anything, seems you are leaping to conclusions to support your distaste for the Tau idea.
The Ethereals are noted as being advisors, usually fully heeded advisiors none the less, but still advisors, with no one ethereal being fully in charge, some may be senior or more respected within their caste but they do not have a single ruler.
The closest would be Aun'va but even he is not the sole ruler of the entire Tau empire, just the most revered and respected of his caste.

so they are not fascists either.

They are just Tau, fighting for their greater good, if you don't like them, dont play them, or read about them , or even comment on them, I dont like GK so I dont comment on them here at dakka.

Its fun to discuss ideas and opinions but just to basically rehash the same point over and over is very tiresome.

It is especially stated in the tau dex and several pieces of fluff concerning them that the tau culture is not turned towards the pursuit of personal wealth. It is not a political aspect of this race (the ethereals are not forbidding personal property AFAIK), but rather a cultural thing. The philosophy of the greater good is rather anathema to the pursuit of material wealth, as such the tau are definitely not materialistic, which means that describing them as capitalists is rather wrong.

On the other hand, I think we all agree that the tau are extremely imperialists, and Lenin said that "Imperialism is the latest iteration of capitalism", but again, I believe the tau follow their expansionist policy in response to their "Greater Good" philosophy, and not with the objective of getting their hands on new markets.

To further my point saying that the tau are definitely not capitalists, they are often compared to other races in their empire (like the demiurg or the kroot) by saying that these races show some traits absent with taus. For instance, in the Rogue Trader books, the kroots are described as being fairly materialistic and that this particular trait is being used by the tau to their own advantage by giving the kroots weapons and other valuable goods in exchange of their services. The demiurg themselves are described as being the ultimate space merchants or gold-hoarders (they're based on dwarfs after all), on the contrary to the tau.
See? I'm far from being a "tau fluff ignorant".

And I'm not a tau hater either. I kinda like the tau actually. I don't see why debating on some details of the tau society can be seen as tau hatin' by tau players.

It is true that tau communities are described as "bustling with trade and commerce", but as said by Veteran Sergeant, you can have trade and a prosperous economy without capitalism and under a planified economy with heavy state control (as I believe the case is with the tau).

Laodamia wrote:It is especially stated in the tau dex and several pieces of fluff concerning them that the tau culture is not turned towards the pursuit of personal wealth. It is not a political aspect of this race (the ethereals are not forbidding personal property AFAIK), but rather a cultural thing. The philosophy of the greater good is rather anathema to the pursuit of material wealth, as such the tau are definitely not materialistic, which means that describing them as capitalists is rather wrong.

Labeling them any system on Earth is wrong. I agree.

On the other hand, I think we all agree that the tau are extremely imperialists, and Lenin said that "Imperialism is the latest iteration of capitalism", but again, I believe the tau follow their expansionist policy in response to their "Greater Good" philosophy, and not with the objective of getting their hands on new markets.

This is an assumption and given that an entire caste is made up of traders, a large one.

To further my point saying that the tau are definitely not capitalists,[u] they are often compared to other races in their empire (like the demiurg or the kroot) by saying that these races show some traits absent with taus. For instance, in the Rogue Trader books, the kroots are described as being fairly materialistic and that this particular trait is being used by the tau to their own advantage by giving the kroots weapons and other valuable goods in exchange of their services. The demiurg themselves are described as being the ultimate space merchants or gold-hoarders (they're based on dwarfs after all), on the contrary to the tau.
See? I'm far from being a "tau fluff ignorant".

This is again a pretty large assumption.

And I'm not a tau hater either. I kinda like the tau actually. I don't see why debating on some details of the tau society can be seen as tau hatin' by tau players.

It is true that tau communities are described as "bustling with trade and commerce", but as said by Veteran Sergeant, you can have trade and a prosperous economy without capitalism and under a planified economy with heavy state control (as I believe the case is with the tau).

The Tau very well could practice any number of governments or economic systems and we couldn't really label them that well. You are saying they aren't capitalists, but have you ever seen capitalism applied on a galactic scale between unified races? The Tau are a ideologically unified empire and as such, they could practice Fascism and we would likely have a hard time recognizing it.

This is part of the reason they have a hard time fitting in, they see things in a different light from everyone. I'd wager they practice an alien form of capitalism, simply based on Cosmopolitan worlds frequently trading with the Imperium of Man and other races. But again, it could be any number or different systems mixed in, giving them a label a definite label or saying they totally lack a system is incorrect imho.

To sum it up: I think the Tau are alright.

Their views are commonly referred to as space communism in passing, usually in ranting, by non-tau players. But who wants to take the time to say they are a caste/feudalism-based society with open-market minded economic views, mixed in with some idealistic, Utopian precepts in regards to the nature of their existence, and geared towards a passive-aggressive crusade of expansion for the furthering of their goals and views? thats a mouthful.

In a Universe riven with bloodshed, and war, and grim darkness, and grim, and war, and darkness, they are alright. The Imperium conducts exterminatus when someone on a planet so much as says "heresy", or "chaos" in conversation. 1000 psykers are sacrificed daily to the astronomicon. Purpose-bred mutants are required to pilot starships. IG sends wave after wave of IG as meatshields for tanks... why not just build better tanks? Space marines can live for 1000 years, and they spend that entire time spilling blood, or flying to a new place to spill more blood. and those are the good guys. But the fact of the matter is, for humans, that is what it takes to guarantee (to whatever extent we can) that we continue to survive. Humanity was required long ago to shed themselves of all thoughts of hope, and naivety. The imperium feels that it cannot afford such thoughts, lest naivety beget destruction.

The Tau are awesome because, if only because they haven't been around long enough to know better, they refuse to embrace that reality. They can't and won't allow themselves to accept that thats just the way the 41st millenium is. They want it to be different, and rather than just dealing with it and resigning themselves to the ways of the Imperium, they still fight to prove that it doesnt have to be like that. In that way, their mission parallels communism. I don't think communism could EVER work, because we as humans are too imperfect to allow for a perfect society of equality, we just are. But the Tau, like the idea of communism, have the balls to say "you're right, it would be awesome. and so we are going to try. if we fail, we died trying for something that you were to pansy to shoot for".

As the Tyranid, Necron, Chaos, DE, and Ork threats stand poised to indiscriminately scour all non-self entities from the universe, I think the Tau and the Imperium could learn a lot from eachother. If you could fight someone who is upset with you for something you did, or you could fight someone who wants to kill you both for breathing.... am I missing something here? Imperium-Tau alliance FTW!!!.... and the Eldar if they ever get their gak together again. my 2 cents.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Labeling them any system on Earth is wrong. I agree. [/b]

Wrong? How else could we label them then if not with economic and social patterns we are familiar with??? Are you suggesting that we should go ahead and invent a brand new shiny economic theory to describe the structure of the tau's economy?
The Tau are a fictional race in a fictional universe written by sci-fi authors that based their script on some of the social systems they saw around them here on the real world.
The entire purpose of this thread is to debate which economic and social system the tau are closer to. Saying that "we can't label them with any system we know of" would end up killing the debate and closing this thread right now.

This is an assumption and given that an entire caste is made up of traders, a large one.

The water caste are diplomats first, traders, bureaucrats and administrators second, as stated in the deathwatch rpg and numerous other pieces of fluff on the tau (including the codex). In addition, for the tau, trade with other political entities is always made with the objective of achieving some political gain. For instance, the tau traded with the planet Taros to bring it in their sphere of influence and to later annex it in their empire. In most cases, trade between tau and humans also concerns pieces of technology, because the tau are not concerned with the financial wealth they could acquire with this trade.

These last points are not assumptions, their facts laid down in the tau fluff.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Trade, bartering and monetary systems existed before capitalism, and still do, independently.

The fact that the Tau trade doesn't make them capitalist.

But for all you know they are. You don't have a model of their government and civilian structure detailed enough to make an informative answer.

So I don't have enough info to make an informative answer, but you do?

It's just a game. I wasn't criticizing the Tau by saying they aren't capitalist. However, me saying you are wrong about them automatically being capitalist based on flimsy and incomplete evidence, doesn't make me wrong because I can't define what they actually are. I don't care much at all what they are. But the idea of them being capitalist when they function in a fascist oligarchy concerned entirely with the "greater good" instead of the kind of self serving societies that capitalism breeds (see: America and the rest of the West) doesn't seem like an automatic to me.

I know why people hate Tau: what is Grimdark about them?

Nothing.

They live peacefully, in good relations with their allies, trying to bring peace and understanding to the galaxy, offering better life to other races who join them, protecting them against foreign aggressor...

Seriously? If Tau ain't Grimdark at all, what are they doing in Warhammer 40k then?


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Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Tau aren't really communist. There are tenets of socialism and communism in their beliefs, yes. And they are Utilitarian, but it is important to note that Utilitarianism isn't a government, it's a philosophy.

Probably the best way to describe the Tau is a Fascist Utilitarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy with a rigid caste system that prevents vertical or lateral social mobility.

And this describes Tau society pretty good. They are still communist in ideology.

I can tell you exactly what is grimdark about them...

They have to exist in the Grimdark dominated universe and try and do things a bit differently, going against the odds and bucking the established status , while the hordes of grimy darky fans snipe at them for notbeing like everyone else, is the grimest and darkest existence the little blue guys could have.

I am sure they will get more in line with all this gothic neo-fascist empire grimdarknessing fluff, but hopefully not, viva la differance.

They dont live peacefully hence 1/5th of thier population are military, they work hard for good relations due to the fact of how dangerous the universe is, they bring peace but not nessicarily the kinda peace that appeals to everyone (Orks,Chaos etc. ), and yes they offer a better life to the less powerful they meet, strength in numbers (remember grimdark is always knocking on their doors), so in a sense they are what actually makes the darkness darker since there is some light but its a feeble flickering one in the vast ocean of all the nastiness.

Evil needs contrasts or it is just all differing forms of evil..boring , Tau do some pretty drastic things and I am sure the GD universe will force them to do more, but I am rooting for the Tau.

And no they are not Communist, They are Tau, get it right.

Tau aren't Grimdark enough, there is no genocide, no millions of killed, no treason, no threat of extinction, no brutalizing the population ( except Nimbosa, but that was only one commander who was killed by Tau later ). This is the Grim darkness of the far future and we can't have faction that is not Grimdark at all.

And Tau "Grater Good" = Earth Communism ideology.
So Tau = Space Communist.

Brother Coa

You have your veiws

I have mine.

end transmission.

(my troll detector went off)

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Brother Coa

You have your veiws

I have mine.

end transmission.

(my troll detector went off)

True enough...

Transmission ended.

(my fanboy detectors went off scale, again )

The fact that you agreed that a " Fascist Utilitarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy" means the Tau have a communist ideology kind of negates anything you have to say regarding things being communistic. What with you equating fascism to communism.

The Greater Good is in no way a communist ideology. At all. It is a utilitarian one built on the concept of unification and peaceful coalition. Communism is built on a dictatorship where everyone is equal, has no chance to advance or accrue material wealth and none of those things exist in the Tau Empire. Though they prefer not to, Tau can accrue personal wealth. The Ethereals are more advisors than anything, even if they are heeded more often than not. And within a caste, Tau can go up a rank so long as they're competent. Saying that because a Tau is in a Fire caste means he can't become an Ethereal = slavery, is like saying because I can't become US president = dictatorship.

Dytalus wrote:
The Greater Good is in no way a communist ideology. At all. It is a utilitarian one built on the concept of unification and peaceful coalition. Communism is built on a dictatorship where everyone is equal, has no chance to advance or accrue material wealth and none of those things exist in the Tau Empire. Though they prefer not to, Tau can accrue personal wealth. The Ethereals are more advisors than anything, even if they are heeded more often than not. And within a caste, Tau can go up a rank so long as they're competent. Saying that because a Tau is in a Fire caste means he can't become an Ethereal = slavery, is like saying because I can't become US president = dictatorship.

Tau are utilitarian society with communist ideology.

/thread

No genocide or grimdark methods, huh? Doubt it. They make use of behind-the-curtain methods to control human populations. The Ethereals use a form of subliminal messaging to control of other Tau.