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Threads like this display a level of ignorance that seems to go hand-in-hand with political discussion. I like to describe it as being "militantly uninformed."

First off, I was wrong.

Second off, anyone who has given them a single label is also wrong.



Tau government would be considered Greater Good. They wouldn't have a human counterpart because they are aliens from a vastly different planet and history. So even though I like to think of them as Capitalist Imperialists, they are in fact, simply Greater Good. You can't say well, Socialism has "this" in common with Communism, so it must be Communism not Socialism.

They are an alien Empire that defines their political views as The Greater Good. While it may mirror forms of human government, their simply isn't a counterpart on Earth. We don't have a nation made up of different species where things like mind control that may or may not exist. So calling them Communist like Brother Coa did or calling them Imperialist like I did is wrong.


They are aliens, their government is Greater Good, by comparison to Earth and humans, it is several different beliefs rolled into 1 and implemented in several different ways.

I think that may be the closest thing to a "right" answer there is to Tau government. They do draw several distinct parallels to human governments, but fall short of being defined by any single category.

Meh, I consider Codex's the first and foremost source of canon, the one that's above anything else (be it BL books, video games, expansions, etc.) so I take what's in them the most seriously. I'm fairly sure GW agrees with my mindset.

They don't.

No they aren't. The Kroot, Vespids, Demirug, etc. are assimilated and there's no indication they're second class citizens. Hell they even let the Kroot retain their cultural identity. Not the signs of a racist society. Race has no place in the Greater Good.

The Vespids might be subject to mind-control helmets. We, the omniscient readers, have not been given enough information about these devices that permit communication between Tau and certain Vespid commanders to say for sure. However, all of the mentions of these devices are all very sinister-sounding.

Not this either. They follow a philosopohy that is trans-national and trans-cultural. Anyone is welcome in the Tau Empire as a full part of the Greater Good. If they were nationalistic they woukld seek to have the Tau race/nation dominate everything, not the Greater Good.

Who rules the Tau Empire? The Ethereals. Who are the Ethereals? The highest caste of Tau society. How do you become an Ethereal? You don't, you're born as one. Ergo...

Tadashi wrote:I know they're not communists, it's just that some people say they are.

And some people say Obama is a socialist, lol.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I know they're not communists, it's just that some people say they are.

And some people say Obama is a socialist, lol.

Yeah, some people are rather silly like that. If Obama became prez of a socialist country their people would cry foul at how right wing he is.

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote:No they aren't. The Kroot,

Viewed as uncouth savages whose practices are merely tolerated.

The tau are evil because they despise the kroot so much they deny to subjugate them? Are you serious?

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Vespids,

Mind controlled into submission.

The Codex disagrees with you and describes the Vespid as soldiers valued as equals. But maybe you are not interested in facts.

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote: Demirug,

We have no information on these to say either way.

Wrong. We know that Demiurg are not part of the Tau Empire but free and valued allies. See BFG rules.

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote: etc. are assimilated and there's no indication they're second class citizens.

Yeah there is.
There's no way for them to become, for example, an ethereal caste (IE, ruling class). Because they aren't Tau ethereals. Therefor they are second-class citizens.

The caste system is a special social tool to avoid Mont'au. The special role of the ethereals is par of this system. This system makes no sense for other races and there is absolutely no intention to force this structure on other races. And even if we assume Tau ethereals having absolute rulership, in reality this rulership is not executed in an absolutistic way.

It is true that no other race can become a member of the Tau race, neither can a cat become a dog. Does this make cats second-class dogs? Obviously not.

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote: Hell they even let the Kroot retain their cultural identity.

The kroot don't trust the Tau enough to give up their cultural identity. Or their technology, which is more advanced than the Tau's in many areas.

The Kroot are independent and also have biological necessities requiring them to act outside the tau Empire. Kroot technology is more advanced only in one area, and that only because they ate a big mec with knowledge in warp technology (which is genetically encoded with orks). Kroot respect tau and the bond both races have. One Kroot even became general in the Tau Empire army. But Kroot are also notorical pragmatics, following their own guidelines. And tau have no interest in subjugating Kroot, so let them do their thing.

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Not this either.

If another nation adopted the greater good but refused to bow down to the Tau, the Tau would invade them in a flash.

Funny that we have several examples where this hasn't been the case and not one case supporting this. Maybe it is just wrong and the designers didn't lie about their intentions when they said::

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

BTW have a look at my sig concerning the Tau=commies question.

I don't think Tau practice utilitarianism. Simply because they both call for wars of conquest and advocate peaceful resolution. Conflicts arising out of annexation really don't follow a guideline of peace, when the owners of said planets are diplomatic neutrals/enemies/allies.

I certainly could be wrong though. I can honestly admit I don't have the years of education it would take to fully understand all these different governments/beliefs. I think that GW did mix it up a bit on purpose though, to make the Tau a more progressive alien race with human idealism practiced as actual government.

Edit: On that note, this thread saddens me. Such a great a great fan base, I really want to see Tau get some TLC here pretty soon. My favorite race by far. They are the good guy villains in the galaxy who keep marching onward despite being viciously punked by all other races.

Except the Imperium of Girls, whom the Tau constantly own hard.

To me, they make the most sense as a monarchy. Seeing as they have a caste who rules by birth.

Brother Coa wrote:Obviously you didn't pay attention what I was saying.
Ideology is one thing but society is totally different.
We were communist state but we had PRIVATE sector, witch was very well organised and developed. So we were not communist at all?

Grater Good is their ideology, it has nothing to do with their society or cultural status. Same as the Christianity has no impact on our society today ( otherwise there would be no Internet porn ).

Tau maybe don't have red star on their foreheads, but they have same believes as communists.

That is socialist not Commmunist.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I certainly could be wrong though. I can honestly admit I don't have the years of education it would take to fully understand all these different governments/beliefs. I think that GW did mix it up a bit on purpose though, to make the Tau a more progressive alien race with human idealism practiced as actual government.

You are like Tau: a green apple in a galaxy of big red apples.

Edit: On that note, this thread saddens me. Such a great a great fan base, I really want to see Tau get some TLC here pretty soon. My favorite race by far. They are the good guy villains in the galaxy who keep marching onward despite being viciously punked by all other races.

I thought that by your comments the Necrons are your new butt-buddies since they cleansed a Tau planet without any resistance. Tau are not marching onward, they halted in almost everything now and sitting still. And they are far from the good guys, they are in fact as bad as Chaos or Dark Eldar. Telling people lies about good life and unifying galaxy to hide their quest for conquering it, they remind me on Spanish conquerors in America who almost exterminate all natives living there or submit them to the Christianity by using lies and promises of peace.

Except the Imperium of Girls, whom the Tau constantly own hard.

Kronus, Kaurava, Lagan, Zeist, Nimbosa crusade, Gravalax.... and taking undefended world with 10.000 inhabitants with force of thousands FW is not "owning hard" by me. Tau attack only once an large Imperial world ( Nimbosa ) and were almost owned by one Guard Regiement, they also start killing a LOT of civilians to make place for their own people ( good guys yeah right ). And for the finale ( the thing about owning ):

Eumerin wrote:imo, the best way to think of the Tau and interstellar relations is "White Man's Burden", with the Tau acting as the fill-in for the White Man.

As for the camps and whatnot, as others have noted FFG has included them in Deathwatch and GW keeps an eye on what FFG puts out. Further, a simple read between the lines of the Tau codex suggested that something had to be going on to keep certain elements of "converted" populations in line. FFG's materials have merely made it clear what was going on behind the scenes.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" and all that.

I agree. The Tau Codex states that the Tau were apalled by the barbaric customs of the Kroot, but believe that the Kroot would grow more civilized by contact with the Tau. Basically this implies that the Tau consider their civilization as superior to others. In a way they're just as ruthless as other races; they're just not as obvious.

Kroothawk wrote:The caste system is a special social tool to

... oppress the masses to the benefit of the Ethereals, because it is a very strict and effective system which keeps ruling power out of the hands of non-Tau and in the hands of the Ethereals. Really, Tau are more oppressive in this way than the Imperium is, at least the Imperium accepts capable humans from all walks of life in to its ruling class-- depending on their deeds in life and their talents and skills. The Tau only accept ethereals... capable or otherwise, non-ethereals cannot enter the ruling ethereal class.

Brother Coa wrote:Grater Good is their ideology, it has nothing to do with their society or cultural status. Same as the Christianity has no impact on our society today ( otherwise there would be no Internet porn ).

Lol, really? I don't think anyone believes this.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Grater Good is their ideology, it has nothing to do with their society or cultural status. Same as the Christianity has no impact on our society today ( otherwise there would be no Internet porn ).

Lol, really? I don't think anyone believes this.

Yeah, that's a load of nonsense. I can tell you for damned sure that Christianity has a huge impact on our society. I deal with it on a day to day basis.

Melissia wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Grater Good is their ideology, it has nothing to do with their society or cultural status. Same as the Christianity has no impact on our society today ( otherwise there would be no Internet porn ).

Lol, really? I don't think anyone believes this.

Yeah, that's a load of nonsense. I can tell you for damned sure that Christianity has a huge impact on our society. I deal with it on a day to day basis.

I meant that it doesn't have that much of an impact it had like in the middle ages.
If we would be strictly Christian society there would be no wars, no one would be lying, everyone would respect their parents, we would all go to church every day 3 times...
Clearly we are not doing all that and we are in fact doing a LOT of opposite that church is telling us. ( like Gay vending, cloning, openly defying God, killing others who don't share same faith, incest... )
But, as always, you have fanatic zealots who puts blind faith above logic and kill everyone that isn't believing like him.

Brother Coa wrote:I meant that it doesn't have that much of an impact it had like in the middle ages.
[...]
If we would be strictly Christian society there would be no wars, no one would be lying, everyone would respect their parents, we would all go to church every day 3 times...

Is that honestly your view of the middle ages?

You need to go to some remedial history classes, dude.

Brother Coa wrote:I meant that it doesn't have that much of an impact it had like in the middle ages.
If we would be strictly Christian society there would be no wars, no one would be lying, everyone would respect their parents, we would all go to church every day 3 times...
Clearly we are not doing all that and we are in fact doing a LOT of opposite that church is telling us. ( like Gay vending, cloning, openly defying God, killing others who don't share same faith, incest... )
But, as always, you have fanatic zealots who puts blind faith above logic and kill everyone that isn't believing like him.

Yes, because everyone was happy back when the Chuch had major control over people's lives. I mean, who doesn't like the suppression of knowledge, persecution of scientists, killing others who don't share the same faith (please don't tell me you don't know that the Church advocated this), corruption in its upper echelons, family members getting sent to participate in 'Holy Wars', murdering women as witches...

Middle Ages and Church =/= Christianity and 10 commandments.

And what I am trying to say ( I see it's pointless to give examples ) is that in advanced societies ( like ours now ) Religion doesn't have much power, furthermore it's power is falling down since more and more people are turning to science and technology who works and offers solution then some mystical fary tale about some "God" watching over us and punish us for our every crime.

It's just like Tau and Grater Good, they implement their idea toward other races. But use advanced technology to get things done rather by waiting for people to actually accept their believes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I meant that it doesn't have that much of an impact it had like in the middle ages.
If we would be strictly Christian society there would be no wars, no one would be lying, everyone would respect their parents, we would all go to church every day 3 times...
Clearly we are not doing all that and we are in fact doing a LOT of opposite that church is telling us. ( like Gay vending, cloning, openly defying God, killing others who don't share same faith, incest... )
But, as always, you have fanatic zealots who puts blind faith above logic and kill everyone that isn't believing like him.

Yes, because everyone was happy back when the Chuch had major control over people's lives. I mean, who doesn't like the suppression of knowledge, persecution of scientists, killing others who don't share the same faith (please don't tell me you don't know that the Church advocated this), corruption in its upper echelons, family members getting sent to participate in 'Holy Wars', murdering women as witches...

Same as Communism: great idea but poorly implemented in reality ( Mr. Stalin and Mao for example ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I meant that it doesn't have that much of an impact it had like in the middle ages.
[...]
If we would be strictly Christian society there would be no wars, no one would be lying, everyone would respect their parents, we would all go to church every day 3 times...

Is that honestly your view of the middle ages?

You need to go to some remedial history classes, dude.

How I see middle ages?
Church ruling everyone, sending armies to Crusades to "liberate" the wealth of the holly lands.
Wars in every turn, new great empire raise ( Britain, Spain, Turkey ) while other fall down ( Eastern Roman Empire ).

Like I said: idea and theory is one thing - reality is other. Idea may be perfect like communism, but it's pointless as ong as people use that idea to get to power.

The Ten Commandments aren't faceted enough to deal with a society. They say you can't kill, but what about self-defence or to save another? The idea of not wanting something another has is absurd, it's part of humanity to be greedy.

And yet, by your definition, the middle ages are ruled by Christianity. Your inherent self-contradiction is showing, Coa.

I thought the Caste system was a callback to India?

Space communism is just a simple trigger phrase to ill-informed teenage American boys.

To sum up;

kenshin620 wrote:I thought the Caste system was a callback to India?

Probably not, since IIRC there's at least a degree of stratification (which may have evolved in modern times, I'm not all that well versed in it now.) Except for the Ethereals, the four main castes are all more or less equal.

Tau society can and does borrow elements from various political systems, but it doesn't really mirror any particular one in any great deal. There just seems to be some desire to pigeonhole it in a nice neat category (political version of tropes?) It's kinda like how the Imperium will sometimes get called "Space feudalism." - although that also depends on your definition of feudalism, since I've seen several of them floating about.

Melissia wrote:And yet, by your definition, the middle ages are ruled by Christianity. Your inherent self-contradiction is showing, Coa.

I didn't include the whole world in my point, just Western Europe.
A whole world is totally different story.

But please - enlighten me if you wish.

But please - enlighten me if you wish

This isn't the time or place for an in-depth discussion of religion, political theology, or anything of the sort of RL belief patterns, but what you've posted so far shows that you lack a fundamental understanding of the Christian faith, and its history, and also lack an understanding of how it, "it" being Judaeo-Christian faith, continues to shape the world and its societies today.

In short... Judaeo-Christianity doesn't forbid war. In fact, it's very much supportive of it, assuming God told you to go over there and kill every man, woman and child.

Brother Coa wrote:

So Tau:



Where are your Etherials now?[/spoiler]

Everything you wrote failed when you used an anime styled picture of the Emperor to insult Tau.

Unless the original portrayal of the Immortal God Emperor of Mankind, was a 19 year old kid named Patsuki

Fire Warrior was a terrible game.

That's my contribution to this philosophical discussion.

Campbell1004 wrote:Fire Warrior was a terrible game.

That's my contribution to this philosophical discussion.

Bad game is bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdRbiJ29VkM

Melissia wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:The caste system is a special social tool to

... oppress the masses to the benefit of the Ethereals

I know you are from Texas, but in most other countries bringing peace to a people occupied in a killing frenzy is not considered evil oppression. Are you still grumpy that the ethereals didn't use weapons?

Kroothawk wrote:I know you are from Texas, but in most other countries bringing peace to a people occupied in a killing frenzy is not considered evil oppression.

Yes, I'm sure you believe apartheid in South Africa where a ruling class/race of people denied all other classes/races of people the right to rule was not oppressive.