Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have been doing very well for myself while playing my GK army, that was until this past Tuesday. I finally met a equal foe across the table side(Battlefield) Space wolves, with lots of thunderwolf cav. These things hit me like a truck, All of them having Storm Shields, a few with hammers..it was just a mess. I threw my GK termy unit with 4 halberds and a hammer W/ A Xenos Inquisitor w/psyconades. (The dice were 100% against me lol) Them wolves simply at me alive. My thoughts after the game were to change out termies and add in Purifiers back like i normally run.maybe.. but i am thinking That possibly simply the dice favored the wolves. So i ask you all in Dakka land.. What are you thoughts of dealing with TWC w/ a 3+ 3+(stormshield) saves..with 2 wounds each while using Grey knights.

... why are you actually trying to hurt them in CC? They're one of the most powerful CC unit in the game, but they also cost a bomb. Simply over whelm them with small arms fire.

Agreed, but if you have to fight them then they hate Force Weapons, halberds, psychotroke grenades, etc.

Tri wrote:... why are you actually trying to hurt them in CC? They're one of the most powerful CC unit in the game, but they also cost a bomb. Simply over whelm them with small arms fire.

I tired shooting the hell out of them, wasn't working. I thought..eh..i have Force halberds i'll be fine...man was i wrong.

Ok what are you using in your army? If possible what was he using? ...and we'll try to see where you've gone wrong

2 squads of termies 4 halberds 1 hammer each.

2 Xenos Inquisitors PA hammerhand Psyconade'

10 purifiers 8 halberds 1 hammer 1 psycannon

3 storm ravens TLLC TLMelta

2 VenPsydreads

Dreadknight Sword/Psycannon

I know im going to catch flack for no psycannons, I've done very well last 3 games I've played this list with. Given vs wolves or any other SM list i should have more Psycannons, but i don't tailor lists. I don't remeber everything in his lists except the following...

3 LF squads all missiles

2 Laz backs w/ squads inside (his scoring units)

2 squads of 4 TWC. Each unit had a lord with TH/SS combo each one had a different rune blessing or whatever it is (re roll moral and Eternal warrior..he had 2 lords) another wolf with TH/SS 1 with a meltabomb and SS, and 2 with Chainswords and SS.


Everything else i could handle just fine, These wolves just threw me off, i should of simply ignored them until i had to deal with them but eh..you live and learn

(The dice were 100% against me lol)

THIS is your problem. It's not like your list needs more tailoring or that TWC are ovapowerehdd, it's just that your dice betrayed you. Small arms fire and especially psycannons (hit on 3+, wound on 2+, coupled with the amounts of shots you get and rending it's a great way to seriously weaken TWC) are good weapons to soften Thunderwolves up, T5 and a 3+ save are not that great when faced by volume of fire. Once a TWC-model is down to one wound it's not that scary anymore, just a PA-marine with +1T (easily negated by casting Hammerhand twice) and 5 attacks (and still 50+ pts per model). Nothing halberds can't handle and your list got all of these things.

I guess the best advice we can give you is "better luck next time" (because without luck you'll lose even with a tailored list).

EDIT: You are right, you should squeeze in more Psycannons (and exchange the HPC on the Dreadknight for a Flamer, the mega gattling is overpriced for what it does) for an all-comers environment.

Arrathon wrote:2 squads of termies 4 halberds 1 hammer each.

2 Xenos Inquisitors PA hammerhand Psyconade'

10 purifiers 8 halberds 1 hammer 1 psycannon

3 storm ravens TLLC TLMelta

2 VenPsydreads

Dreadknight Sword/Psycannon

I know im going to catch flack for no psycannons, I've done very well last 3 games I've played this list with. Given vs wolves or any other SM list i should have more Psycannons, but i don't tailor lists. I don't remeber everything in his lists except the following...

3 LF squads all missiles

2 Laz backs w/ squads inside (his scoring units)

2 squads of 4 TWC. Each unit had a lord with TH/SS combo each one had a different rune blessing or whatever it is (re roll moral and Eternal warrior..he had 2 lords) another wolf with TH/SS 1 with a meltabomb and SS, and 2 with Chainswords and SS.


Everything else i could handle just fine, These wolves just threw me off, i should of simply ignored them until i had to deal with them but eh..you live and learn

want to keep playing this an all comers list? want more Psycannons? Simply turn turn those venerable dreads in ordinary dreads. It'll give you 100pts extra for those much needed guns. Only other thing I've got to ask is how you manage with only two units of troop (unless those are actually 10 man units that you combat squad)

Yea i've already figured that one, the list i have is my attempt to make a half assed Alpha strike list. messing around with a few ideas of wanting to try something new, I came up with this..

Xenos Inquisitor x2
PA hammerhand Psyconade' 4 Servo skulls

Purifiers 10 (x2)
7 Halberds 2 psycannons 1 hammer

grey Knight SS 10 (x2)
7 halberds 2 psycannons 1hammer (i plan on combat squadding these guys if needed for objectives and deep striking. Just a test idea)

2 rhino

2 stormraven
TLLC TLMM

2 Psyfledreads

Those strike squads with halberds are costing you an extra 70 points (total) that you could spend on something better. They pay too many points and don't have enough attacks to justify halberds. Their real job is fire support, which they are excellent at. You only assault in an emergency (charge or be charged) or to mop up an already weakened unit. Halberds aren't going to tip the scales in fights like that enough to justify the cost. Those units are most expensive than the purifiers, which means you are paying a higher price for a weaker unit.

Also if you do plan on deep striking them, consider fitting in a teleport homer somewhere in the list to make them land on target. getting 10 marines to fit in an open space is next to impossible with average scatter rolls and the amount of terrain on most boards. The only place I can see to fit it is the stormravens.

If you're insistent on running them with halberds, call them purifiers and run crowe instead of the inquisitor.

Bruteboss wrote:Those strike squads with halberds are costing you an extra 70 points (total) that you could spend on something better. They pay too many points and don't have enough attacks to justify halberds. Their real job is fire support, which they are excellent at. You only assault in an emergency (charge or be charged) or to mop up an already weakened unit. Halberds aren't going to tip the scales in fights like that enough to justify the cost. Those units are most expensive than the purifiers, which means you are paying a higher price for a weaker unit.

Also if you do plan on deep striking them, consider fitting in a teleport homer somewhere in the list to make them land on target. getting 10 marines to fit in an open space is next to impossible with average scatter rolls and the amount of terrain on most boards. The only place I can see to fit it is the stormravens.

If you're insistent on running them with halberds, call them purifiers and run crowe instead of the inquisitor.

Yep really drop the inquisitors and run three units of purifiers.

purifiers with halberds(or terminators) will wreck TWC face, assuming you roll average.

Each unsaved wound you cause should be a TWC down and dead(assuming you pass your psychic test)



Light em up with psycannon and stormbolters before combat, they charge in, you go first because of halberds, and you should kill the rest even if you only get 2-3 wounds past the SS.

Grey Templar wrote:purifiers with halberds(or terminators) will wreck TWC face, assuming you roll average.

Each unsaved wound you cause should be a TWC down and dead(assuming you pass your psychic test)

he still has a 3+ invo save. When i hit models with more then 1 wound i always use Force weapon (instant death) but if they make their invo..it negates the ID so no big help on me.

@Bruteboss You are 100% correct, I never thought of it this way. I will re work things as i have 2 weeks before i play again.

Statistically, the TWC will fail just enough saves to allow you to kill them.

You only activate the Force Weapons once you have caused an unsaved wound.


Purifiers with halberds are practically the only unit that can rip TWC a new one.

So..i must be a complete idiot and have been doing Force weapons wrong this entire time.. So i wait to cause a unsaved wound,once that is done..activate force weapons then Poof..Enemy model is dead?

NFWs work very different from normal Force Weapons.


The order of operations is this.

1: roll to hit

2: roll to wound

3: take applicable saves

4: First unsaved wound is caused(First meaning the first wound in inititive order)

5: Take psychic test.

6: if test is passed, this wound and all other wounds in this and all following inititive steps caused by the models in the unit armed with NFWs will cause Instant Death.


You do NOT take the test unless you have caused a wound. This is nice because if you totally whiff you arn't risking the psychic test.

If an inquisitor activates hammerhand +has rad grenades then any s4 attacks wound twc on a 3+ from the inquisitor's squad with the ability to activate force weapons.

Hammerhand is also easier to get off than force weapon because of the wolf tooth necklace that negates stuff on a 5+.

Thats no easier then force weapons, both will be negated on 5+, and its far better to kill a model outright then wound on 4+ as opposed to 5+.

Rad grenades gives a similer effect and you can still use the Force Weapons.

OK with everyone's help, i think i might have it...

Crowe

Purifiers (x2 10 man units the same)
7 halberds 2 psycannons 1 hammer

Purifiers 10
4 psycannons 4 halberds 1 hammer (will Combat squad these guys)

Razor back
Rhino

Landraider Crusader x2
Multi Melta

2 Venerable Psyfledreads

The rhino will sit near the 4 psycannons on a objective. the razor back will move around the 2nd half of the shoty purifiers unit. The 2 Cc units of Purifiers will have the land raiders pushing up the middle. the dreads are obvious so i don't need to explain their duty. I like the feel of this list and how it has evolved from what i normally run, and the tid bits i posted.

My Nob Bikers beat TWC and eat their lunch.

Grey Templar wrote:Thats no easier then force weapons, both will be negated on 5+, and its far better to kill a model outright then wound on 4+ as opposed to 5+.

Rad grenades gives a similer effect and you can still use the Force Weapons.

Wolf tails only work on psychic powers that effect the wearer or his unit. Hammerhand has no affect on TWC or the wolf lord, it affects the GK unit by changing the GK's stats. Wolf tails don't work against buffing powers such as hammerhand or the quickening.

Hammerhand also buffs the psycannons.

Math hammer for 10 purifiers with 4 halberds, 4 psycannons, and 2 hammers charging TWC

12 halberd attacks, 12 no force weapon attacks, and 6 hammer attacks
6 halberd hits, 6 regular hits, and 3 hammer hits.

Hammerhand results
3 halberd wounds, 3 regular wounds on I4, and 2.5 instant deaths on I1

Force weapon
2 Halberd wounds (2/3 change of ID after wolf tooth for 1&1/3 ID), 2 regular wounds, and 2.5 hammer wounds on I1 (1.6 ID)

Once wolf tail talisman is taken into effect it's about 2.5 instant deaths from S10 hammers compared to 3 instant deaths from force weapons.

Other factors to consider.

Is it the worse case scenario where the TWC has a wolf lord with wolf tail talisman, SS, and saga of the bear (Gives eternal warrior) If that's the case purifiers don't have enough hitting power to deal with the squad unless it's very weakened.

The likely scenario for a winning GK charge is that the TWC have been shot at for a turn or 2, ate a baiting unit, and are being charged after being shot. In that likely scenario most of the TWC will be down to a single wound (Psycannons do a lot of wounds to TWC, but it's going to be 1 per model due to wound allocation shenanigans) Due to multiple storm shields present and the lack of multi wound models the extra 2 wounds caused by hammerhand>the possibility of instant deathing an unwounded model, especially since the force weapon hits will be allocated to the wounded models.

By that interpertation, it won't work on force weapons either.


the force weapon psychic power targets the users attacks, they do not target the victim. They mearly act upon the users attacks to cause them to cause Instant Death.

I must be the worst Grey knight player alive, How does Hammerhand effect the psycannon? Did you mean the model holding the Psycannon or the Str of the Psycannon itself? And where can i find this information in the codex?

Hammerhand, nor any of the other powers, effect their ranged weapons

They target the models strength, which is the statline Str.

That's what i thought. Schadenfreude's post confused me. O well, again i thank you guys for the info. hopefully these bits of info will help me meeting the wolves again.

Tank shock seems to work the best for me... I just focus tanks on the nearest unit and the TWC are so fast sometimes they just run right off the board.

rpricew wrote:Tank shock seems to work the best for me... I just focus tanks on the nearest unit and the TWC are so fast sometimes they just run right off the board.

... right 10/36 odds that they fail that moral test. While 28% is quite good it does leave more then 70% odds that you've just fed them a tank (which they can just ignore for better targets). Even if they do fail you then have to manage to escort them off the board.

Tri wrote:

rpricew wrote:Tank shock seems to work the best for me... I just focus tanks on the nearest unit and the TWC are so fast sometimes they just run right off the board.

... right 10/36 odds that they fail that moral test. While 28% is quite good it does leave more then 70% odds that you've just fed them a tank (which they can just ignore for better targets). Even if they do fail you then have to manage to escort them off the board.

Have you actually tried what I said or just rolled some dice or tapped some keys on the calculator?

I assure you if you have multiple vehicles, and use multiple tank shocks making sure you move more than 6" then the TWC will usually break and run. Since they fall back 3D6 that's an average of 14" which moves them way back from whatever they were trying to kill.

I'm speaking from experience using Razorbacks and Tau Devilfish.

Is it a sure win? Well, what is in this game. But it is a maneuver that your opponent probably won't see coming at least the first time you do it. And it gives you another chance to put the game on your terms as opposed to theirs.

Paladin deathstars eat them alive.

Fafnir wrote:Paladin deathstars eat them alive.

Right. TWC was the "it" swaggered unit....until the palatinates came out. Now TWC doesn't stand a chance.