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Empire Duellist 75 points
WS6•BS5•S4•T3•W3•I4•A3•Ld8

Wargear:
Duellist’s Pistol
Duellist’s Rapier
Light armour

Duellist’s Pistol
A duellist’s pistol is only used in combat, and has no ranged value.
In combat, it counts as an extra hand weapon.

In a challenge, the Duellist may choose to shoot his opponent before the fight begins.

Duellist’s Rapier:
Gives +1 to WS and I during a challenge, and a 5+ ward save



Special Rules:
Dueller
“If our swords do cross this battle…”

Dueller:
An empire duellist must always issue and accept challenges. In addition, he re-rolls all failed rolls to hit and to wound, even with his pistol.

“If our swords do cross this battle…”
If the duellist is carrying the Duellist’s Rapier, he may choose a single lord or hero model in the opponents army. When the dueller issues a challenge to a squad that this lord or hero is in, the Chosen model MUST accept the challenge.

There is no way of avoiding this challenge, and all special rules and equipment to the contrary are ignored.

Options:
The Duellist may:
Take heavy armour – 3 points
Full plate armour – 10 points
Exchange his rapier for…
A shield - 2 points
A second Duellist’s Pistol – 5 points
Exchange his Duellist’s pistol for…
A shield – 2 points.

NB: the model may only have a single shield.

WS7(with the Rapier benifit) seems a little too high for a piddly human. maybe make him base 5, so 6 with the rapier.

But all things considered its and ok set of rules. Unfortunantly I don't think he will do very well against most things you would want to challange. He will be good at charging in and challange sniping wizards though.

But if you end up fighting any WoC, brett, beastmen, or ogre characters you can kiss this guy goodby. He'll definitly get pasted in any of those situations, and against WoC before he even makes his attacks.

I agree, bring his WS down to something more human, and you've got an interesting little combat character, something the Empire badly needs.

From there I'd really look at bringing the price down. I mean, you don't see human combat characters for a reason - they go squish a lot and don't do much against the enemy. I really can't see people spending 75 points on a guy - that's an extra 3 ranks of halberds I think maybe around 50 points, with heavy armour standard.


Other than that, it looks pretty good. Maybe give the duellist pistol a rule, because as it is you'd always want the rapier as is gives the ward save and WS bonus.

Oh, and why T3 but 3 wounds? Empire hero characters are universally T4 and 2 wounds, why is this guy less tough, but also hardier? That just seems an odd thing.

No, he can't shoot his opponent before the fight. Not if you're making him a duelist. That's not a duel. That's something in the Skaven list.

I really don't like rules that say, "no matter what any other rule says this rule trumps that." Not only does it get confusing, but it cheapens other books. GW RARELY issues stuff like that, but I don't think it belongs here from a player. But I'd be cool with something like if the target refuses the challenge the target takes a Str 5 hit (which can be saved) from a parting shot and the Duelist can fight as normal.

Finally, he's too cheap for his points. He's a weaker version of Skulltaker and Prince Apophas, but he's 75 points cheaper than the first and 60 cheaper than the 2nd. He should be more.

DukeRustfield wrote:No, he can't shoot his opponent before the fight. Not if you're making him a duelist. That's not a duel. That's something in the Skaven list.

Granting it a rule doesn't mean allowing it to shoot before the fight. It could mean fixing the to hit number at 3+ (a useful option against high WS opponents), or it could mean giving the guy AP or something.

I assumed it was a regular pistol shot. If he said it was something else, it wasn't clarified.

I think DukeRustfield is talking about this line:

"In a challenge, the Duellist may choose to shoot his opponent before the fight begins."

And as far as that not being a duel is concerned...a traditional pistol or sword duel wasn't something done on the field of combat. So we'd best be making some changes. I mean, just 'cause he's a duelist doesn't mean he's got to fight fair. And even if you want to argue that he does fight fair, it's not his problem that the Scar Vet brought a club to a gun fight. Just like it's not the Chaos Lord's problem that the Duelist brought a gun to a dragon fight.

Beyond that...

- losing his pistol (slightly better than 2 attacks in a challenge) to gain +1 armour seems silly. I wouldn't even bother with the option.

- likewise, I can't imagine seeing anyone taking a second pistol to lose +1WS, I, and a 5+ Ward. But I like the idea. Maybe he can choose a second pistol without losing his rapier, for something like 12pts?

- his cost does seem a bit high.
@DukeRustfield: he is indeed a weaker version of those guys. A much, much weaker version. He doesn't get re-rolls or Heroic Killing Blow or any of that other stuff. And even if he is, point-for-point, a better buy than those Special Characters, the most important factor is how often he'd be used. Does this guy improve some Empire lists? Yes. And that's a good thing. But will two out of three players spend 25% of their points on these guys? I doubt it.

If you bumped him down to WS5 and made him T4, I'd say 65pts would be fair.

If he had almost nothing but his WS 6 and S4 A3 W3 he would be more expensive than he is. Heroes are more expensive than rank-and-file, because they are Heroes.

This guy has like Maneater stats. A Brusier, which has maybe +2 in attributes on this guy, costs 105 without the special rules.

He's definately undercosted. I think there's a law if you got 3W you have to cost >100.

Warpsolution wrote:I think DukeRustfield is talking about this line:

"In a challenge, the Duellist may choose to shoot his opponent before the fight begins."

And as far as that not being a duel is concerned...a traditional pistol or sword duel wasn't something done on the field of combat. So we'd best be making some changes. I mean, just 'cause he's a duelist doesn't mean he's got to fight fair. And even if you want to argue that he does fight fair, it's not his problem that the Scar Vet brought a club to a gun fight. Just like it's not the Chaos Lord's problem that the Duelist brought a gun to a dragon fight.

Ah okay, I wasn't sure if DukeRustfield was commenting on the post above his or to the OP, and guessed wrong.

Fair enough on your point, too, there's nothing saying these guys have to be fair and honourable fighters. In fact, the more I think about it, the less I like the rule about one selected opponent having to accept the challenge, even if the duellist is a fair fighter, there's no reason his opponent needs to be.

Instead, how about the duellist getting rerolls to hit against one selected opponent, to account for him learning that specific opponents fighting technique? It'd be an interesting way of building a dedicated character killer without relying on the surprise of assassins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:If he had almost nothing but his WS 6 and S4 A3 W3 he would be more expensive than he is. Heroes are more expensive than rank-and-file, because they are Heroes.

Sort. They're more expensive because, being heroes, they have better stats, and are capable of dishing out a lot more damage than your rank and file troops, and frequently give big boosts to the rank and file units they lead.

He's definately undercosted. I think there's a law if you got 3W you have to cost >100.

Well, the Empire general is 80 points, and he's got three wounds. More to the point, this all sounds like a good reason to speculate on why a duellist has a number of wounds that only Lord level characters get in the Empire book, and not for him actually costing 100 points.

Rank and File troops cost much less than hero/lord versions of the same guys with roughly the same stats.

If you're going to do a challenge, you do a challenge. Having a shot before the challenge is a pretty big departure. And it could totally hose unit champs and such.

DukeRustfield wrote:Rank and File troops cost much less than hero/lord versions of the same guys with roughly the same stats.

Are you honest to God, seriously claiming that characters just cost more because they're characters, that their price has nothing to do with actually being more effective?

Why on Earth would anyone take a character, under your system?

If you're going to do a challenge, you do a challenge. Having a shot before the challenge is a pretty big departure. And it could totally hose unit champs and such.

There's still initiative based combat. Someone has to go first. Unit champions regularly get wiped in challenges before they've had a chance to fight.

Because characters have special rules like LOS and challenges and refusing challenges and inspiring presence and can get magic items. They have their whole own behavior in the books that normal units can't do.

Heroes/Lords are never worth their pure killy costs and Wounds compared to rank-and-file troops (that is straight combat characters). You can see that in any book.

But you add characters to units and they make the unit much more powerful, the character protected, etc.

If you could never join characters to units and didn't need to have a general or got any of those other rules, or magic items, you'd be much better getting 2 Maneaters than a Bruiser, it's right there in the stats. And that goes for every other book I've seen.

DukeRustfield wrote:Because characters have special rules like LOS and challenges and refusing challenges and inspiring presence and can get magic items. They have their whole own behavior in the books that normal units can't do.

The ability to issue and refuse challenges is only a useful ability, insofar as it protects or directly attacks other characters. Something that wouldn't be of any value if characters weren't more deadly than standard troops.

The ability to take magic items is the ability to increase a character's killing potential or survivabilty. Which is one of the ways in which characters end up more deadly and tougher than troops.

Heroes/Lords are never worth their pure killy costs and Wounds compared to rank-and-file troops (that is straight combat characters). You can see that in any book.

Only if you take a very superficial view of killing potential. You need to consider that 30 halberdiers in 10x3 formation dish out 30 attacks at most... but 60 halberdiers in 10x6 still only dish out 30 attacks. Having a character at the front of the unit allows you to bump up that killing power in a way that more and more troops just won't.

But you add characters to units and they make the unit much more powerful, the character protected, etc.

The unit protecting the character is only important... if the character is worth protecting ie has greater damage potentional.

If you could never join characters to units and didn't need to have a general or got any of those other rules, or magic items, you'd be much better getting 2 Maneaters than a Bruiser, it's right there in the stats. And that goes for every other book I've seen.

Note that if you're deciding between a character and bumping a unit up to a full supporting rank... it is madness to buy the character and no-one ever does that. It's when deciding between having an extra rank standing in the back as extra wounds or for steadfast, and buying a character that it becomes an actual question.

Plain and simple, characters are worth what they're worth when they raise a unit's killing potential by enough, or grant the unit a special rule or ability, or raise it's leadership. Something like that, a real, direct improvement in unit ability. Simply being a character, in and of itself, isn't worth anything (outside of maybe having a premium for being able to carry a magic item, and even that's a pretty dodgy piece of game design).

Read what you quoted in the first quote of your post and the first sentence of your last paragraph.

Yes, you have rephrased what you said into what I said. And omni-quoted to make it near impossible to read.

Oh, come now. It is not. Let's be civil, Duke. He said what you said, yes. But he's saying that the point proves his argument, not yours.

...and I'd have to agree.

The whole idea that a character is a worse buy than an equal number of Rank and File just doesn't cut it with me. It's not always about killing as many points as you spent. With a lot of characters, it's about locking those points away while taking -some-from your opponent.

Example: a Dwarf Lord with a 1+ re-rollable armour and 4+ Ward costs a minimum of 270pts. That's 27 Dwarf Warriors with great weapons.

To kill those Warriors, I would need to send in...216 attacks from my Skavenslaves. To kill said Lord, the number goes up to...3,888 attacks, I believe.
Even if the math isn't right, it's something like that, no? I mean, he's killing around 3 guys a turn, where his friends are taking out 15, but as Sebster said, that's a frontage of 10 versus 1.

I still think the coolest thing here is the shot before the challenge. It's that swashbuckling, chandelier-swinging sort of attitude that all Empire characters, what with their puffy sleeves and big hats with bigger feathers, seem to emanate. "Ha-ha! Have at thee, good sir! Now, away!" That kind of thing.

But you're doing what I said and giving him magic items. If you took that same Dwarf Lord and left him base he wouldn't remotely be worth 11 Ironbreakers. He would be exceptionally worse. He would do a lot less damage with a lot less wounds.

It's the special rules that allow that. Not his combat stats. His combat stats are garbage for their cost.

DukeRustfield wrote:But you're doing what I said and giving him magic items. If you took that same Dwarf Lord and left him base he wouldn't remotely be worth 11 Ironbreakers. He would be exceptionally worse. He would do a lot less damage with a lot less wounds.

It's the special rules that allow that. Not his combat stats. His combat stats are garbage for their cost.

Which brings us to the game design silliness of charging for the option to take magic items, instead of just making those magic items worth what they cost.

Nor are Dwarven lords taken because of their killing power compared to regular troops. They're taken because they grant LD 10 in a 12" via Inspiring Presence. Which is something this minor combat based character does not have.

Not sure what you mean about the magic items.

My point though, even if he doesn't have magic or great LD, is that heroes/lords have a huge...tax on them. If you take a unit that has EXACTLY the same stats and options as a Core/Special/Rare and say it's a Hero, *Poof*, you double its cost. At least.

I mean we all know Special Characters are almost NEVER worth their cost. There's like a handful in the entire Warhammer universe. It's the fluff of them and sometimes some special rules that make playing DIFFERENT, though generally not competitive.

DukeRustfield wrote:Not sure what you mean about the magic items.

There's an idea you see in most every GW game, and you often hear it repeated by GW games design staff, that units should have a higher base cost because they have lots of options. That is, troops should cost an extra point because they have the option to take a magic banner, or a range of weapon options. Which is nonsense, because the existance of an option only has a value when the actual cost of taking it is less than the value of the item. Instead, the option should be free, but the cost of actually taking the banner should reflect what the banner is worth.

My point though, even if he doesn't have magic or great LD, is that heroes/lords have a huge...tax on them. If you take a unit that has EXACTLY the same stats and options as a Core/Special/Rare and say it's a Hero, *Poof*, you double its cost. At least.

I think you're undervaluing the value of having some extra killing potential at the front of a unit that's already got enough troops, and ignoring a lot of the special rules characters have the improve the overall unit. I do agree that in general purely combat focussed characters are overpriced.

I mean we all know Special Characters are almost NEVER worth their cost. There's like a handful in the entire Warhammer universe. It's the fluff of them and sometimes some special rules that make playing DIFFERENT, though generally not competitive.

Sure, but the answer to that is to bring the costs of special characters down. It isn't to get people to overprice homebrew heroes.

sebster wrote:Sure, but the answer to that is to bring the costs of special characters down. It isn't to get people to overprice homebrew heroes.

I evaluate what people post in the context of the current game. If they want to make a HUGE marathon post and rewrite every Special Character in the game, that's one thing. But saying every other character is wrong and mine is right I don't think is going to work. There's a different cost structure around every type of unit. It actually does make sense--if everyone has to adhere to the same structure.

But the fact you see so few SC's probably says they need a rework in general.

...right. Like the above. This character, the Duelist, should be comparable and fair compared to what's seen on the tabletop. If you bring this guy to a friendly game, you'd best let your opponent do the same, right?

So we compare him to regular dudes and to the current edition trends, and we say "this guy should cost X and do Y", not "well, he's like this character, who sucks, so he should cost about that much".

Core being crappier than Special does make sense if everyone has to adhere, as you say. But that's the point! This forum section is for attempts to fix that. Core troops are general. Special are, well, specialists. Rare are the weird ones. That's how it should be.

Honestly, Duke...I can't really recall a time when you responded to a suggested rule with anything beyond "this is too good" or "why is this necessary". I say, why not?

Warpsolution wrote:Honestly, Duke...I can't really recall a time when you responded to a suggested rule with anything beyond "this is too good" or "why is this necessary". I say, why not?

But come on, really. Nearly every proposed rule that is written has a ward save and/or killing blow. I've done a lot of alpha/beta testing for games, both board and computer. And was even offered a few jobs doing game design, but they pay crappy and I would have had to move. Which isn't to say I'm big pants awesomesauce, but I've been around.

I like seeing balanced games. A few things I've learned about players is that they are really smart in that they quickly see what is best and quickly gravitate towards it. Not only that, if given the chance they will make "their" unit/team/faction/whatever the most powerful. Even if ultimately it kills the game because it becomes dull and predictable.

But just compare this guy to Bragg the Gutsman or, heaven forbid, Chakax. Those two also come fairly close in purpose and abilities, but are 3-5 times more expensive. Not 30% but 300-500%.

If it's just friendly stuff...well, it doesn't really need our comments other than "Cool!" But if someone honestly wants to know if it's balanced, and I assume they do, I'm going to answer. I honest injun don't think it's balanced.

I think most people make things in the proposed rules section because they think there is a problem somewhere or they would like some fluffy stuff.

yeah, its true that most people can't write balanced rules for their stuff, but thats why they have posted them. They would like advice on what would make it better.


Only beat down on something if it truly is lame and dumb and OTT(unless its been deliberately made that way) like an Empire Wizard character being better then Teclis or having a rediclously powerful combat character that can rip apart ogres with his bare hands.

And Bragg is not the best example to use here. He is so horribly overcosted and underpowered it really isn't funny, which is a problem with GW that they can't really cost characters. A better example to illustrate your point would be someone like Bugmen who can actually be useful.

Grey Templar wrote:And Bragg is not the best example to use here. He is so horribly overcosted and underpowered it really isn't funny, which is a problem with GW that they can't really cost characters.

I know, but that's the game! If you make an SC that's not that, he becomes OP as he's costed on a different structure. I started with Skulltaker and Prince A, who are both more reasonably priced. He's not as good as either of them, but he's still undercosted. I pulled out the heavy guns just to make a point how undercosted he could really be if you took worst case.

I generally don't give people suggestions on how to change, which is also why it make come off as just pure NO NO NO. Part of the fun is coming up with your own ideas and I don't know what their goal is or their fluffery or purpose or what. I consider it creative writing, and no one wants to be told how their story should go. I just try and see if it's too good. A FEW times I've seen stuff and said, this is too bad or overcosted.

Who's, S4 T3 and has 3 attacks that re-roll to hit?
DE Assassins.
90 points.
Way better stats, way better options.
I'd say that 75 points is very fair for the dualist.
The only thing I'd drop is the re-rolls to hit (take warrior preist for that, WS6/7 is enough), and make the pistols:
Dualist Pistol: 1 use only, make 1 S4 armor piercing attack with ASF, in addition to normal combat. May carry up to 2 pistols.

-Matt

Duke, like you say- players gravitate towards what's good. So what if nearly all characters on this forum have a Ward save? Furthermore, you mention all these special characters that no one fields and compare them to this regular ol' character and basically say, "see, he's better than this crap over here. Which means he's too good".

I think Matt makes a great point; the Assassin is a good comparison. Much cheaper, much better. But still not seeing much playtime.

Who cares if the stuff on this forum is better than all the stuff no one uses? It's optional. Temporary. The moment 9th edition/a new Empire book turns the Duelist here into an unstoppable killing machine, I'll stop being okay with the OP fielding him.

And that's an awesome idea for the pistols, actually. That way, they're not quite as good, and High Elves can still cut him down before he pulls the trigger. Makes sense without it being too complicated or good/bad.

Warpsolution wrote:Duke, like you say- players gravitate towards what's good. So what if nearly all characters on this forum have a Ward save? Furthermore, you mention all these special characters that no one fields and compare them to this regular ol' character and basically say, "see, he's better than this crap over here. I think Matt makes a great point; the Assassin is a good comparison.

/we're kind of polluting this poor guy's post with game theory but...

There is balance/theme within an army book. And balance across all army books.

Like Lizardmen have Scaly Skin and Daemons have wards and Dwarfs have armor. But people tend to cherry pick the best concepts from all books and add them to their guys regardless of whether it makes sense or jives with their general theme. Like if someone came up with a Core Beastman unit that was a BS 5 archer with 36" range multi-shot, flaming KB unit. I'd be like, there's a reason Beastmen aren't uber archers. That unit might work in an elf army, but it doesn't amazingly make sense in Beastmen. Certainly not Core.

And the balance across all army books. Again, I compare them to what exists in that book and what exists in all books. If there's only "crap" to compare them with, then think of ways to buff all heroes so they aren't crap. But adding more Teclis units just makes the game more broken one army at a time. (Not that this guy is Teclis, just using that as an example.) Because if there's only crap, then that's all your opponents have to choose from and that's overpowered. Like I think there was a thread (or two) a while ago where we batted around the idea of giving ALL monsters a 5+ armor save if they didn't already have a ward/regen/scaly skin or armor. Just a little something to make monsters less meh.

I don't know DE's. I don't have them or Wood Elves.

You don't think a foppish swashbuckling duelist fits with the Empire's tone or strategy? I think they don't have much in the way of fight-y characters, but they've got some. And this would offer a little more.

And some things--like Ward saves--are across all army books. You give your characters protective items and offensive ones. No surprise there.

Teclis, Slann Mage Priests, the Doom Rocket, huge blocks of Marauders, etc.; these things are all super efficient and basically always worth the investment. And that's a problem.

But there's another level of "good". Gutter Runners with poisoned slings, Treekin, Grudge Throwers--that kind of stuff. They're good. Often worth their points, but not as much of a given as the above. Ideally, this game would be nothing but this sort of thing. The Duelist fits into this category, if not below it.

Warpsolution wrote:You don't think a foppish swashbuckling duelist fits with the Empire's tone or strategy? I think they don't have much in the way of fight-y characters, but they've got some. And this would offer a little more.

I didn't mean the fluff. I meant the meta. Like Beastmen aren't ranged. Ogres (non-heroes) aren't mega WS. Dwarfs aren't high movement. Regardless of the fluff reason.

I think the fluff duelist is great. I was just questioning the rules/cost. He's basically a guy you can use to protect you from challenges. Or maybe harrass the enemy champs with the same. He can beat pretty much any unit champ and give some combat heroes a good fight. He could take on a Black Orc Big Boss pretty easily and would beat (for cost) a Bruiser.

DukeRustfield wrote:
I think the fluff duelist is great. I was just questioning the rules/cost. He's basically a guy you can use to protect you from challenges. Or maybe harrass the enemy champs with the same. He can beat pretty much any unit champ and give some combat heroes a good fight. He could take on a Black Orc Big Boss pretty easily and would beat (for cost) a Bruiser.

I pulled up 3 of my army lists, and threw him at the heroes I've been running. More often than not, he didn't win.
Vampire BSB took him out without taking a wound 2 at of 3 times; on the 3rd time, the dualist did one wound that was bounce back to him from the gem of blood. So 75 points uses up my gem of blood.
Dark elf master on cold one smoked him; not even remotely close.
My Bruiser BSB traded wound for wound, and the stomp ended it.

Oddly enough, all my fighting heroes I run cause fear (Elf is on cold one), and I was winning without the fear tests. WS1 does make this guy a pushover, and shouldn't be ignored.

-Matt