Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I had a thought,

what if, every single Vanilla Marine model with attacks in his profile would have 1+ extra attack. For no additional costs nowhere.

I believe then they would never be called vanilla ever again. I think this one change could do massive stuff to their now vanilla codex.

Your thoughts? Or do you have another option which could be changed to un-vanilla the space marines?

That would be good, as that would make cc orientated marine armies better e.g white scars etc.

In the next Black Templar codex I would like to see all the guys have bolt pistol, ccw and a bolter as space wolves have that and Black Templars are meant to be cc orientated. That would add more flexibility to Black Templars.

It would make my biker marines a viable army.... the problem has always been that they can get into hand to hand... and then what. they suck in close combat.

If they had 2 base attacks, it would make them a viable hand to hand force.

ninja13 wrote:That would be good, as that would make cc orientated marine armies better e.g white scars etc.

In the next Black Templar codex I would like to see all the guys have bolt pistol, ccw and a bolter as space wolves have that and Black Templars are meant to be cc orientated. That would add more flexibility to Black Templars.

My thought as well, Marines Lack an all round cc potentional just because they only have this 1 attack. give them 1 more and then you get even fights, making the whole codex better. I'm even looking at the dreadnaughts.

I like the black templars alot! discovered they are indeed cc oriëntated only a few weeks ago, that's why I wanted this thread. To see people think like me.

Why not just give them army-wide +2 attacks on the charge? Rewards you for tactical, aggressive thinking, and doesn't slap your playmate too hard for taking units that can survive successive rounds of combat.

chrisrawr wrote:Why not just give them army-wide +2 attacks on the charge? Rewards you for tactical, aggressive thinking, and doesn't slap your playmate too hard for taking units that can survive successive rounds of combat.

Marines are consistent and never tire! I geuss +1 attack army wide should do the trick.

Why I brought this up, is that I myself get uneasy with 10 Marines, going down under the hack and slash of 10 orks.... Allright there is a Nob with a PK in there, but still, Marines should be able to fend them off, with or without powerklaw. as 10 man tactical would cost 75p more.

[ Taken by the void dragon. [

Che-Vito wrote:
That logic doesn't really work.
5 Bloodletters will beat face with 10 of your Marines in close combat. (for 1/2 the price, mind you)
But the Marines have more options and flexibility than the Bloodletters.

Orks are similar. They have less flexibility than the Marines, but can shoot decently in large numbers, and as decent in close combat.
Next time, don't get a Vanilla Tac squad into close combat with a Power Klaw.

We are just thinking, here ;D

In game vanilla marines get beated up like always. But fluff wise, everywhere, things are told diffrently.

Actually, if you want to play fluff marines, each one is 6's across the board and bolters are S7 AP4 assault 12. They also cost 250 each.

Likewise, orks are now 10 for 1 point, and everything else about them is free.

What about merely raising all WS of all codex marines (troops, elites, fast assault, devs., but not captains, not chapter masters, not scouts), so that the marines have more quality of attacks over quantity.

If you want that, why not get a chapter banner?
If you want to hit more often put a chaplain in the unit.
If you want some buffs take a librarian and add to their initiative.
If you want something buff to take him out - honor guard, company commands squad, vanguard vets or even sternguard...

The marines have the options to do what you want without messing with their stats.

You're probably right.

@ DAaddict : But they shouldn't need those tools.

@thunderingjove : Maybe that would help alot as well, being able to hit most on a 3+ would really help alot. I shouldn't let the captains out at all, they are real decent fighters with skill so why only WS6? Ghazkull has WS 6, don't see him targeting his blows, as swinging his powerklaw in the general direction is enough for him. so why do captains only have WS6? but that's another topic! yet the idea is completely right for Marines are real good fighters, may not be in quantity but in skill.

chrisrawr wrote:Actually, if you want to play fluff marines, each one is 6's across the board and bolters are S7 AP4 assault 12. They also cost 250 each.

Likewise, orks are now 10 for 1 point, and everything else about them is free.

You forgot the 2+ rerollable armor save, followed by the 2++ rerollable save.

RutgerMan wrote:@ DAaddict : But they shouldn't need those tools.

@thunderingjove : Maybe that would help alot as well, being able to hit most on a 3+ would really help alot. I shouldn't let the captains out at all, they are real decent fighters with skill so why only WS6? Ghazkull has WS 6, don't see him targeting his blows, as swinging his powerklaw in the general direction is enough for him. so why do captains only have WS6? but that's another topic! yet the idea is completely right for Marines are real good fighters, may not be in quantity but in skill.

Alright then. Remove ALL the tools and pump them to 18 pts each then maybe you can give them 2 base attacks. Sure CSM have the extra attack but they also don't have ATSKNF. What you are asking for is why can't marines have Khorne Berzerkers and not pay for them. Oh and let me keep all the bells and whistles that SM codex has.

Sorry for the sake of balance, they should not get an extra attack. One of my biggest gripes with the SW codex is counterattack with no cost to it. Sure fang spam is cheap but they are also small and everything in the squad being lost hurts. Counterattack makes it so SW can rhino rush, dump out the marines and rapid fire and then the opponent can charge you but you get to bonus attack!!! Giving SM 2 attacks at no cost with the ability to add chapter banners, chaplains and the like just seems silly stupid.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

The problem with grey knights is numbers. Sure you get a lot of silly powers, a force weapon and a storm bolter but the 20 pt cost really adds up. I have built a GK list and by the time you get all that you want in the army, I ended up with 26 marine bodies on the board. Sure they have a lot of firepower but the number of wounds is mighty low for an 1850 list.

If you want to talk balance for extra attacks look at the elite GK. Other than the option to take an extra psicannon at cost, the other advantage is +1 attack. Cost? 4 points each.

@ DAaddict : GK have alot of powerful stuff, and yes, you might just field those 26 marines. But hey second there! they might be terminators?! geus what 2+save, as far as I know that always helped me alot when I used such stuff!

One question for you, where, in which universe could you justify the very possebiltiy of vanilla marines winning against grey knights? Count that both players have a fair gaming experience and both know how to deal with one another...

Why does every discussion become we dont but gk do? are you wanting to one up them now with vanilla or make a good codex? If you want a good codex you compare them to EVERY book. Smurfs arent know for cc like the ba or sw so really how can you justify more attacks? Just to keep the creep going?gk in the fluff are the most elite of the sm and while I think pts can be shuffled how they compare to smurfs IS accurate.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Then compare the tac to other stuff like ork boyz.. guess what they hosed em too for a lot less points.

Why would Iron Hands/any other normalguy have more attacks than Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Chaos Space Marines?

I would probably say give them a combat weapon alongside the Bolt Pistol and Bolter.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Then dont compare them to GK since pts wise theyre not the same and gk tactics are different then tac marine. tac marine squads arent as good as ig squads or ba assault marines. Hell GH are better then tac squads why do you single out just gk. Sounds like a whine fest more then an actual hey tac are lacking. Compare them to things of equal cost.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

You surmize wrong. I have played them long before the new codex. I also play daemons so dont that statement is a waste dig. It gets old though to hear the same weak arguement and suddenly no one cares about the others. This same stupid debate comes out every time their is a new codex and only the new ones are targeted for critique. Tac squads are terrible that isnt a secret and has been everytime a new codex has dropped so save your assumptions and this is a whinefest. If it was a subjective debate then youd include other stuff.

Draigo is right, Though tactical squads were good, until every codex got a BETTER tactical squad, the GK are not overpowered, and an inexperienced player throwing his GK out will not beat BA, SW, or Guard, and probably not any other experienced players dex, Guard and SW are significantly more competitive, and BA Razorspam is as well, stop hating on the GK PLEASE, instead, go out there, take your competitive army, and sqaush the crap out of the people who decided to play them without experience like myself(Though I only play inquisition).

RutgerMan wrote:@ DAaddict : GK have alot of powerful stuff, and yes, you might just field those 26 marines. But hey second there! they might be terminators?! geus what 2+save, as far as I know that always helped me alot when I used such stuff!

One question for you, where, in which universe could you justify the very possebiltiy of vanilla marines winning against grey knights? Count that both players have a fair gaming experience and both know how to deal with one another...

A regular SM can beat a GK but not if you fight on GK terms. GK win at 24" range and in CC. Marines have access to a lot of AP2 or in the case of Sternguard AP3 weapons. That is all stuff that will ruin GK at range. I am not saying it will be easy but a vanilla marine can beat GK.


BTW those 26 marines are 20 strike, 5 terminators and 1 brother captain. That is a lot of lethality at 24" range but it is naked outside of that. That is almost 900 points and give me 3 troops.
The rest of the points get eaten up in transports, dreadnoughts and one fluffy dread knight. For an equivalent SM force I am going to have a core of 5 las/plas razorbacks and 6 land speeders. They can keep the GK at range with a lot of 48" range S9 and S8 shots. It will take disciplined play for a GK to beat such a vanilla SM force.

You know someone who actually got screwed? The 1k sons, theyre awful and overcosted. People want to go to bat for someone pick the cult groups out of the csm book. I hope theyre either cheaper or better in the new book. Cause right now they have more to gripe about as far as being overcosted and lacking is the 1k sons. They need to be cheaper or stronger.