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I would like to see what everyone runs on their Space Marine Sgt's, trying to find that balance between points and capability. If you could post up the 7 variants as below. Hopefully we'll see some trends falling out of this thread.

SCOUT - PF + Shotgun
TACTICAL - PF + Combi-Flamer
DEVS - CCW + BP
STERN - Combi-Plasma + PW
VANGUARD - LC + SS + Melta Bombs
ASSAULT - LC + SS + Melta Bombs
BIKER - Combi Melta + Melta Bombs

What do you run on your Sergeants?

EDITED FOR BIKE SGT, (note to self do not copy paste without proof reading ! :( )

Your biker sarge is illegal. He can only choose one option. Storm shield on the sarge seems really silly. You don't want to allocate attacks to him before you have to.

My sergeant gear differs greatly from list to list, but the only gear I give them if they get anything are combi-weapons and powerfists.

Bike searg's don't have an extra CC weapon. You want to give them a PF, as if they have a PW they only get 2 attacks -- which kind of defeats the point of having a PW. The PF works just as well as it does for any other searg

A power fist is a must personally, as it allows the squad a chance to deal with Walkers/MCs (as grenades, such as melta bombs, don't work on MCs and they are very difficult to get to stick to walkers ) Then I normally give them a combi-weapon or a storm bolter.

I have no general sarge loadout, I do have some things which I would never use such as Storm shields and PWs.

Powerfists are far from a must. IF you are running a vanilla army then you are most often better of using the pts for something else, especially if you intend to combat squad the unit.

If you are running a 10 man tactical squad which you dont intend to combat squad and at the same time are using a character which gives your army stubborn then PF is a good investment.

Sorry, I should have explained myself. I am very new to playing marines - I've only played 2 games at my local GW on games night, both against an expierienced DE player. So far I've found them quite useful, but there is probably a better build out there.

In an aggressive squad, the PF can be very useful. The chance of the PF being used it higher as there is a greater chance of your marines being in assault.

In a more defensive squad, such as objective campers or devastators, they are less useful. This is because the chances of the PF being used is significantly less.

(edited the Sgt on the Bike) So is anyone going to post up their choices? Rather than general Advice?

It's too easy to say just give him a PF! (3 x PF = 1 Scout Squad which as a troop unit is always useful). SS is useful because he can go up against units with PW's and allow at least a second round of combat, marines did easily to PW's, Marines are always out-numbered so keeping my Sgt in the fight is useful (5 Man squad with sgt recently smashed a 10 Ork mob, the sgt then (next turn) bounded to a Killa-Kan and Melta bombed it).

Please post up your choices for your sgts.

Sometimes I go for just a bolter and bolt pistol, especially for a dev. squad, which no one has mentioned.

You could ask us to list all the serg. models we own, that would be more accurate. It always changes.

You scout serg. would be better with a sniper rifle, but then I bet your squad doesn't have sniper rifles! how do you we answer if we have two different scout squads?

mwnciboo wrote:(edited the Sgt on the Bike) So is anyone going to post up their choices? Rather than general Advice?

I did. Let me be more clear.

Offensive Squad
SCOUT : scout assaults in turn 1
TACTICAL : moving up to claim center board objectives.
STERN
VANGUARD
ASSAULT
BIKER

Defensive Squad
SCOUT : sitting on objective
TACTICAL : sitting on objective
DEVS -

labmouse42 wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:(edited the Sgt on the Bike) So is anyone going to post up their choices? Rather than general Advice?

I did. Let me be more clear.

Offensive Squad
SCOUT : scout assaults in turn 1
TACTICAL : moving up to claim center board objectives.
STERN
VANGUARD
ASSAULT
BIKER

Defensive Squad
SCOUT : sitting on objective
TACTICAL : sitting on objective
DEVS -

Erm, well, i'm not sure if i've been clear here. But I was kind of hoping you would put up the Wargear selections?

mwnciboo wrote:Erm, well, i'm not sure if i've been clear here. But I was kind of hoping you would put up the Wargear selections?

Overall its simple.

On aggressive squads put a PF. This gives the squad the ability to handle a number of situations that otherwise are unavailable. Such as destroying dreads, or hitting the rear of vehicles, etc... On aggressive squads, a combi-melta is another fantastic idea. This gives the squad another shot to destroy that high AV target.

Defensive squads should be bare bones. Generally they will be behind your other squads. If these squads are close enough to need combi-weapons or PF, then you have bigger worries.

The same type of squad can be used in different roles. Scout squads are a primary example of this. You can say that you give your scouts a PF, or just sniper rifles and both answers would be correct. It depends on how you want to use them.

I'm sorry if its not a black and white answer, but 40k is not a simple game.

Why are you equipping a single lightning claw with a storm shield? A single lightning claw and a single powerfist both get the same number of attacks with the shield. Meanwhile, the power fist beats face on marines better with being about the same against T3, and the power fist makes them a much more credible threat against vehicles and monstrous creatures.

Given that the single PF is better than the single LC against pretty much everything, why not just go with the power fist?

Vanilla tactical marines are more likely to be effective trying to combat tactics out of combat with targets like MCs/walkers. The PF doesn't really put the odds in the favour of the tactical squad winning those combats, so really you are just throwing away the points if you have the option to combat tactics your way out of the CC.

I can see a rationale for spending on the PF for tacticals if you are unable to use CT tho.

For me tactical sgts get the standard equipment, bolt pistol and chainsword or boltgun (normally boltgun). Tacticals are not a strong choice on their own and therefore I try to keep the points invested in them at a minimum.

Ailaros wrote:Why are you equipping a single lightning claw with a storm shield? A single lightning claw and a single powerfist both get the same number of attacks with the shield. Meanwhile, the power fist beats face on marines better with being about the same against T3, and the power fist makes them a much more credible threat against vehicles and monstrous creatures.

Given that the single PF is better than the single LC against pretty much everything, why not just go with the power fist?

Initiative....That is the advantage, oh and the re-roll to wound. The PF is great (ID for example), but against a squad PW's (in the case of most Elite squads in enemy armies have), your Sgt will be dead before he gets to strike. Assault Squads are for taking those units out, or at least to protecting your troops from the enemy elites, this then allows your troops to roll upto the objective or at least duke it out with enemy troops rather than elites.

Sergeant's gear really depends on the squad. The Sergeant's gear doesn't matter if the squad is not equipped with the same plan in mind. I tend to use tactical marines to score (meaning surviving is the first goal... meaning close combat is the last resort) and use them for some support shooting. Depending on the army, these are the two most common "support shooting" squads that I take.

Sergeant with Combiplasma (in squad with plasmagun and multimelta with a rhino) is pretty good. Lots of high-strength low AP shooting there for a tactical squad. This squad is good all-rounder since bolters are anti-infantry, the big guns are good anti-elite, and can even do a mediocre job of going anti-vehicle if needed.

Sergeant with combimelta (in squad with meltagun and lascanon with a rhino) is pretty good at combat squading and going tank hunting.

For scouts... combimelta with meltabombs or powerfist in a landspeeder storm with multimelta is a pretty good alpha strike. Meanwhile, combiflamer and powerfist in a lanspeeder storm with heavy flamer is pretty good anti-infantry for a scout squad.

so really you are just throwing away the points if you have the option to combat tactics your way out of the CC.

Combat tactics is not hit and run. It is not a get out of CC free card. If your opponent is actually paying attention, hitting the CT button means you might just run off, or GET ran off the board. This is assuming it goes off at all, you have a 50/50 against most of the dreads I run into. I've spent the points and have had no cause to look back.

Initiative....That is the advantage, oh and the re-roll to wound.

Consider that having your power attacks hitting at the same initiative step as your regular attacks may not be advantageous against someone running small squads and also knows how to allocate wounds. Something a powerfist never has to worry about. Couple this with a total lack of AV capability, giving up being able to ID multiwound T3-4, and that not many units are capable of reliably wiping a full tac squad from the board before I1 of that phase...and the ones that are generally aren't hurt very bad by a single PW/LC...Why bother? Take the option with more utility.

They are expensive, and running them in a Tac heavy list (Which I will probably not do until the 6e codex hits, but I digress.) where you are looking at buying 4-5 of them, or running them in combat squads, I can see the arguments against...but in 10-blocks, they can be worth their weight in gold.

I run my tacticals with a PF sarge, PF + Combimelta depending on list. Scouts sergeants are snipers or Telion. Dev sergeants are kept plain, if CC hits these, I have done something very wrong and they are GOING to die shortly.

SOFDC wrote:

so really you are just throwing away the points if you have the option to combat tactics your way out of the CC.

Combat tactics is not hit and run. It is not a get out of CC free card. If your opponent is actually paying attention, hitting the CT button means you might just run off, or GET ran off the board. This is assuming it goes off at all, you have a 50/50 against most of the dreads I run into. I've spent the points and have had no cause to look back.

The tacticals are going to stand a much worse chance of winning against that dread even with a powerfist than the CT chance to escape. If you are planning on using CT, you can position yourself to mitigate the counters such as being escorted off the board.

The main point here is that the powerfist is insufficient to turn the MC/Dread battle into one favourable to the tacticals. Therefore the strategy of slightly reducing the deficit is weaker than avoiding or mitigating it.

Many people seem to be under the impression that a PF is a solution for tacticals for Dreads/MCs. If you do the math, you will see that this battle is highly favourable to the Dread/MC even if you have a PF.

The cost of adding PF to multiple tactical squads adds up fast. There are other ways to spend the points, many of which offer returns greater than a PF on a tactical squad in a vanilla SM army.

edit: fixed quotes

Right, wound allocation is annoying. More importantly, a powerfist still does more damage. Rerolling a 4+ to wound isn't as good as getting a straight-up 2+ to wound. Against GEq the rerollable 3+ is only slightly better, while against T5 and up, the powerfist clearly does more damage.

Plus, your sergeant is in a hidden squad. If you want more bodies, you don't HAVE to break the squad in half. If anything, that's what the power fist is all about - more options.

Dracos wrote: Tacticals are not a strong choice on their own and therefore I try to keep the points invested in them at a minimum.

That's just sad. If you don't think tacticals are worth taking, you shouldnt' be a marine player.

Without going off-topic, I never realised the strength of Tacticals till I was given a Tactical Master Class by our 23 year old master Marine "Matt H" who plays vanilla marines better than anyone in the region.

He literally plays 3-4 Tac Squads in Rhinos with Vindicators in support and never takes Terminators and is damn near unbeatable. The Firepower in a Tactical Marine squad is immense, it's about delivering that firepower precisely or simultaneously with 2 Squads against one unit inside 12" because being Rapid-fired by 2 Tactical Squads is like flying a "Micro-lite over a Hydra Battery". It's about using your Rhino's like Barricades, and knowing your transport rules, remembering the little things (10pts for Lascannon in a Tactical squad! Cheaper than anything else!).

At 2000 point "Spoils of War" tournament they played Modified Rules, allowing Spearheads and +1 to Max of every section on the FOC. I ran 5 Tactical Squads with the Spearhead Infantry one ( i think you get free Melta bombs or something) and it was a hoot watching a Half-Company charge across the board and smash into the enemy lines. I won, god knows how, and I have a new found respect for Super Heavy Flyers and their bombing runs, lots of pieplates being dropped.

Ailaros wrote:

Dracos wrote: Tacticals are not a strong choice on their own and therefore I try to keep the points invested in them at a minimum.

That's just sad. If you don't think tacticals are worth taking, you shouldnt' be a marine player.

C:SM are my first army which I have piloted with local success in RT/GT events. I've since moved on to DE as a primary choice but that does not negate my experience and success with C:SM. In fact, playing something other than SM gives me a chance to view tacticals from the other side of the table.

Tacticals are simply weak offensively. I have no illusions as to their capabilities - both defensively and offensively. Part of the recipe for success in a game like this is to be fully aware of both the capabilities and limitations of your units and army. Its not that tacticals are not worth taking per say (in fact being superior themselves to scouts in most builds, you are forced to take at least some), its just that they are not superior to some other options.

Tacticals lack offensive Hand to Hand, but they are difficult to wipe out quickly they are exceptionally hardy and difficult to shift. The ultimate tarpit unit, you may kill them, but they delay you getting on with the mission.

I lose count of the number of the times the opponent says that's "3 wounds then" with a grin and then I roll 3 x 3+ it's almost immoral but that's how marines roll. I am a bit "miffed" that the space nuns get 6+ Inv on everything, those tarts are useless compared to a space marine yet they get a 1/6 chance to shrug off a Power Weapon Wound? "Tis a Flesh wound" "No it's not I took your bloody Arm off".....

On my tacticals I run either PW and Combi-flamer or a PF and Combi-melta. the squad has a matching special weapon and either a missile launcher or a lascannon.

Really marines, as I see them at least, deliver flexibility as their main gift, along with the ability of precision, but like any fine-tune instrument, they require a great deal of finesse and overall mastery to be able to use well. Berzerkers may be good, but nothing if not straightforward, and also bad at shooting. Plague marines may be good at shooting, but they're scarcely any better in close combat, and are a fair amount more expensive.

Tac squads are efficient at versatility, which is a very odd concept for 40k in general. For the points, you get a great deal more versatility with a power fist (as in, a credible threat in close combat), which is why I would take them with any squad.

Options... all about options...

In a nilla Marine list with Combat Tactics I would take a combi weapon (to match whichever special weapon the squad is using) and maybe melta bombs if I had points spare. Marines are very much a shooting based army and fleeing from combats so you can blast people with your entire army is always going to be better than just crushing 1 dude a turn with a Fist while the rest of your squad dies.

However if you are taking any of the characters who alter Combat Tactics then a Fist is definitely a decent plan. You can no longer back out of combat and are going to more assault orientated in the first place (with Fleet or Stubborn etc) so a Fist is definitely a good idea.

This is for Tacticals, Scouts, Sternguard and Bikes. Devastators should always be naked (you use the BS5 for a heavy weapon guy anyway) and Vanguard/Assault Squads get Claws/Fists/Storm Shields depending on their role.

My army practically revolves around heavy hitting mobile weapons, So I usually give him a Combi-Melta, and Arty Armor for exrta survivability. If I have an additional 15 pts, I plug in the Aux. Grenade launcher.

Rennoc215 wrote:My army practically revolves around heavy hitting mobile weapons, So I usually give him a Combi-Melta, and Arty Armor for exrta survivability. If I have an additional 15 pts, I plug in the Aux. Grenade launcher.

You can't give a sergeant Artificer armor.

Are you using the current codex?

New to C:SM, but I've set a few guidelines for myself:

- basic Tactical Sarges get the combi-version of whatever special weapon their squad are running.
- cc Scout and Assault Squad Sarges get PF.

Everybody and their mother gets a combi-melta.
Some get power fists, some just get melta bombs, but everyone gets the combi melta.

Only exception is my scout biker vet, he just gets the bombs. His unit's too small to survive in combat, and he is packing the beacon, he doesn't want to get close enough to use the melta.

-Matt

I love the flexibiltiy of a PF + Combi on a TAC Sgt, but the more I think about it the more I wonder on paying 35pts for Upgrades, I mean that's a Rhino? or +5 points for a Razorback with TLHB? Which can move and fire and transport a Combat squad. Decisions, decisions....