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Yeah, but come on, what's going to make your list more robust, a heavy bolter, a flimsy tin can, or a power fist and a combi-melta?

To me, the first two don't do much of anything that bolters and 3+ armor doesn't already do. The powerfist, on the other hand, gives you a lot more options, while the melta makes you even better at stuff that bolters and chainswords are cruddy against.

Upgrades should either make you much better at something you already do, or should allow you to do stuff that you couldn't do otherwise, otherwise, just leave them with their default kit.

Ailaros wrote:Yeah, but come on, what's going to make your list more robust, a heavy bolter, a flimsy tin can, or a power fist and a combi-melta?

Okay, Okay, Ailaros I conceed that the PF is multi-pay-off item e.g I get a Power Weapon, I get a vehicle killer, I get an Instant Death item, all for 25pts. I love it and I run with it, it wasn't until I got a IG Army that I realised how great a SM Sgt is (Strength 8 is so much better than IG Strength 6 Weapons). I do like my Razorbacks, but actually all told a PF gives me alot of options for MC, Anti-Armour, Heavy Infantry and Independent Character Assassination.

I think I will be running a PF with my Assault Marine Sgt from now on.

I'm back to running my all drop pod list. As such, combi melta and power fist all the way for the tac sergeants.

The powerfist is mandatory when I know that within one turn dropping, I should always be in CC.

My favorite Sgt loadout is PW and BP. It's a much more efficient killer than a PF because of the extra attack and 10 points cheaper and hitting at initiative. Personally, I don't like spending money on power fists since they're meant to give you a "chance" at hitting big stuff. I prefer efficiency to potential.

One extra attack can never make up for the ability to instant death most enemies you run into. Outright killing nobs and special characters can turn most combats right around.

Ailaros wrote:Yeah, but come on, what's going to make your list more robust, a heavy bolter, a flimsy tin can, or a power fist and a combi-melta?

To me, the first two don't do much of anything that bolters and 3+ armor doesn't already do. The powerfist, on the other hand, gives you a lot more options, while the melta makes you even better at stuff that bolters and chainswords are cruddy against.

Upgrades should either make you much better at something you already do, or should allow you to do stuff that you couldn't do otherwise, otherwise, just leave them with their default kit.

What does a powerfist give you? You still do not want to engage dreads or MCs. You can open vehicles with grenades in CC without it. The powerfist does not give you any more options. It makes a couple options go from terrible to just bad. You still want to avoid those situations,

On the other hand, the razorback gives you another heavy weapon which can be used to shoot these MCs or light vehicles at range.

Ailaros I think you are grossly over estimating how effective the powerfist is for a vanilla tactical squad. Anything that the tacticals normally shouldn't be in combat with will still destroy them, and anything they should be in combat with the powerfist is overkill. It just does not change your decision making or really your chances of winning.

I do agree that combi weapons can be helpful, if you have the points for them. But if I'm trying to find a few spare points, the combis are normally the first on the chopping block.


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Veldrain wrote:One extra attack can never make up for the ability to instant death most enemies you run into. Outright killing nobs and special characters can turn most combats right around.

So you're saying that a powerfist is gonna let you win against a nob unit with your tacticals? That's just plain crazy. Have you ever even fought against a nob unit in CC? Or are you suggesting that someone would allocate a powerfist wound onto a nob in a unit of boys?

edit: And who in their right mind is gonna position their special character to allow you to base it with your powerfist?

These kinds of statements are quite good at showing that the powerfist's effectiveness has an inverse relationship with the skill level of your opponent. If your opponent is bad, they are great. As the opponents get better, your powerfist will be worth less and less.

derpyhooves72 wrote:My favorite Sgt loadout is PW and BP. It's a much more efficient killer than a PF because of the extra attack and 10 points cheaper and hitting at initiative. Personally, I don't like spending money on power fists since they're meant to give you a "chance" at hitting big stuff. I prefer efficiency to potential.

Shame then that the powerfist kills more MeQ models then the power-weapon on average. Most people would prefer to fork out the extra 10 points for more damage and the ability to hurt everything, not just infantry. The only place the power weapon shows better against T3 models and honestly, do you really need that extra 10% killing power against guard in exchange for being worse against everything else, and the inability to dig you way out of bigger targets?

SCOUT - Sniper rifle, but haven't used scouts in 5th edition
TACTICAL - Combi-melta. I used to use a powerfist, but tacticals aren't meant to be in combat, so I found the powerfists to wasted in ideal circumstances. I find you should build an army list with a plan for how you want it to work, and not spend points on items to fix screw ups.
DEVS - Bolter, but haven't used them in 5th edition.
STERN - Combi-melta, but I haven't used them in almost a year
VANGUARD - Not viable in competitive lists, therefore I don't use them.
ASSAULT - When I used to use assault marines it was powerfist, but they've been benched for awhile now as well.
BIKER - Combi-melta, but have been benched for the time being.

Veldrain wrote:One extra attack can never make up for the ability to instant death most enemies you run into. Outright killing nobs and special characters can turn most combats right around.

So you're saying that a powerfist is gonna let you win against a nob unit with your tacticals? That's just plain crazy. Have you ever even fought against a nob unit in CC? Or are you suggesting that someone would allocate a powerfist wound onto a nob in a unit of boys?

edit: And who in their right mind is gonna position their special character to allow you to base it with your powerfist?

These kinds of statements are quite good at showing that the powerfist's effectiveness has an inverse relationship with the skill level of your opponent. If your opponent is bad, they are great. As the opponents get better, your powerfist will be worth less and less.

Against nobs, no it won't let them win. But if it does wound then it removes a model instead of a two/three PW hits that will just allocated around.

If you are going for a PW you should instead go for a LC instead. rerolling to wound is superior to having one extra attack and its the same price.

Other then that, take the fist.

Veldrain wrote:Against nobs, no it won't let them win. But if it does wound then it removes a model instead of a two/three PW hits that will just allocated around.

Assuming you have any models left at I1... and he fails his invuln... etc..

PF is good on paper, but in practice you will find that it does not help enough to be worth it. At the point where you have to engage nobs with your tactical marines, you should cut your losses instead of planning to attempt to pop a single nob (less than 50% to even do it).

The smart player nevers lets the nobs reach his lines.

As I stated when I first posted in this thread, I personally am back to running an all drop pod army. I don't really have the ability to avoid CC, half my units are in it the turn after they land. Unless I am fighting Tau my tac squads are going to get assaulted.

So I have a question, when people are saying no to powerfists, are they saying use a lightning claw instead (going on the math hammer that LC is better than PW).

I am not marine player. But I feel not having any sort of power weapon puts you at a serious disadvantage when you go against other marine players.

mwnciboo wrote:Okay, Okay, Ailaros I conceed

Lol, well, I don't mean for you to take them just so I'll stop badgering you

Grey Templar wrote:The smart player nevers lets the nobs reach his lines.

If only you were 100% in control of where your opponent deployed and moved them...

Dracos wrote:And who in their right mind is gonna position their special character to allow you to base it with your powerfist?

These kinds of statements are quite good at showing that the powerfist's effectiveness has an inverse relationship with the skill level of your opponent. If your opponent is bad, they are great. As the opponents get better, your powerfist will be worth less and less.

You just need to get the hidden powerfist to within 2" range of a model that is in base contact with said model. If you put your powerfist in the center of the squad and then adjust it accordingly, it should really not be difficult at all to achieve this.

And I can scarcely see how an opponent being smarter is going to stop a powerfist. This isn't defending against deepstriker or large blast templates here. The only way they can mitigate a powerfist is by staying out of close combat which, as you are so quick to say, is exactly where you'd want them.

Dracos wrote:What does a powerfist give you? You still do not want to engage dreads or MCs. Anything that the tacticals normally shouldn't be in combat with will still destroy them

A tac squad that has no serious close combat power is super easy to neutralize in close combat. You don't WANT to engage MCs, but you don't always have the options how you like them. Shunting GK superterminators, dreads in storm ravens, and anything with wings will be able to get into CC, whether you like it or not, and that's just MCs and dreads. Without a real close combat weapon, you're going to find yourself either losing combat or being tarpitted by lots of different units. No power fist means easy to kill or even just neutralize, which is just as good.

Plus, you don't even need to win close combats all by themselves. What if your opponent comes in with a pair of tervigons and you're only able to get one of them down to 1W. With a powerfist, the marine squad wins with only light casualties, without, that 180+ pt. marine squad is basically done for. Likewise, even if the powerfist only rips the arms off a dread or puts wounds on an MC, that still means the tac squad was contributing to the battle rather than sitting there getting slaughtered by sheep. If that dread comes out of CC without his lascannon, that's another vehicle of yours you've saved. If that DP comes out of close combat with only one wound left, whatever you have nearby will probably be able to kill it. A unit of marines doesn't need to be terminal to still be useful.

Which is important when you're already shelling out nearly to over 200 points for a unit. Having that unit spend a few turns doing nothing, or getting casually wiped out or neutralized really hurts. A 25 point insurance policy against this is a good thing.

Battles don't always go the way you want to, and you can not possibly guarantee that marine infantry units will never see close combat. That's the whole point of tac squads, actually - they're flexible enough to handle (or at least hurt), whatever they come across. As such, power fists help a tac squad handle anything, and thus play to their strengths. I mean, you wouldn't seriously consider a tac squad with a power fist and the rest of your squad with no special or heavy weapons, so why shouldn't it be the same with a squad with special and heavy weapons with no power fist?

Ailaros wrote:
Which is important when you're already shelling out nearly to over 200 points for a unit. Having that unit spend a few turns doing nothing, or getting casually wiped out or neutralized really hurts. A 25 point insurance policy against this is a good thing.

I never looked at it from this angle, but I am inclined to agree. Putting a few wounds out before you succumb is useful and who knows it might make the difference between victory and defeat.

As a dedicated Ork player who runs 3 squads of lone Buzzsaw Twin Rokkit Deffkoptas, I'd much rather go up against a Tac squad with no PW's let alone PF. Having even a single PW makes me either think twice or commit 2 Deffkoptas to that fight instead I one.

I get a 24" scout move pre-game, 12" ignore cover move and 6" ignore cover assault. I'm still taking Dangerous Terrain tests but the point is that I can get to your Tac's, Dev's, Scouts, etc most of the time. No PW means you get 6 or 7 attacks in a 5 man combat squad which hit on a 4+, wound on a 5+, and I save on a 4+, on a 2 wound model. Half the time I take a wound. Now I hit and ignore armor 1.25 times on average. A single Ork is tying up your whole unit unless you CT out.

I've never played a Marine list but at least a PW has some teeth.

For mechanized vanilla marines

SCOUT: sniper rifle
TACTICAL: combi weapon
DEVS - Bolter + BP
STERN - Boltgun
VANGUARD - Never used them
ASSAULT - Never used in mech army
BIKER - Never used them in a mech army

With vanilla marines, I win games in the movement and shooting phases. I need squads to screen & die, to use CT to fall back out of assault range, or to lose and use CT to get away (which typically works fine for me). If I need to tarpit something, that's what walkers are for. If I get stuck in widespread assault, then something has already gone seriously wrong with my plan.

The baseline outlay to put any kind of assault capability into most armies is proportionally huge (except for the assault-oriented ones like DE, Orks, BA...) Instead of blowing 100+ points to give weak assault capability to tac squads in the form of power fists, I just forego assault capability completely. That way proportionally more of my army points are spent on firepower compared with an opponent who spent points to give assault capability to a shooting army.

I'd play a mirror match any day between a vanilla marine army with tac sergeant powerfists and one without--and I predict that the army without PFs would win.,

I tried your approach using 4-5 Tactical Squads and I have to say, with things like Descent of Angels, Dark Eldar and FNP certain armies will massacre you. You don't get to choose when to use CT's, you have to wait for the Roll and then Opt to fail. A clever opponent won't shoot you prior to an assault. I am fed up of assault armies smashing vanilla marines, SW's, BA's and BT's do amazingly well (BT's with all as Preferred Enemy!) (Space Wolf mark of the Wulfren!) (BA's with FNP everywhere) there are hundreds of small differences.

But the Grey Hunters are simply the most amazing Troops in the Game.

I believe Space Marine Sergeant loadouts should be dictated on what you want them to achieve.

To me, a Tactical Sergeant is pretty dang versitile for just about anything with LC, PF, or PW; Combi-stuffs. A nice ten-man Tactical Squad with a Heavy Bolter and a Sergeant with a Power Weapon makes a good objective holders. Or a five-man Tac Squad with a Melta and a sergeant with a Combi-melta, melta bomb in a Razorback could make for an ad-hoc tank-hunting unit. Power Fists are good for Instant Death, and plinking a wound or two off Monsterous Creatures.

But the fat, ten-man Tactical Squad with a Heavy Weapon and a Power Weapon Sergeant are the most ideal as a Troops Choice, being able to defend objectives with a resilient unit.

Scouts: Combat blade scouts ~ PF combi melta, possibly riding in scout speeder with MM.
Bolter scouts: Bolter and chainsword (so the unit isn't comletely hopeless in cc since they are a midfield unit)
Shotgun scouts: PF combi melta if I ever decided to run them
Sniper scouts: Telion
Tactical: Bp&ccw, melta bomb if points allow
Devs: Bp&ccw. Its not like I ever plan on firing him
Stern: Don't run them like other people do, bolter (run 5man 2x ML with remaining bolters)
Van: Never run them, never will
Assault: Never run them, but would use PF or bp&ccw depending on need and points
Bikers: Melta bomb at best. I use the unit as mobile tank patrol.

I never take a fist to take out walkers or go tank hunting or "just in case" I take the fists because I intend to assault with the unit, and want a chance to do something to normal units and ICs. I can't recall ever having more than 2 fists in any given list. (if I wanted to play punch hammer I would break out my orks). Most lists I don't even run any CC upgrades, I'll run CC termies for that role.

Also as you can see I have many uses for scouts... Such a versatile unit. I have a feeling the reason why they got the BS nerf is if they didn't they would have become the default troop choice for too many.

Having played Marines since RT, I can't remember ever having liked Tactical Marines. In the current incarnation of the game, they're a necessary waste of points as troops choices are required to satisfy FOC requirements and to hold objectives. I prefer to spend as few points on them as possible. A few squads of 5 in Razorbacks, *maybe* with a Combi-weapon on Sarge, is all I really allocate to Troops. Even then, I prefer Scouts by a long shot.

SM aren't good because they have strong Troops choices. They're strong because they have Typhoons, Vulkan, cheap Hammernators, Null Zone, etc.

Typhoons are good, but no way resiliant enough for 90points. For 85pts you can get a Predator with AC and 2 x HB, then give a squad Melta Bombs.

I run a pair of typhoons and love them, but the enemy prioritise them rapidly. and they kill them relatively quickly (no I don't squadron them). SM are strong because they have STERNGUARD, 2A base, Cheap Combi-Weapons, Specialist Ammo, HW's and the option for a Heavy Flamer!

Back OT, I do have alot of love for the Lightning Claw even over the Power fist for the reason's above.

Putting a few wounds out before you succumb is useful and who knows it might make the difference between victory and defeat.

Aye. Won a fair few games because a PF was able to knock the last few wounds off a big nasty MC after it got shot on the way in, or a unit of crucial battlesuits got a bit TOO close, or a warrior brood got the ID and No Retreat! treatment, or a dread was broken/immobilized/un-DCCWed, or an important character managed to get into CC and got a knuckle sandwich, or my squad had the PF and theirs had nothing so they could save points....

my sternguard Sgt has a combi melta and a LC/PF depending on what I'm up against. A storm bolter and PF works really well for tacticals and I completely agree with your scout sarge loadout

Since I run Vulkan and therefore loose combat tactics, I regularly use powerfists. Actually, aside from my dreadnoughts, the assualt element of my army comes down to a combat squad containing a PF, combi-flamer sarge and a guy with a flamer plus 3 beige guys and Vulkan jumping out of a razorback on turn 2 or three. Obviously, even terminators will loose a few wounds to 2 twin-linked flamers and a twin-linked heavy flamer before the charge and big V usually kills at least 3 models, but the powerfist is good to finish off any remiander.

On the flipside, my other tactical squad in that army pods in loaded with melta, multimelta and a combi-melta/powerfist. They then waste a LR or transport and.. get assualte by whaterver was inside. And on this squad, I don't think my PF has done anything particularly useful. After one pitiful showing at a Throne of Skulls tourney, (I don't think either PF killed anything) I did think about dropping both fists and having another MM attack bike. Stuck by them, but only the combat-squad fist tends to do much, as I can more pick the fights with them as they are mobie. Podding in with a fist means your usually going to be at the mercy of some of your opponents nastiest CC units, and it will be game over for the Tac squad before the fist makes a noticable difference

I usually have my SM with a MB and combi of that squads special wepaon. I sometimes have a melta squad DP in and put the combi sarge and MM together so that both combat squads can shoot different targets when they drop. If the combi misses then that half sits tight and the MM goes to work while the special weapon half moves and still shoots at close targets.

Caranthir987 wrote:Since I run Vulkan and therefore loose combat tactics, I regularly use powerfists. Actually, aside from my dreadnoughts, the assualt element of my army comes down to a combat squad containing a PF, combi-flamer sarge and a guy with a flamer plus 3 beige guys and Vulkan jumping out of a razorback on turn 2 or three. Obviously, even terminators will loose a few wounds to 2 twin-linked flamers and a twin-linked heavy flamer before the charge and big V usually kills at least 3 models, but the powerfist is good to finish off any remiander.

On the flipside, my other tactical squad in that army pods in loaded with melta, multimelta and a combi-melta/powerfist. They then waste a LR or transport and.. get assualte by whaterver was inside. And on this squad, I don't think my PF has done anything particularly useful. After one pitiful showing at a Throne of Skulls tourney, (I don't think either PF killed anything) I did think about dropping both fists and having another MM attack bike. Stuck by them, but only the combat-squad fist tends to do much, as I can more pick the fights with them as they are mobie. Podding in with a fist means your usually going to be at the mercy of some of your opponents nastiest CC units, and it will be game over for the Tac squad before the fist makes a noticable difference

Surely Combi-melta's/Flamers would be uber with Vulkan? Re-roll to wound Flamer template! Are you running a Heavy Flamer on your Razorback too? Agree on the Drop Pod assessment you are at the mercy of his entire army whilst your support is miles away, worse is that you can only deploy 50% of your drop pods. Drop Pod is good if you want a reliable way to bring in a Teleport beacon.

mwnciboo wrote:Typhoons are good, but no way resiliant enough for 90points. For 85pts you can get a Predator with AC and 2 x HB, then give a squad Melta Bombs.

I run a pair of typhoons and love them, but the enemy prioritise them rapidly. and they kill them relatively quickly (no I don't squadron them). SM are strong because they have STERNGUARD, 2A base, Cheap Combi-Weapons, Specialist Ammo, HW's and the option for a Heavy Flamer!

Back OT, I do have alot of love for the Lightning Claw even over the Power fist for the reason's above.

I wouldn't say that sternguard combi weapons are "cheap" The base cost for a sternguard is higher than a PA GK after all. What makes sternguard good is they all come with special ammo (unless you replace with a special/heavy weapon) and have a huge number of possible variations in gear. Their CC ability isn't important at all, as an extra crap attack doesn't make them good enough for an assault role except against the most pathetic of enemies (whoopee, it makes them expensive assault marines without jumppacks).

Also typhoons and dakka preds are in different slots and generally go after different targets. Its probably a good idea to take both even. I've not been unhappy with the resiliency of the typhoons either. I've been able to dance them around the 42-48 range mark to prevent the 36 range guns from getting shots at them. It also helps if you have enough targets of similar type for them to fire at instead of the typhoons (like 4+ razorbacks).

As for LCs on sarges... Not many units can even take LCs, and I've not been overly impressed with them except on termies or units that get to attack with furious charge. They are too narrow and don't even deny attacks otherwise.

Yeah, Typhoons operate completely different from other Speeders. they actually survive longer if you keep them at maximum range. and if you have squadroned them its fairly easy to get a cover save(obscure one, you obscure them all )

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, Typhoons operate completely different from other Speeders. they actually survive longer if you keep them at maximum range. and if you have squadroned them its fairly easy to get a cover save(obscure one, you obscure them all )

Depending on the target priorities, typhoons can last a long time.

The trick is to make sure that there are other targets that appear to be a bigger threat than the typhoons, such as predators, dreads, or even rhinos that are up close. Suddenly that AV10 vehicle halfway across the board appears to be less of a threat.