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Well, I've had some time to mull over my thoughts on these two units. The Praetorians I believe are in a pretty bad place, and I don't think anyone could really argue they don't need a little buff. The Lychguard aren't that bad off, but I do think a few adjustments couldn't hurt them.

For Praetorians, I really think the Base Attack of 2 is needed. That it wasn't included in the codex boggles my mind, and really cements them as substandard. Now, bare with me for the next few changes so I can explain my logic behind them

I'd give them a 2+ save, and start them with Particle Casters and Voidblades as standard. Now, why the 2+? Well, the way I'm gearing these guys, is so that they are good vs Hordes and Standard troops. As of right now, they can barely handle standard troops and Elite and Hordes really tear them up. The 2+ goes a long way in helping this out. Next, I would have a +5 Points cost increase to the RoC. Keep it the same, except give it the option of firing either the AP2 shot, or a Strength 4 AP 5 template. This would help them with Horde and troop control. They still keep their I2, and Lack of an invul save of course. They now have the ability to thin Hordes and troops, and survive to hit back. I think it's pretty fair, but please feel free to comment if you don' think so.

Now, On to the Lychguard. These guys really aren't in as much of a rough spot as Praetorians, but I still think they could use a little help. With their high points cost I think a 2+, is a must. They are supposed to be hardy bodyguards after all. Next, I really don't understand why they are not WS 5. Of all the Units in the codex, these are the guys that would be training for Hand to Hand combat the most. Varguard Obyron is a good example of this. With their Immortal bodies, the training they used to receive, they should be at the top of the chain when it comes to close combat in the codex. More so than Lords and Overlords who would have other things to worry about. Now, I'd like these guys to have Stubborn or fearless (That should have been encoded into them, as you don't want your bodyguard running away) but I think for the points cost, that might be too much.

Please let me know your Thoughts!

Haven't battle-tested Praetorians, but Lichguards, along with Reanimation Protocols rule, are already almost impossible to get rid off. Last time, my inquisitorial warband (Death Cult Assassins with power weapons under command of Inquisitor-Psyker) ran thorugh their full squad three times, cuting down everyone but necron lord (he has three wounds). After each assault/conter-attack necrons reanimated, making any effort futile. IMHO they need to be rather nerfed than boosted.

Soltari wrote:Haven't battle-tested Praetorians, but Lichguards, along with Reanimation Protocols rule, are already almost impossible to get rid off. Last time, my inquisitorial warband (Death Cult Assassins with power weapons under command of Inquisitor-Psyker) ran thorugh their full squad three times, cuting down everyone but necron lord (he has three wounds). After each assault/conter-attack necrons reanimated, making any effort futile. IMHO they need to be rather nerfed than boosted.

If the Lord was the only one surviving, then the Lychguard cannot get back up.

Yeah Lychguard are a lot tougher when you're using the wrong reanimation rules. Its easy to kill them off really and they dont do enough damage for being so frail. There is a huge difference between a terminator with a 2+/3++ and just a 3+

Oh, thanks for providing right interpretation of the rule. It changes a lot

Lychguards cost is like Terminator squad's. Of course, they're only Sv 3+, but have S 7 with monstrous armour penetration; or Inv 4+ & 'shoot me not' for additional 25 points. It's still very decent option. However, I think that 'Fearless' USR should be added.

Soltari wrote:Oh, thanks for providing right interpretation of the rule. It changes a lot

Lychguards cost is like Terminator squad's. Of course, they're only Sv 3+, but have S 7 with monstrous armour penetration; or Inv 4+ & 'shoot me not' for additional 25 points. It's still very decent option. However, I think that 'Fearless' USR should be added.

The Terminator cost is why I really think they should have the 2+. At that price, even with the Increased T and S they are still lacking a bit. The Armor penetration really isn't a factor in Lychguard, as they are too slow to catch tanks. The Strength 7 is nice but giving up that Invul save, not so nice.

Well, keep in mind they must always use the best available save, so the Shield only works with some shooting, and it can only bounce it off within 6'. People really only take the shield for the 4++, but the Bounce back is a nice thing. It is probably the most optimal configuration for Lychguard.


Anyone have any thoughts about my Changes Triarch Praetorians? Good/Bad/Indifferent?

I think your ideas for the Praetorians are right on the money. I've played several games with groups of 5/10, with/without a destroyer lord and found them to be quite underpar for the point sink. The best use for them I've found so far with the rods (how i modeled them out of the box) was either as an objective harrasser (jump packing behind cover and hitting dug in purifier or tactical squads) or holding them back and body gaurding a unit. With the jet packs I'd leapfrog over the warrior/immortal squad and get the charge usually and hold whatever assualt unit it tends to be in combat for at least one turn so I can shoot them in the next.

But yea, they are way overpriced for what they can actually ackomplish on the field right now. For almost the same points I can get 4 wraiths with whip coils, and I tend to fill my Elite slots in my current list with 2 stalkers and a c'tan.

A 2+ and the a flexible rod would go a long way to making them a viable choice beyond fluff and cool model syndrom. Too bad GW doesn't "patch" units too often in their FAQs or Erratas with actual stat changes. I'd love to see a Necron Codex 1.5 with this change!

I agree with OP and extra ttack and 2+ would make preatorians worth it, not sure about the small blast though...not that I'd mind

Thanks Kowbasher! I'm glad you agree. It really is a shame, because they are such awesome looking models, with excellent fluff to go with them.

Exalted Pariah wrote:I agree with OP and extra ttack and 2+ would make preatorians worth it, not sure about the small blast though...not that I'd mind

Well, it's a template, not a small blast. They have to be pretty close to use it, and it's a pretty standard Flamer at Strength 4 AP 5, same as the Gauntlet of Fire.

I was REALLY surprised when they had 1 A base in the codex, I'm hoping that's a printing mistake and gets fixed in the Errata.

I think Praetorians are pretty good, with Voidblades and Partical Casters. They always perform well for me, but you really need to pick your fights.

I've had them perform well against
1) Standard Dreads
2) Medium units of standard troops (like 10 man tactical marines from a popped rhino)
3) Terminators

They really benefit well from a Destroyer Lord w\ an Orb joining them. Although you're looking at 375 points. The mobility is really helpful for them and Entropic Strike gives them plenty of options. I had an opponent move a land raider 6" and shoot at them, killed 2, they rezzed, and assaulted the Landraider next turn. 15 entropic strike rending attacks hitting on 4+ was able to pop the land raider. (Dropped it to armour 11 then popped it). Thunderhammer Stormshield guys assaulted, the resulting combat lasted several rounds before the necrons came out victorious (Lord with Orb and Mindshackle Scarabs really packs a punch here, although my opponent consistently removed the shackled guy before he smacked his own unit :-) ).

loreweaver wrote:I think Praetorians are pretty good, with Voidblades and Partical Casters. They always perform well for me, but you really need to pick your fights.

I've had them perform well against
1) Standard Dreads
2) Medium units of standard troops (like 10 man tactical marines from a popped rhino)
3) Terminators

They really benefit well from a Destroyer Lord w\ an Orb joining them. Although you're looking at 375 points. The mobility is really helpful for them and Entropic Strike gives them plenty of options. I had an opponent move a land raider 6" and shoot at them, killed 2, they rezzed, and assaulted the Landraider next turn. 15 entropic strike rending attacks hitting on 4+ was able to pop the land raider. (Dropped it to armour 11 then popped it). Thunderhammer Stormshield guys assaulted, the resulting combat lasted several rounds before the necrons came out victorious (Lord with Orb and Mindshackle Scarabs really packs a punch here, although my opponent consistently removed the shackled guy before he smacked his own unit :-) ).

All of these things can be done by Wraiths though, for cheaper. Not to mention, you really need a Dlord with an Orb to make the unit Viable, raising the Points cost dramatically. To Justify the PPM they really need a bit more going for them, IMO.

Sasori wrote:

Soltari wrote:Oh, thanks for providing right interpretation of the rule. It changes a lot

Lychguards cost is like Terminator squad's. Of course, they're only Sv 3+, but have S 7 with monstrous armour penetration; or Inv 4+ & 'shoot me not' for additional 25 points. It's still very decent option. However, I think that 'Fearless' USR should be added.

The Terminator cost is why I really think they should have the 2+. At that price, even with the Increased T and S they are still lacking a bit. The Armor penetration really isn't a factor in Lychguard, as they are too slow to catch tanks. The Strength 7 is nice but giving up that Invul save, not so nice.

Well, keep in mind they must always use the best available save, so the Shield only works with some shooting, and it can only bounce it off within 6'. People really only take the shield for the 4++, but the Bounce back is a nice thing. It is probably the most optimal configuration for Lychguard.


Anyone have any thoughts about my Changes Triarch Praetorians? Good/Bad/Indifferent?

K just wondering what did you mean that they have to use the best possible save? i thought you got to choose :d Obviously you would still choose the best one, but just wondering

Also great ideas for the praetorians. They really lack, and yet so do lychguard. Its a shame because i really like the models. REALLY like them, and because of their rules they are a waste. These new rules would justify their overly priced points cost.

The Son Of Russ wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Soltari wrote:Oh, thanks for providing right interpretation of the rule. It changes a lot

Lychguards cost is like Terminator squad's. Of course, they're only Sv 3+, but have S 7 with monstrous armour penetration; or Inv 4+ & 'shoot me not' for additional 25 points. It's still very decent option. However, I think that 'Fearless' USR should be added.

The Terminator cost is why I really think they should have the 2+. At that price, even with the Increased T and S they are still lacking a bit. The Armor penetration really isn't a factor in Lychguard, as they are too slow to catch tanks. The Strength 7 is nice but giving up that Invul save, not so nice.

Well, keep in mind they must always use the best available save, so the Shield only works with some shooting, and it can only bounce it off within 6'. People really only take the shield for the 4++, but the Bounce back is a nice thing. It is probably the most optimal configuration for Lychguard.


Anyone have any thoughts about my Changes Triarch Praetorians? Good/Bad/Indifferent?

K just wondering what did you mean that they have to use the best possible save? i thought you got to choose :d Obviously you would still choose the best one, but just wondering

Also great ideas for the praetorians. They really lack, and yet so do lychguard. Its a shame because i really like the models. REALLY like them, and because of their rules they are a waste. These new rules would justify their overly priced points cost.

On page 24 in the BRB it talks about Models with more than one save. It states you must always use the best possible available save.

Mind you terminators are undercosted, so comparing units to them would be inaccurate.

I agree with the 2+ saves, and the added base attack.

Blobpie wrote:Mind you terminators are undercosted, so comparing units to them would be inaccurate.

I agree with the 2+ saves, and the added base attack.

TH/SS Terminators did get a boost in cost, in the BA codex though.

I think Praetorians draw the best parallel to Sanguinary guard, where they are really inferior. With my changes, and costing the RoC 5 points more, then it would put them a tad above Sang Guard, in terms of uses, but they would be more expensive as well.

I think Praetorians have 1 attack because whoever wrote the Praetorian rules/stats (in their brilliant wisdom) figured no one would take the RoC and instead go for the combo, which would grant an extra attack.

I very much agree with Sasori's improvements. Even though I think that I2 is ridiculous (slow moving robots? Why type of joints do they have? Did they forget to oil up, and after they left they forgot the oil at home?), giving Lychguard WS5 and 2+, as well as giving Praetorians 2A, WS5, and 2+, would be amazing.

Honestly, the Necron codex is full of things that make you go "what were they thinking?" Hopefully I can weasel this into any games I play with my friends... as a house rule of sorts.

Just a suggestion for Praetorians (sorry for the Necro didn't want to start another thread)

45pts/pm

WS:4 BS:4 S:5 T:5 W:1 I:2 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:2+

Unit Type: Jump Infantry

Wargear: Void Blade, Particle Caster, Sempitermal Weave

Special Rules: Fearless, Reanimation Protocols

Options: Any model may replace it's Void Blade and Particle Caster for: Rod of Covenant - 10pts/pm

Rod of Covenant: The Rod of Covenant is a two handed power weapon can fire using one of the following profiles(state which before firing)

Focussd: Rng:12" S:4 AP:2 Type: Assault 2

Dispersed: Rng:Template S:3 AP:3 Type: Assault 1

After assessing their combat skrillz to krillz, they actually aren't that bad. They almost entirely rely in charging, and the RoC is the equivalent of a I10 attack. Also, to fire the weapon, you have to be within charging distance, so if you can fire, you can charge.

It also helps that I'm now playing Tau. Zahndrekh granting furious charge to a ten man unit of praetorians? Yes. They strike first and at S6.

However, they could still use WS5. The VB and PC is a fairly subpar choice, as the RoC, even though you get fewer attacks, is a power weapon. I suggested a "tesla whip". Which would be D6 attacks with the tesla special rule. Not a pw, but I think it'd be great.

So far, I like all of these suggestions.
Playing devil's advocate here (i would LOVE for lychguard to get a 2+)
Terminators can't get back up, granted, they are harder to kill.
That ability is likely why they are costed so high.

It's actually the reason anything is costed so high. Overlords would only be about 60 points without protocols/ever-living. I 2 is a huge handicap, and without protocols, I suspect everything would have their cost almost halved. Like the wraiths: no protocols, and they're really cheap.

I got several update ideas for both of the units in quetion.

Lychguard



Praetorians

Any thoughts?

2+ save, T5 jump infantry that get back up and carry power weapons for 35points. You guys are smoking some good stuff.

Praetorians and Lychguard are already very good. Praetorians are best with the voidblade and particle casters which make them very good tank hunters (I'm going to equip mine like that). They aren't great in assault with things like Terminators and Genestealers but they are Necrons which are an overall poor close combat army. I think what you're proposing would make them too good in assault against other armies. The rod of covenant isn't the best weapon againt hordes but it works well against marines. They are very tough as is and their points reflect that.

Lychguard are very, very good. Strength 7, ignoring armour saves and rolling 2D6 for armour penetration is a superb unit for their price. They aren't too powerful but any upgrades would make them too good. Saying they are too slow to use them doesn't take into account the Night scythe. That can get them where they need to go.

The shields thay can take are more of a specialist weapon. Use them against enemies with high AP guns to thwart them.

Both units have problems with hordes but they aren't the only elite unit in the game to have that issue, most do. Use Tesla weapons (Tesla weapons are a great anti-horde weapon) to get rid of hordes and let the Praetorians go after the other stuff. It really sounds like you want this lot to be super hard and also able to engage tough elites, hordes. monstrous creatures and tanks. That is alot to ask of any unit. I think they are very good units and show the ability to reallhy perfrom well but they need support like any specialist elite unit.

You really want to look at a bad elite, try the Tyranid Pyrovore. It is awful in every way.

What you all seem to be missing is that if you can fire your RoC, you can charge. You can't mess that up. The weapon has a 6" range and you can charge 6". You can basically premeasure your charge. Also, 3+ save is fine.

Let's look at their roles:

-Lychguard are bodyguards. They are designed to wade through a torrent of enemy fire in order to keep their master safe. They should have either T6 or a 2+ save. Not both. Also, Night Scythes are their friends.

Praetorians are the Necron equivalent of Mass Effect's Spectre's. Highly trained and skilled individuals who maintain peace and order throughout the galaxy and operate outside of the law. They should have WS 5 and maybe 1 more attack. I would prefer the RoC be upgraded to Assault 2. Run with Zahndrekh, these guys can get 20 S6 I3 on the charge, not including RoC shots. This combined with being able to get up (better with Dlord) makes for a great unit of facerollers. Actually, what I would rather prefer is them being reclassed as jetbikes rather than jump infantry. Why? Because they are described as floating around above battles on their gravitation packs (or whatever they use). Jump Infantry don't stay above battles for extended amounts of time. Jetbikes do. Well, troops classed as jetbikes do.

I'd be happy if Praetorians had 2 attacks and stubborn, though WS:5 also makes sense from a fluff perspective, these guys NEVER went to sleep after all...

Lychguard are bodyguards, so they should have stubborn(what good is a bodyguard that runs away?) and I agree with Mcninja, they should be either T6 or 2+ both is a little much, their fluff says they are necrons who actually wear armor, so I'd lean more toward 2+, WS is ok, they are more for defense than attack after all(while the warscythes are indeed destructive, they really are saying "KILL ME!" with the save of a marine, which doesnt make sense for an elite bodyguard...

Leech wrote:Praetorians and Lychguard are already very good. Praetorians are best with the voidblade and particle casters which make them very good tank hunters (I'm going to equip mine like that). They aren't great in assault with things like Terminators and Genestealers but they are Necrons which are an overall poor close combat army. I think what you're proposing would make them too good in assault against other armies. The rod of covenant isn't the best weapon againt hordes but it works well against marines. They are very tough as is and their points reflect that.

Lychguard are very, very good. Strength 7, ignoring armour saves and rolling 2D6 for armour penetration is a superb unit for their price. They aren't too powerful but any upgrades would make them too good. Saying they are too slow to use them doesn't take into account the Night scythe. That can get them where they need to go.

The shields thay can take are more of a specialist weapon. Use them against enemies with high AP guns to thwart them.

Both units have problems with hordes but they aren't the only elite unit in the game to have that issue, most do. Use Tesla weapons (Tesla weapons are a great anti-horde weapon) to get rid of hordes and let the Praetorians go after the other stuff. It really sounds like you want this lot to be super hard and also able to engage tough elites, hordes. monstrous creatures and tanks. That is alot to ask of any unit. I think they are very good units and show the ability to reallhy perfrom well but they need support like any specialist elite unit.

You really want to look at a bad elite, try the Tyranid Pyrovore. It is awful in every way.

the vb/pc combo is better against hordes (more attacks in cc, they'll probably fail their save, and an AP5 hit wiould probably negate it), and the vbs would rend models and kill them or help pen vehicles. Combined with ES, they're decent at killing tanks, but I should hope your only anti-tank is not one squad of praetorians. The RoC's a simply better against MEQs. Lychguard I think are fine, and as I said earlier, they really need a transport. Walking them is a bad way to go.

Honestly, giving the Praetorians +1 Attack, and lychguard +1 to their armor save, and i'd call it even

^ Agreed, one is for offense, the other for defense, perfect.

I just had another look over their rules and I don't think they need any improvement. They are both very good. They will take casualties against powerful enemies but that's to be expected. They can easily do loads of damage and I think improving them would make them too powerful or require an even higher points cost.

Now, I'm not very good at making suggestion as to sats and rules, but it seems to me that Preatorians are a sword that takes care of hordes/light infantry in quick, overwhelming strikes. While the lychguard are there to defend the overlord/lord from the enemy commanders retinue (i.e. elites) while the lord fights his foe in honorable combat. What rules/stats would reflect this fluff?