Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

From what I understand the Imperium only gets new technology if they find the blueprints or whatever?

What I am wondering is in a empire that spans billions of worlds wouldn't there be some sort of science in order to figure stuff works and invent things,

An example of this is the Landraider Crusader, doesn't seem that much more complicated than other landraiders, You might think someone would think "Hey, how about we put like 6 bolters on this thing, that would make it right killy".

Or is the imperiam like the dark ages, where science and knowledge is almost heretical?

Or is the imperiam like the dark ages, where science and knowledge is almost heretical?

That's the point of 40k fluff^^

Dark Ages, through and through. Technology is a very, very closely guarded secret by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Because of the lack of any sort of foresight or logic or reason, the only tech that is allowed to be produced is based off of millennia old STC constructs.

You sir get an Exhaltation for making me smile just from your topic headliner alone .

And I shall second this motion with: 'Of course. Nothing says 'shoot me!' like bright Blue/Red/Green ceramite armor and running around helmetless on the battlefield.'

You could say, in a sense, that the Imperium does not have engineers and scientists so much as priests trained in ritualized maintenance and reproduction. Creativity and inventiveness are pretty much heresy, yep.
Now that I think of it, we know it to be the case for war machines and equipment, but what about civilian engineering ? Does the Adeptus Mechanicus' scope encompass all scientific knowledge in the Imperium ?

Yeah, but those rituals have a purpose. Just like we have safe start up check lists, the admec has rituals. The newer ones probually dont have a clue, but the higher up you get, the more you know.

Indeed, but they added a few things in the meantime. I don't think you find many occurence of "Anoint the dashboard with consecrated oil, then recitate the Ten Litanies of Appeasement of the Machine Spirit" in today's checklists.
Which would be a most lulzy prank to play on a fresh apprentice.

Thats because they have to keep tech mysterious otherwise they would lose all power. Plus, its a galaxy where user friendly is HERESY! No easy to read gui's. No tooltips. No Clippy the helpful paper clip.

The Imperium has good reason to be the way it is.

The first problem is tools. AI assistance was used to create their technology, just like we use computer programs to design today's tech. Imagine attempting to develop a modern microchip without the use of a computer? That is the exact situation they are in. AI has been banned, and for good reason. But without AI they can't really do proper research. There is a workaround: Augument your brain to the point that you ARE the AI. And this is exactly what the Ad-Mech does, but it takes years. The top people in the AdMech DO understsand portions of their tech, and also do research, but they don't let anyone below them do it. Again, for good reason.

Developing new tech is DANGEROUS. It is not unheard of for new circuits to just happen to form daemonic runes and summon daemons, or for it to slightly distort the psuedo AI (machine spirits) present in most Imperial tech just enough to cause it to turn on it's masters. So research is discouraged everywhere but at the highest levels for practical reasons, and the lower levels are left to follow rituals. Again, these rituals exist for good reason.

Often they barely understand the systems at work, and insane, psuedo AI runs rampant (machine spirits). Treat the wrong tank the wrong way and there is a very real chance it might turn on you. So you follow the rituals for everything. The tech is often beyond what the unaugumented mind can comprehend, so again, you follow the ritual. Large portions of the Imperium live in pre-industrial revolution conditions, having no understanding of technology. So, again, you follow the ritual.

There is another important reason they don't do much research, dogma. And it isn't as silly as it sounds. 10k years ago there was a very good chance that you could find new STC's. If you had 1000 spare man hours you could spend it looking for an STC or doing research. The Imperium was at war and needed every edge they could get, so the mandate would be, find those STC's. Research was pointless, there was knowledge is already out there thousands of years more advanced that what you could develop in a lifetime of research, safe knowledge, proven knowledge.

In time the mantra became dogma, research became religious taboo. Those performing research were pushed to the shadows and practiced ever more questionable practices, further pushing research into the realm of taboo.

In the present time new STC discoveries are incredably rare, but the dogma persists.

The Imperium has very good reasons to do what it does.


the War of the Iron Men left deep scars in the human psyche. If you make intellegent AI, it will eventually decide it doesn't need you anymore and that you are just using it selfishly. hence why technology is viewed with suspicion and mistrust.

While this system does hamper the creative process, it hasn't stopped it completely. The Imperium/Ad mech actually has more STCs now then they did during the Heresy and have developed a fair amount of new things since then too(man portable plasma cannons/multi-meltas, Assault Cannons, Terminator armor, Power Armor, most imperial space ship designs are better armored and armed then they were during the heresy, Lemun Russ tank varients)

Some, very important, tech has been lost, but it is at least equal to whats been rediscovered.

The Ad Mech does develop new stuff too. it just takes a really long time to get through the insane red tape(seriously, its bad)

They sometimes modify tech without STC, such as Errant Armor, and there was mention of other forgeworlds trying to design their own Vanquisher canons, but as a whole, tech development in the IoM is at a crawl.

Hazard30 wrote:From what I understand the Imperium only gets new technology if they find the blueprints or whatever?

What I am wondering is in a empire that spans billions of worlds wouldn't there be some sort of science in order to figure stuff works and invent things,

An example of this is the Landraider Crusader, doesn't seem that much more complicated than other landraiders, You might think someone would think "Hey, how about we put like 6 bolters on this thing, that would make it right killy".

Adeptus Mechanicus have a strange way toward all technology, you can use it but not modify it because that would be an offence to the machine god. Or maybe they are using that just to stop others from developing their own stuff thus stop the manipulation of Mechanicus over Human technology.

Or is the imperiam like the dark ages, where science and knowledge is almost heretical?

It's not the point, the point is that Mankind lost all it's former knowledge and must retrieve it by retrieving STC. Most STC are lost by time and aliens. And without basic knowledge of technology you can't build anything, and Mankind lost all that after the age of strife. Now they are to busy trying to survive and can't concentrate on retrieving all that knowledge Grimdark.

It is not unheard of for new circuits to just happen to form daemonic runes and summon daemons

My problem with this bit of fluff though, is that if this is so, why do the other races not seem to experience the issue? One would think that by now this problem would not be limited to the IoM. The Tau in particular should be having Daemon Ranch Adventure 40,000 at this point.

SOFDC wrote:

It is not unheard of for new circuits to just happen to form daemonic runes and summon daemons

My problem with this bit of fluff though, is that if this is so, why do the other races not seem to experience the issue? One would think that by now this problem would not be limited to the IoM. The Tau in particular should be having Daemon Ranch Adventure 40,000 at this point.

It's probably that the new circuits they come up with are given to them by demons. Demons are the real mother of invention.

Hazard30 wrote:
Or is the imperiam like the dark ages, where science and knowledge is almost heretical?

Uh huh

The Imperium's gotta be bad in a lot of places so they can justify chainswords

Grey Templar wrote:The Imperium has very good reasons to do what it does.


the War of the Iron Men left deep scars in the human psyche. If you make intellegent AI, it will eventually decide it doesn't need you anymore and that you are just using it selfishly. hence why technology is viewed with suspicion and mistrust.

While this system does hamper the creative process, it hasn't stopped it completely. The Imperium/Ad mech actually has more STCs now then they did during the Heresy and have developed a fair amount of new things since then too(man portable plasma cannons/multi-meltas, Assault Cannons, Terminator armor, Power Armor, most imperial space ship designs are better armored and armed then they were during the heresy, Lemun Russ tank varients)

Some, very important, tech has been lost, but it is at least equal to whats been rediscovered.

The Ad Mech does develop new stuff too. it just takes a really long time to get through the insane red tape(seriously, its bad)

I'm pretty sure that in the case of starships older is better. At least that's how it's played in the Rogue Trader RPG, and I believe it's in other fluff.
The Ad Mech does, slowly, develop new things, but it seems to do so despite their best efforts. In the crunch, most of the new technology has come from Space Marine chapters. The BT came up with the Crusader, and the BA put turbochargers on all their vehicles.
Basically the Imperium, and Ad Mech, is pretty good at 'how', but horrible at 'why'. Which is how you get the Cain novels talking about starting up holoprojectors using the runes of command and the ritualized thump to the side of the casing.

daveNYC wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Imperium has very good reasons to do what it does.


the War of the Iron Men left deep scars in the human psyche. If you make intellegent AI, it will eventually decide it doesn't need you anymore and that you are just using it selfishly. hence why technology is viewed with suspicion and mistrust.

While this system does hamper the creative process, it hasn't stopped it completely. The Imperium/Ad mech actually has more STCs now then they did during the Heresy and have developed a fair amount of new things since then too(man portable plasma cannons/multi-meltas, Assault Cannons, Terminator armor, Power Armor, most imperial space ship designs are better armored and armed then they were during the heresy, Lemun Russ tank varients)

Some, very important, tech has been lost, but it is at least equal to whats been rediscovered.

The Ad Mech does develop new stuff too. it just takes a really long time to get through the insane red tape(seriously, its bad)

I'm pretty sure that in the case of starships older is better. At least that's how it's played in the Rogue Trader RPG, and I believe it's in other fluff.
The Ad Mech does, slowly, develop new things, but it seems to do so despite their best efforts. In the crunch, most of the new technology has come from Space Marine chapters. The BT came up with the Crusader, and the BA put turbochargers on all their vehicles.
Basically the Imperium, and Ad Mech, is pretty good at 'how', but horrible at 'why'. Which is how you get the Cain novels talking about starting up holoprojectors using the runes of command and the ritualized thump to the side of the casing.

On a whole, the newer ships are better armored and have more guns.

the older ships often have more advanced systems installed, like better range finders, a more powerful plasma drive, maybe a lance array with a better cooling system... its the little things like that. its never that the entire ship is more advanced.

The armored prow is a development since the heresy to better armor the imperial ships, and it is very effective.

I'm not sure that a design change to allow for 'fly closer so I can hit them with my ship' tactics is necessarily an 'advance'. I'd view it as a workaround for the fact that the Imperium has problems building whatever mega-gun would normally be sticking out the front of the thing.

The armored prow allows ships to get into Broadside arcs, because most of their weapons are located on their sides. its definitly an advancement.

Alternativly, it allows most ships to stay at range and use massed Torpedo fire(which are prow mounted)

SOFDC wrote:

It is not unheard of for new circuits to just happen to form daemonic runes and summon daemons

My problem with this bit of fluff though, is that if this is so, why do the other races not seem to experience the issue? One would think that by now this problem would not be limited to the IoM. The Tau in particular should be having Daemon Ranch Adventure 40,000 at this point.

It is humanities immature psychic potential. Humanity is an emerging psychic, the same thing that caused the end of the dark age of technology. Humanity started really maturing and emerging as a psychic power around the end of the age of tech. Lots of power, but no discipline and very few defenses. Reality gets a bit gooey around humanity, and things on the other side swarm where humanity gathers, attempting to get in. That may be why AI turned on humanity after thousands of years of stability and service; humanities emerging psychic potential weakened reality to the point where chaos could get through.

SOFDC wrote:

It is not unheard of for new circuits to just happen to form daemonic runes and summon daemons

My problem with this bit of fluff though, is that if this is so, why do the other races not seem to experience the issue? One would think that by now this problem would not be limited to the IoM. The Tau in particular should be having Daemon Ranch Adventure 40,000 at this point.

My guess is that the Runes make it eisier for Deamons to come out, but they still need a fair amount off work to do it. They strongly prefer humans (taus ARE really boring to a Deamon...)

The Imperium is crippled by it's hyper-religous culture and bureaucracy.

Yes, the Imperium is dumb. The High Lords of Terra keep the entire Imperial Guard from thinking for themselves. We all know why they do it but it is still stupid.

They make weapons that can kill the user...thats pretty dumb.

They destroy whole planets just to keep the existence of one space marine chapter secret...thats pretty dumb.

And they allow the Adeptus Mechanicus to continue to keep a stranglehold on all of the technology they have...now that is the most dumb thing they have done.

yep, they're pretty dumb.

the imperium is supposedly us in 40k years time
so assuming our goverment stays the same im gonna have to say yes they are incredibly stupid

Of course they're dumb.

They're human.

Grey Templar wrote:
On a whole, the newer ships are better armored and have more guns.

the older ships often have more advanced systems installed, like better range finders, a more powerful plasma drive, maybe a lance array with a better cooling system... its the little things like that. its never that the entire ship is more advanced.

The armored prow is a development since the heresy to better armor the imperial ships, and it is very effective.

It is not a straightforward linear progression. Older ships had more powerful engines, generally longer ranged weapon systems, and more lances. Deterioration in the abilities to produce those systems led to more recent designs having more straightforward shorter ranged weapons, and armored prows. Throwing on more slabs of armor on a starship is not a technological advance.

The Adeptus Mechanicus does make some tiny progress as evidenced in BFG by the existence of the Tyrant class cruiser, which used rediscovered "superfired" plasma weaponry lost during the Dark Age of Technology. Yet for every step forward, the Imperium seems to slip two steps backward, such as no longer being able to produce the engines for the Repulsive class grand cruiser leading to a final stop in production. Overall the general trend has been loss of technology.

This is exacerbated by the principles of the Adeptus Mechanicus which actually hoards technology even within its own organization, with forge worlds not openly sharing or communicating all their knowledge with each other. This creates the potential for critical failure points, such as when the Slaughter class cruiser can no longer be produced due to a single forge world being bombarded and the design for the engines being destroyed. Without duplication and sharing of information, it is all too easy for blueprints to be lost, destroyed, or for skilled personnel to die before passing on their knowledge.

Grey Templar wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Imperium has very good reasons to do what it does.


the War of the Iron Men left deep scars in the human psyche. If you make intellegent AI, it will eventually decide it doesn't need you anymore and that you are just using it selfishly. hence why technology is viewed with suspicion and mistrust.

While this system does hamper the creative process, it hasn't stopped it completely. The Imperium/Ad mech actually has more STCs now then they did during the Heresy and have developed a fair amount of new things since then too(man portable plasma cannons/multi-meltas, Assault Cannons, Terminator armor, Power Armor, most imperial space ship designs are better armored and armed then they were during the heresy, Lemun Russ tank varients)

Some, very important, tech has been lost, but it is at least equal to whats been rediscovered.

The Ad Mech does develop new stuff too. it just takes a really long time to get through the insane red tape(seriously, its bad)

I'm pretty sure that in the case of starships older is better. At least that's how it's played in the Rogue Trader RPG, and I believe it's in other fluff.
The Ad Mech does, slowly, develop new things, but it seems to do so despite their best efforts. In the crunch, most of the new technology has come from Space Marine chapters. The BT came up with the Crusader, and the BA put turbochargers on all their vehicles.
Basically the Imperium, and Ad Mech, is pretty good at 'how', but horrible at 'why'. Which is how you get the Cain novels talking about starting up holoprojectors using the runes of command and the ritualized thump to the side of the casing.

On a whole, the newer ships are better armored and have more guns.

the older ships often have more advanced systems installed, like better range finders, a more powerful plasma drive, maybe a lance array with a better cooling system... its the little things like that. its never that the entire ship is more advanced.

The armored prow is a development since the heresy to better armor the imperial ships, and it is very effective.

Then there's the fact that a ship that's lived through thousands of years of battles was probably either made extremely well, or just happened to work particularly well by chance. The same goes for tanks, suits of power armor, etc. Then there's the learning capacity of the Machine Spirits, which could improve the operation of targeting or electronic warfare systems...


The Imperium does still innovate, though. They've just got the problem of having extremely good tech to begin with, so not only is there not all that much they can improve on, but actually coming up with something that works as well or better takes a considerably greater amount of work, skill, and luck than innovation does today.

Things are often really overplayed on how "scared" the Imperium is of alien tech.

A good example of this would be in Soulstorm or in Dark Crusade when your resident Imperial Guard Commander sends off the alien weapons recovered from battle "secretly" to Segmentum Command.

They are not dumb, the fact they don't use these weapons to help there own cause however IS dumb.


EDIT: Meant Alien tech not Old tech.

Read 1984 by George Orwell. The Imperium is remarkably simmilar to the societey in the book

IS the Imperium dumb? Yes just look at Dawn of War Soul Storm & Dark Crusade. They tell every one to kill every thing including other imperials.

As per technological advancement, I do believe that its heresy to alter a STC or make something that's NOT a STC.