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Roadkill Zombie wrote:Yes, the Imperium is dumb. The High Lords of Terra keep the entire Imperial Guard from thinking for themselves. We all know why they do it but it is still stupid.

They make weapons that can kill the user...thats pretty dumb.

They destroy whole planets just to keep the existence of one space marine chapter secret...thats pretty dumb.

And they allow the Adeptus Mechanicus to continue to keep a stranglehold on all of the technology they have...now that is the most dumb thing they have done.

yep, they're pretty dumb.

1. The guard can think for themselves.
2. Plasma guns gain outweights the risk, and its not really dead, more like a burn, that takes you out of one battle. According to FFG therea a 7% chance of an overheat
3. Yeah thats dumb.
4. Its part of the treaty, made by the Emperor. No one wants to modify that.

The fact that STCs are worshipped as the pinnacle of human tech is what makes the Imperium stupid beyond comprehension.

STCs can be improved upon in nearly every way, yet because the Mechanicus holds them so near and dear to their hearts, they reject any other original designs as ass, even if those designs are better in every way.

The Imperium is dumb because they have allowed themselves to slip into a dark age of technology (an actual dark age) where no marked improvements can be made on any technology, no matter what.

Also, just because they have higher technology than we do today does not mean that innovating is any harder or easier. Until the IoM gets the level that an individual can make stars go supernova or create super-massive black holes using a special glove, they have light-years of room for improvement.

As long as other races exist that have better technology than the Imperium, the IoM has no good excuse for being so stagnant.

templarsandorks? wrote:Read 1984 by George Orwell. The Imperium is remarkably simmilar to the societey in the book

I concur.

Furthermore, Big Brother Rowboat is watching.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before I make this lengthy and only partially comprehensible explaination as to why it's all the gaming side of the system's fault that all tech is so lame, let me just say this.

And I stress: IT'S THE CORPORATIONS, MAN!

Moving on...

Let's have a look at the game side of this.

Space marines:
types of tanks: 3 walkers, 1 special, 2 skimmers and 8 tank builds
N. Templates: 5.

Guardsmen:
Types of tanks: unnumerable [easily over 20.]
Templates [in my knowledge:] 4.

Eldar:
Types of tanks [to the best of my knowledge.] 6~7.
Templates: 3.

You notice something?
There are literally endless possibilities for what a vehicle is. Hell, it could be half skimmer, half wheeled.
It could have 74 lascannons on it or it could be completely unarmoured.

But, GW in its infinite wisdom only makes a few kinds of tanks [no sarcasm whatsoever.]

Why? Because it means that they don't have to redesign their kits - they only need one kit for a rhino or razorback. They even make them the same price!

You'll also notice that all the turrets fit the same or in a very simmilar way.

All of this is in the end, to allow the gamer to use only a few tanks that he'll end up knowing well, and not have to know the many endless different designs and shapes of tanks.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

McNinja wrote: STCs can be improved upon in nearly every way, yet because the Mechanicus holds them so near and dear to their hearts, they reject any other original designs as ass, even if those designs are better in every way.

The Imperium is dumb because they have allowed themselves to slip into a dark age of technology (an actual dark age) where no marked improvements can be made on any technology, no matter what.

Also, just because they have higher technology than we do today does not mean that innovating is any harder or easier. Until the IoM gets the level that an individual can make stars go supernova or create super-massive black holes using a special glove, they have light-years of room for improvement.

What's wrong with a rhino? Its resilient, robust and small - perfect!

Storm raven.

Also, it's not like they chose to slip into a dark age. they were brought to a point of near extinction - or does the horus heresy have nothing to do with this?

Eventually, they'll have a renaissance.

Now, no matter how dumb the imperium is, it's never as bad as misusing light-years as a measurement of time.

IT's a measurement of length. its how far light travels in a year - a constant year, as in 365 days.

So that's like saying they have normal years of improvement.

BlaxicanX wrote:As long as other races exist that have better technology than the Imperium, the IoM has no good excuse for being so stagnant.

Of course it does: Ideology. The Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus hold as their dogma that the STC system is the epitome of technology (or more precisely all human technology). Anything worth knowing is supposedly already in the STC system. Whether or not this is true doesn't matter, but it is what they believe. Alien technology is dismissed as being unclean, corrupt, or perversions of the "true" way of the Machine God and the Omnissiah.

Sound ridiculous? No more so than other times in history that technical developments have been dismissed on ideological grounds. This has occurred as recently as in WWII when Germany attempted to dismiss parts of physics as "Jewish science" unsuitable for their nation.

The Imperium's attitude toward technology mirrors that of the Dark Ages and Middle Ages, in looking back to a past perceived Golden Age. Even though there had been technological developments since that time, the ideology again was that the ancients had discovered everything worth knowing and therefore recovering what they knew was what tech development was about, not original research. Similarly in the Imperium, even though there may be original research, due to the dogma, it has to still be couched in terms of "rediscovering what the ancients knew", as to claim to have discovered something the ancients had not is perceived as hubris.

The other factor to consider is what enabled the STC system in the first place: a rationalistic humanity that presumably was at least somewhat transparent in sharing knowledge. Being able to advance technology, especially high technology, is dependent upon having a lot of infrastructure and trained educated people. Simple technology like the wheel might be easy to reinvent if lost, but higher technology may require infrastructure and personnel that the Imperium in its current knowledge hoarding state cannot achieve. A person might reinvent the wheel at home, but to reinvent a computer from scratch? Not only do you require the actual knowledge relating to computers, you need also the production facilities to produce the components. Wait, those production facilities require building and maintenance too, so you need the engineers and architects and other people necessary to make the production facility. And so on... For the super high technology that the Adeptus Mechanicus salivates over, the infrastructure requirements may just not be there. It also explains why some societies in 40K can regress so far. If enough infrastructure is destroyed, and your physicists are having to farm to feed themselves (or any other struggle for survival), they may very well die without passing on their knowledge.

Scipio Africanus wrote:

McNinja wrote: STCs can be improved upon in nearly every way, yet because the Mechanicus holds them so near and dear to their hearts, they reject any other original designs as ass, even if those designs are better in every way.

The Imperium is dumb because they have allowed themselves to slip into a dark age of technology (an actual dark age) where no marked improvements can be made on any technology, no matter what.

Also, just because they have higher technology than we do today does not mean that innovating is any harder or easier. Until the IoM gets the level that an individual can make stars go supernova or create super-massive black holes using a special glove, they have light-years of room for improvement.

What's wrong with a rhino? Its resilient, robust and small - perfect!

Storm raven.

Also, it's not like they chose to slip into a dark age. they were brought to a point of near extinction - or does the horus heresy have nothing to do with this?

Eventually, they'll have a renaissance.

Now, no matter how dumb the imperium is, it's never as bad as misusing light-years as a measurement of time.

IT's a measurement of length. its how far light travels in a year - a constant year, as in 365 days.

So that's like saying they have normal years of improvement.

1 light year = 9.4605284 × 10^15 meters, or six trillion miles. They have that much room for improvement.

The heresy had something to do with it... about 9 thousand years ago, when Legions were being split and Chapters were being built/rebuilt and the imperium was stretched thin. After they recovered, they just sat around with their thumbs in their toasters,

Rhino:terrible design. Its like WW1 with advanced tech. No thought was put into how to deflect blasts instead of just taking it head on. Why do we not see this design anywhere, in any military? Because it sucks. I don't care how sturdy it is, it could be twice as sturdy if the design was updated.

Stormraven: By all rights it shouldn't even by able to fly. Like the Orks, the IoM has the ability to make thinks work that shouldn't, except they just ignore silly concepts like "lift" and "aerodynamics."

Also, renaissances don't take 10,000 years. keep in mind that 10,000 years is almost as long as civilization has been around. Do you honestly think (and does GW expect us to honestly think) that in 10,000 years, no political, social, or economic force has even tried to say "hey guys, I know the STC designs are sweet and work well, but maybe we could make them better?" It wasn't 10,000 years between bronze age and the Iron age, or iron and steel. it was thousands, or even centuries. That being said, I hope the renaissance comes soon for the IoM.

McNinja wrote:
Also, renaissances don't take 10,000 years. keep in mind that 10,000 years is almost as long as civilization has been around. Do you honestly think (and does GW expect us to honestly think) that in 10,000 years, no political, social, or economic force has even tried to say "hey guys, I know the STC designs are sweet and work well, but maybe we could make them better?" It wasn't 10,000 years between bronze age and the Iron age, or iron and steel. it was thousands, or even centuries. That being said, I hope the renaissance comes soon for the IoM.

No, there have been such forces, and the Dark Heresy RPG even mentions one of them: the Logicians. However they are persecuted by the establishment for their violation of dogma. As for individuals, sure a farmer in the middle of nowhere on an isolated agri-world might possibly tinker with his tractor and maybe get away with it as nobody bothers to inspect it, but that is a far cry from trying to get a mass produced military design modified, which would require retooling of factories. As I also wrote in my previous post, the STC technology level may be of a sufficient level that modifications or improvement upon it requires a concerted effort, requiring an appropriate level of infrastructure and educated personnel to be involved, not simply one innovative tinkerer working alone. That kind of organized effort is ruthlessly stamped on by the Imperium.

Also, as mentioned above, the ideological position of the Adeptus Mechanicus needs to be considered. All forms of progress are portrayed as rediscoveries. I would suspect somewhere in there, there might be genuine original progress but it is bound by the need to jump through ideological hoops and loopholes to be able to justify something as an allowed variant within the STC system (even if it not actually true).

The attitude of the Imperium towards technology is described in one of the Imperial Armour books and it is quite different from the modern viewpoint, which seems to be something you are having trouble escaping from. To claim to go beyond the STC is completely illogical according to the ideology of the Adeptus Mechanicus as it is held by them to by definition to be the sum total of all knowledge worth knowing. It goes even beyond being illogical to being dangerous hubris and pride to think one could go beyond the ancients. That kind of mentality may sound foreign today but it was the case in many societies historically for many centuries. The Adeptus Mechanicus and Imperium's response to most problems isn't to research and improve a piece of technology or make it more efficient. It often is to use greater quantity or greater size (if possible).

The Logicans are actualy rather insane. While their basic idea, that of actual research, might be sound their total lack of morals and obvious lust for power does much to discredit the more rational parts of their ideology.

Adeptus Mechanicus =/= Imperium of Man.

They're more of a smaller allied empire, or at least were as fluff likes to change stuff so I'm not sure if they still are.

McNinja wrote:The fact that STCs are worshipped as the pinnacle of human tech is what makes the Imperium stupid beyond comprehension.

So? We are saying the same for books.

STCs can be improved upon in nearly every way, yet because the Mechanicus holds them so near and dear to their hearts, they reject any other original designs as ass, even if those designs are better in every way.

Because there are very little people who understand how STC work and none who know how to replicate. Adn you don't want some random Human take STC and destroy it by accident.

The Imperium is dumb because they have allowed themselves to slip into a dark age of technology (an actual dark age) where no marked improvements can be made on any technology, no matter what.

That is not their fault. Reason why Imperium is in this position is:

-they are constantly under attack from all sides, a situation that puts military production above all else.
-how many projects, STC's and experiments were ruined by Chaos and Xeno raids?
-how many corrupted Humans are out there who are interested in nothing more then personal advancement instead of Greater Good of all population.
-if you are so smart then build me one Emperor class starship or Lasgun. You can't? How hard is to build something you don't know squat about?
-because of all the reason up there, the Mechanicus is keeping all of it's STC's in a secret vault on Mars to prevent Age of Strife from happening again. That also includes sharing their technology with other Forge Worlds.
-the "Machine Spirit" is a farce, it is just paravan set for others to believe that it is actual God that run the machines not just basic programming or simple mechanics. They are doing that for 2 reasons: to remain ultimate Mankind technological masters and to prevent others from exploring and thus inventing something with more damage then use.

Also, just because they have higher technology than we do today does not mean that innovating is any harder or easier. Until the IoM gets the level that an individual can make stars go supernova or create super-massive black holes using a special glove, they have light-years of room for improvement.

Not even Necrons have that and they are most powerful when it comes to technology. And for your information AM is actually improving tech on several levels. But that is going very hard because they are afraid not to blow up something in process or make it worse. Just look at Marine power armor or Imperial tanks. ( Mk I Predator and Mk IV Predator ).
And we are the ones who are primitive in comparison to them, they are at least united while we are living on a single planet with 204 independent countries

KingDeath wrote:The Logicans are actualy rather insane. While their basic idea, that of actual research, might be sound their total lack of morals and obvious lust for power does much to discredit the more rational parts of their ideology.

I never said the Logicians were necessarily good or sane. They are extremists. The thing to remember is the paradigm of rational thinking and scientific progress has been so lost and persecuted and discredited over the past 10,000+ years, that any attempt to revive it is like trying to resurrect a long dead culture's mythology and belief system.

The Logicians I suspect have no idea really what they are doing, thus for their portrayals have come off as mad scientists rather than as any real rational think tank approach that involves sharing and communication of information or reasonably planned experiments. They pay lip service to the idea of reason and progress but they may not really understand what that means, even for the true believers. A single "mad scientist" on his own is not going to be able to single handedly reconstruct the STC or any other Dark Age of Technology wonder. In a way, they are like the Adeptus Mechanicus in having their own individual innovators, perhaps grouped into like minded small groups, but with little indication of any real peer review or anything approaching the scientific method as understood by 21st century people.

Iracundus wrote:
The attitude of the Imperium towards technology is described in one of the Imperial Armour books and it is quite different from the modern viewpoint, which seems to be something you are having trouble escaping from. To claim to go beyond the STC is completely illogical according to the ideology of the Adeptus Mechanicus as it is held by them to by definition to be the sum total of all knowledge worth knowing. It goes even beyond being illogical to being dangerous hubris and pride to think one could go beyond the ancients. That kind of mentality may sound foreign today but it was the case in many societies historically for many centuries. The Adeptus Mechanicus and Imperium's response to most problems isn't to research and improve a piece of technology or make it more efficient. It often is to use greater quantity or greater size (if possible).

Can you expand on this?

Iracundus wrote:snip

I get it, but that doesn't make it any less dumb. However, during the middle ages, it wasn't so much "don't fix what isn't broken" as "we have other things to worry about." The fact that the STCs are worshipped as the pinnacle of human tech, and as such don't really need to be improved, is not good. The lack of technical knowledge is not good.

Invention and inovation are heresy as they led to the dark age of technology and the war against the Iron Men. The only learn new things by finding STCs and lost blueprints, and even then a lot of things get lost in Mars' filing system

McNinja wrote:The fact that STCs are worshipped as the pinnacle of human tech is what makes the Imperium stupid beyond comprehension.

STCs can be improved upon in nearly every way, yet because the Mechanicus holds them so near and dear to their hearts, they reject any other original designs as ass, even if those designs are better in every way.

From an objective view point, you'll find a lot of people have faith in technology that they have no idea on how it works.
Even really basic stuff. Everyone is taught long division; but who knows why long division works?
How about something more complex; such as how my key board strikes generate a message on a screen that magically show up all over the world.
If we had a dark age; lets say a black out, for a historically short time, say 5 generations, how quickly do you think we would rebound? Would we rebound?

STC do get modified, just not by Mars. Check out blood angels, they are slapping super charged engines on everything.

-Matt

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:As long as other races exist that have better technology than the Imperium, the IoM has no good excuse for being so stagnant.

Of course it does: Ideology.

Ideology is not a good reason for doing something. It's an explanation for doing something, not a justification.

Brother Coa wrote:

McNinja wrote:The fact that STCs are worshipped as the pinnacle of human tech is what makes the Imperium stupid beyond comprehension.

So? We are saying the same for books.

what do you mean?

Brother Coa wrote:

McNinja wrote:STCs can be improved upon in nearly every way, yet because the Mechanicus holds them so near and dear to their hearts, they reject any other original designs as ass, even if those designs are better in every way.

Because there are very little people who understand how STC work and none who know how to replicate. Adn you don't want some random Human take STC and destroy it by accident.

That's the thing: the actual template would never be available to anyone outside of the AdMech. The problem is the AdMech themselves. There are billions of people who could not only figure out STCs, but also improve them. However, the constraint put on how STCs are designed, developed, and upgraded shrinks that number down from a few billion to a few. And sadly, those few are part of the AdMech.

Brother Coa wrote:

McNinja wrote:The Imperium is dumb because they have allowed themselves to slip into a dark age of technology (an actual dark age) where no marked improvements can be made on any technology, no matter what.

That is not their fault. Reason why Imperium is in this position is:

-they are constantly under attack from all sides, a situation that puts military production above all else.
-how many projects, STC's and experiments were ruined by Chaos and Xeno raids?
-how many corrupted Humans are out there who are interested in nothing more then personal advancement instead of Greater Good of all population.
-if you are so smart then build me one Emperor class starship or Lasgun. You can't? How hard is to build something you don't know squat about?
-because of all the reason up there, the Mechanicus is keeping all of it's STC's in a secret vault on Mars to prevent Age of Strife from happening again. That also includes sharing their technology with other Forge Worlds.
-the "Machine Spirit" is a farce, it is just paravan set for others to believe that it is actual God that run the machines not just basic programming or simple mechanics. They are doing that for 2 reasons: to remain ultimate Mankind technological masters and to prevent others from exploring and thus inventing something with more damage then use.

There is no greater time for innovation than during wartime, when having the edge over your enemy could spell their defeat or your doom. But, from top to bottom,

-As it should. They should also strive to improve their tech, so they don't have to produce as much and it lasts longer
-I'm not sure.... thousands? More? Perhaps the AdMech should have some sort of testing/R&D center not in the middle of unprotected space?
-There are plenty of galactic douchebags, but it isn't hard to keep people out of military testing zones. Perhaps if the AdMech could understand the concept of tight security as more than just having a regiment of Skitarri (sp?) at their doorstep, then maybe they could not have their tech stolen.
-That isn't the point. I can't build a Lasgun (a Bolter is probably the only weapon we could produce today, although most IoM tanks and airplanes wouldn't be too hard to produce), or a space ship. I'm saying that everything could stand to be improved, not that I have the technological know-how to do it. I'm not trying to come off as the master of machinery or anything like that.
-They should prevent an Age of Strife. Strife isn't good.
-And that is why they are morons. Technology is not magic, nor is it religion. It is science. Anyone who knows anything about the IoM and their tech (within the 40k universe) would know that the Machine Spirit is just a complex half-AI program, thus making the name "Machine Spirit" pointless to all but those who really don't know any better.

Brother Coa wrote:

McNinja wrote:Also, just because they have higher technology than we do today does not mean that innovating is any harder or easier. Until the IoM gets the level that an individual can make stars go supernova or create super-massive black holes using a special glove, they have light-years of room for improvement.

Not even Necrons have that and they are most powerful when it comes to technology. And for your information AM is actually improving tech on several levels. But that is going very hard because they are afraid not to blow up something in process or make it worse. Just look at Marine power armor or Imperial tanks. ( Mk I Predator and Mk IV Predator ).
And we are the ones who are primitive in comparison to them, they are at least united while we are living on a single planet with 204 independent countries

Yet we don't worship technology as religion and have the capacity to understand and improve on our current tech. Also, the bolded part is part of my argument: There will always room for improvement until you can shape galaxies with the press of a button. And yes, I know the IoM/AdMech do introduce new models with improvements, but those improvements are not large ones, like the difference between the iPhone 4 and the iPhone 4S.

McNinja wrote:what do you mean?

To many, books are pinnacle of Human technology - a thing that we use to store knowledge and share it with everyone.
Many call it the greatest invention in Human history.
Now you try to innovate and change books into something else, you will find that many would disagree.
Same is Mechanicus if you try to change or to play with STC.

McNinja wrote:That's the thing: the actual template would never be available to anyone outside of the AdMech. The problem is the AdMech themselves. There are billions of people who could not only figure out STCs, but also improve them. However, the constraint put on how STCs are designed, developed, and upgraded shrinks that number down from a few billion to a few. And sadly, those few are part of the AdMech.

You are missing the point here, and you are misinformed. In the entire Human race ONLY ADEPTUS MECHANICUS KNOWS TO WORK AROUND STC, NOBODY ELSE. And it is their duty to prevent others with "experimenting" with them and thus destroying them.
I am very good with computers and electronics, would NASA let me do and poke around their supercomputer to "figure out and improve it"?

McNinja wrote:There is no greater time for innovation than during wartime, when having the edge over your enemy could spell their defeat or your doom. But, from top to bottom.

And what part: "they don't quite understand how this work" you don't understand? They build their all tech using desinges from past, but they don't know how they work because fundamentalism laws that scientist posted in past are lost forever. And how can you work on something when enemy is literally over your head ready to strike you. You would grab your weapon and defend yourself, not sit and try to improve something that you may not use because you will die in the meantime.

-As it should. They should also strive to improve their tech, so they don't have to produce as much and it lasts longer

They are doing that, just check Astartes armor and many other things.

-I'm not sure.... thousands? More? Perhaps the AdMech should have some sort of testing/R&D center not in the middle of unprotected space?

You put your labs in space where is little to no known activity, that is what AM has done. But Mankind enemies in 40k always find them and destroy them, no matter for them being in the middle of nowhere... ( plot armor ). And they have library, it's on Mars.

-There are plenty of galactic douchebags, but it isn't hard to keep people out of military testing zones. Perhaps if the AdMech could understand the concept of tight security as more than just having a regiment of Skitarri (sp?) at their doorstep, then maybe they could not have their tech stolen.

And you are forgetting that this is 40k and influenced Inquisitor and planetary Governor can find it's way to steal the prints. Ork looters, Eldar pirates and Chaos Marine Renegades to. SOmetimes you just can't defeat the Human greed.

-That isn't the point. I can't build a Lasgun (a Bolter is probably the only weapon we could produce today, although most IoM tanks and airplanes wouldn't be too hard to produce), or a space ship. I'm saying that everything could stand to be improved, not that I have the technological know-how to do it. I'm not trying to come off as the master of machinery or anything like that.

Again look at many thing Mechanicus HAD improved over time. And because we can't produce even the simplest of weapons ( we can't produce their aircraft because it was also build for space combat, not to mention Space Ships or teleports ) we can only shut up and look at them with respect.

-They should prevent an Age of Strife. Strife isn't good.

They are working on it, that library on Mars isn't for showing like Trayzns vault.

-And that is why they are morons. Technology is not magic, nor is it religion. It is science. Anyone who knows anything about the IoM and their tech (within the 40k universe) would know that the Machine Spirit is just a complex half-AI program, thus making the name "Machine Spirit" pointless to all but those who really don't know any better.

They know that, their "religion" is nothing more then me praying to God that my car start in the cold winter morning. They are only telling that to ordinary people of the Imperium to not let them experiment with stuff. They perfectly know what science and religion is and how most their tech work.

McNinja wrote:Yet we don't worship technology as religion and have the capacity to understand and improve on our current tech. Also, the bolded part is part of my argument: There will always room for improvement until you can shape galaxies with the press of a button. And yes, I know the IoM/AdMech do introduce new models with improvements, but those improvements are not large ones, like the difference between the iPhone 4 and the iPhone 4S.

And again you are missing the point - THE PRAYING TO MACHINE GOD IS JUST COVER UP FOR THE ORDINARY PEOPLE, THEY UNDERSTAND PERFECTLY HOW THEIR TECH WORK, besides most advanced thing that they don't have STC or basic theory for ( like Golden Throne or Astronomicon ). And their improvements are not small, just look at tanks and ships how they became more powerful in the process. And they are still improvements, meaning that Mechancus is actually doing something that require understanding of their specific object. Why are they not doing experiments liek our scientist today? Because they don't have to, they have STC witch contain most of Human knowledge and science theories ( remember that Humans achieved their maximum in the Golden Age of Humanity and Mechanicus probably knows large number of those theories ), the only problem is build something that can work and be efficient against your opponent.

edit

Brother Coa wrote:

McNinja wrote:what do you mean?

To many, books are pinnacle of Human technology - a thing that we use to store knowledge and share it with everyone.
Many call it the greatest invention in Human history.
Now you try to innovate and change books into something else, you will find that many would disagree.
Same is Mechanicus if you try to change or to play with STC.

Sorry but this is nonsense. Books are a way to store information no more no less. The information is what is actualy valuable. Unlike the Imperium of Man we accept that the contained information is mutable, either by being disproven or by new scientifical results.

Brother Coa wrote:

McNinja wrote:That's the thing: the actual template would never be available to anyone outside of the AdMech. The problem is the AdMech themselves. There are billions of people who could not only figure out STCs, but also improve them. However, the constraint put on how STCs are designed, developed, and upgraded shrinks that number down from a few billion to a few. And sadly, those few are part of the AdMech.

You are missing the point here, and you are misinformed. In the entire Human race ONLY ADEPTUS MECHANICUS KNOWS TO WORK AROUND STC, NOBODY ELSE. And it is their duty to prevent others with "experimenting" with them and thus destroying them.
I am very good with computers and electronics, would NASA let me do and poke around their supercomputer to "figure out and improve it"?

There are no STC computers/libraries left in the 40. millenium. What is left are copies and blueprints which contain the schematics to produce certain pieces of technology. The Mechanicus collects these
few blueprints/physical copies that are left. Thanks to their religion they now consider the information which can be found on these physical copies to be imutable and holy. There is no logical reason
why experimentation and inovation with the informations contained on these blueprints ( which can be, of course, copied ) should be forbidden, only dogma.
Your example is therefore unfitting. The NASA would not let you tamper with their priceless supercomputer but perhaps they would allow you to copy, study and improve it's blueprints.

The Mechanicus fails because it is steeped in dogma and not because there is no other way. While large parts of the Imperium are engulfed in war this is by no means the rule for all of it.
Peaceful research would be easily possible on quite a few worlds which haven't seen war for thousands of years. What little technological progress the Imperium was able to make is, far too often limited
to small optimisations and variations, with very few completely new technologies discovered.
The theory that the irational aspects of the Mechanicus's creed are merely a convenient lie to keep the unwashed masses away cannot be held up because there is plenty of evidence which points to the other direction. The techpriests of mars belief in the Omnisiah and they believe in the Machinespirit. While this believe does not has to be total ( they most certainly also know much of the underlying principles of their various technologies ) it nonetheless pervades everything they do.

KingDeath wrote:
Sorry but this is nonsense. Books are a way to store information no more no less.

Historians and scientist call them the greatest invention in Human history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:
There are no STC computers/libraries left in the 40 millenium.

The Great ( and secret ) library of Mars is the biggest. Every Forgeworld have it's own mini STC libraries.


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KingDeath wrote:
Your example is therefore unfitting. The NASA would not let you tamper with their priceless supercomputer but perhaps they would allow you to copy, study and improve it's blueprints.

No, the NASA wouldn't give me to tamper wit hit because there is 140% chance that I will break it.
Same as Mechanicus won't give some random peasant to tamper with Imperator Titan.

And NASA would give me only minor details about their SC, while rest would be classified.
Mechanicus wouldn't give me anything and that is the main difference.

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
Sorry but this is nonsense. Books are a way to store information no more no less.

Historians and scientist call them the greatest invention in Human history.

/o\ They are a great inovation because they allow to store information. My point still stands.

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Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
There are no STC computers/libraries left in the 40 millenium.

The Great ( and secret ) library of Mars is the biggest. Every Forgeworld have it's own mini STC libraries.

These are libraries / databanks which contain STC blueprints and not STCs themselfs. Your reasoning was that the Mechanicus does not tamper with the existing STC designs because they are afraid to damage something. This is wrong since there are no STC systems left to actualy damage, only copies which can be copied again ( otherwise it would be impossible to create a Leman Russ factory for example ). It is therefore easily possible to tamper with existing designs without actualy damaging the original STC printouts, contained in the martian libraries, themselfs.
Your point is only valid when it comes to reverse engineering technologies which have no STC printouts/ blueprints stored somewhere. I cannot simply take apart an Emperor class battleship just to find out how it works because i might not be able to put it back together.

Calling the Imperium dumb is just as much a generalization as calling all Eldar backstabbing scum.

It will only make people angry and both ideas are incorrect.

Brother Coa wrote:

To many, books are pinnacle of Human technology - a thing that we use to store knowledge and share it with everyone.
Many call it the greatest invention in Human history.
Now you try to innovate and change books into something else, you will find that many would disagree.
Same is Mechanicus if you try to change or to play with STC.

Books are not the pinnacle of technology. Books were invented to allow us to store information. That is all. They were a damn important invention, but now we have Tablets and smartphones and PCs that also allow us to do the same thing and more. If STCs are books, then the Tablet or smartphone is what they could be.

You are missing the point here, and you are misinformed. In the entire Human race ONLY ADEPTUS MECHANICUS KNOWS TO WORK AROUND STC, NOBODY ELSE. And it is their duty to prevent others with "experimenting" with them and thus destroying them.
I am very good with computers and electronics, would NASA let me do and poke around their supercomputer to "figure out and improve it"?

I am well aware of who knows how to work the STCs. There are brilliant people throughout the galaxy, not just the AdMech, but because those people will never get the chance to even see an STC, they can do nothing to help the Imperium. STCs are blueprints, nothing more. I am not saying let everyone mess with the STCs, but after 10,000 years, the improvements they have made fall short of what they could be.

And what part: "they don't quite understand how this work" you don't understand? They build their all tech using desinges from past, but they don't know how they work because fundamentalism laws that scientist posted in past are lost forever. And how can you work on something when enemy is literally over your head ready to strike you. You would grab your weapon and defend yourself, not sit and try to improve something that you may not use because you will die in the meantime.

Designs from the past that are extremely well-preserved. Lets say you have a piece of equipment. You don't know how it works, but it is really important that you and your team figure it out. What do you do? You reverse engineer it, something the AdMech seems to not know how to do.

As for their enemies... I don't think the AdMech on Mars are sittig in a room trembling beause a horde of Chaos mooks are stomping outside the door. There are thousands of isolated worlds that the AdMech could test tech on (not to mention Mars) that would have a 99.9% chance to not get attacked ever. Just because WH40k is about war, does not mean every single planet in every single system if fighting a desperate battle against the forces of evil.

They are doing that, just check Astartes armor and many other things.

Barely.

You put your labs in space where is little to no known activity, that is what AM has done. But Mankind enemies in 40k always find them and destroy them, no matter for them being in the middle of nowhere... ( plot armor ). And they have library, it's on Mars.

Then keep it all on Mars. Mars is pretty freaking big, and I'm sure that they can make room somewhere on it to test new stuff.

And you are forgetting that this is 40k and influenced Inquisitor and planetary Governor can find it's way to steal the prints. Ork looters, Eldar pirates and Chaos Marine Renegades to. SOmetimes you just can't defeat the Human greed.

It happens. It always has, and always will. Maybe if Inquisitors didn't actually have so much power they wouldn't be able to get away with so much, and last I checked, looters of any race don't tend to come Roflstomping around Mars that often. Human greed often gets the better of many people. However, there are security measures and systems that could be in place to prevent stealing STCs or knowledge of them.

Again look at many thing Mechanicus HAD improved over time. And because we can't produce even the simplest of weapons ( we can't produce their aircraft because it was also build for space combat, not to mention Space Ships or teleports ) we can only shut up and look at them with respect.

Not really. Just because their tech is better does't mean they are better than we are. It just means they would kill us quicker. I have no respect for the dogma spewing AdMech or the genocide-condoning Imperium.

They are working on it, that library on Mars isn't for showing like Trayzns vault.

Good for them. Hopefully their descendants won't be morons.

They know that, their "religion" is nothing more then me praying to God that my car start in the cold winter morning. They are only telling that to ordinary people of the Imperium to not let them experiment with stuff. They perfectly know what science and religion is and how most their tech work.

If only the AdMech know about the about the STCs, the religion shouldn't be necessary. Yet, it is. The AdMech believes in the Omnissiah full-heartedly, and because they have a weak grasp of the technology they produce, they tend to refer to it as more magic than science.

And again you are missing the point - THE PRAYING TO MACHINE GOD IS JUST COVER UP FOR THE ORDINARY PEOPLE, THEY UNDERSTAND PERFECTLY HOW THEIR TECH WORK, besides most advanced thing that they don't have STC or basic theory for ( like Golden Throne or Astronomicon ). And their improvements are not small, just look at tanks and ships how they became more powerful in the process. And they are still improvements, meaning that Mechancus is actually doing something that require understanding of their specific object. Why are they not doing experiments liek our scientist today? Because they don't have to, they have STC witch contain most of Human knowledge and science theories ( remember that Humans achieved their maximum in the Golden Age of Humanity and Mechanicus probably knows large number of those theories ), the only problem is build something that can work and be efficient against your opponent.

They might understand, but the prevalence of that "religion" suggests that they believe it too. You can't spew dogma for 10,000 years and not believe a word of it. Eventually, someone will, and they will pass that knowledge down. Also, just because the IoM reached a Golden Age does not mean they reached the pinnacle of technology. There is always room for improvement.


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Alexzandvar wrote:Calling the Imperium dumb is just as much a generalization as calling all Eldar backstabbing scum.

It will only make people angry and both ideas are incorrect.

The decisions the IoM makes on a daily basis are so bad they make the characters from the movie Splice made great choices.

Honestly, I'm not all that familiar with the Eldar, but saying the Imperium is not stupid is probably worse than saying it is.

KingDeath wrote:
/o\ They are a great inovation because they allow to store information. My point still stands.

Without them we woudl lost all our knowledge, like we lost all knowledge about ancient times - only because none record about these times except few individuals ( like Plato, without him we woudn't know about Atlantis or Troy ). If we stop recording all we know right now, all our knowledge would be lost in some 300 - 500 years and that is why, to science and history, the book and written language are Mankind's greatest achievements.

The imperium to to play themselves as the good guys. As we all know..

McNinja wrote:
Books are not the pinnacle of technology. Books were invented to allow us to store information. That is all. They were a damn important invention, but now we have Tablets and smartphones and PCs that also allow us to do the same thing and more. If STCs are books, then the Tablet or smartphone is what they could be.

You do know that information stored on CD's and Hard Drives will be lost over time? Because of the properties of that devices, information on them fade in time, while books can last very long time ( 1000 years or ~if preserved properly ).


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And it is said ~ times that we can't compare Imeprium with us. Sure they can improve tech and had all their citizens drive flying cars and have big homes, if they are not in war for like more then 10.000 years.
Emperor wanted to return Mankind in the Golden Age again, with him gone that dream has also gone. And until peace is restored to the galaxy there will be none to little improvement when it comes to technology.
As for the question if they are dumb - they are. Planetary Governors are dumb as zombie, same thing goes for Imperial Commanders and Commissars.
Mechanicus aren't dumb - just ignorant.
Others are somewhat smart, but without real position of power they are locked in that situation.

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
/o\ They are a great inovation because they allow to store information. My point still stands.

Without them we woudl lost all our knowledge, like we lost all knowledge about ancient times - only because none record about these times except few individuals ( like Plato, without him we woudn't know about Atlantis or Troy ). If we stop recording all we know right now, all our knowledge would be lost in some 300 - 500 years and that is why, to science and history, the book and written language are Mankind's greatest achievements.

You spoke about the book, not written language. Written language can be stored on much more than books. You still fail to see the differences between books, which are one carrier medium for written language, written language, which is the carrier medium for knowledge, and knowledge itself. Of course this has very little to do with the Mechanicus's problem. Their lack of inovation is caused by their dogma and not because it would somehow "magicaly" damage the remaining STC copies, just like buying and reading a modern copy of De civitate Dei won't damage one of it's medieval transcriptions.

Actually, there's some misunderstanding 'bout "lost technologies" - ie inability to produce something that was produced before.
First of all - if it's not some very obscure archeotech which wasn't produced since DAoT, chances are that it's produced somewhere in quantities that would make current factories to cover face in shame....but just a waterdrop in ocean compared to Imperial needs.
Second - despite dark-agy feel, Imperium is very high-tech society, with millenia-old standarts. Thus anything you mass-produce need not only to be better, but actually as compatible as possible to prior products. So lance battery with 1.5x range compared to previous model is useless if it's need new model powerfeeds that will degrade in decade and can be repaired/produced on Mars only.
Third - number of tech in RL is "lost" despite intact archives (something that AdMech/Imperials can only dream of) - just as industrial base for them was worn-out/dismantled and was deemed too costly\unnecessary to be rebuild at time, then people with hands-on experience and know-hows were lost to time. We'll need to built this industry anew and train new people for example for building something comparable to Saturn V or Energia launch vehicles. Do Imperium has neccesary funds and need for similar efforts is something BL/'dexes can't tell, as most probably in this dark future of only war it's more cost-efficient to crank up production of something already they already producing (for same total price).
And last - actually in M40 there's only one notable race which inovate. But Tau never suffered something similar to Fall or Old Night/Heresy, and frankly - they still didn't reach level of DAoT's Mankind.

Yeah, they're pretty dumb. Dark ages, more abouts.