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Since BA Assault Marines can give up their jump packs to get a 35 point discount, why not give up the jump packs for a free Rhino? You get the faster mobility, get the increased durability of a vehicle and even 2 firing points to shoot out dual meltas or flamers. All for the same cost!

Here are some weak points I could see with this option.

-Lose the ability to jump over terrain
-If Rhino is popped, Assault Marines will have to footslog it, which isn't the best choice
-Can't hide from enemy LOS as easily as jump packs

So is it viable to use Assault Marines in Rhinos?

Razorbacks are better. Dirt cheap with the non-jump pack discount. Plus they're Fast.

I've thought about Razorbacks, with the jump pack discount and the las-plas upgrade, it comes to 55 points for it whilst a Rhino is only 25 points, why not use the extra 30 points for other long range anti tank units such as Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders etc. Plus the Rhino can carry 10 Marines while the Razorback can only carry 6.

There isn't really a right or wrong way. I think if you build it with rhinos thats fine. Would be a refreshing break from all the net lists telling you to bring las plas backs

5 to 6 assault marines is a bit light to be charging other units in cc.

Rhinos carry a full 10 man squad, and on turn 1 the rhino is faster and more durable. The faster and more durable comment may seem a bit off given that the rhino and razorback have the same speed and armor, but on turn 1 the razorback is only going to move 12" so it can fire it's gun compared to the rhino which is going to move 18" and pop smoke. Typically speaking razorbacks only tend to move 18" and pop smoke when they take a shaken or weapon destroyed damage result.

There isn't really a right or wrong way. I think if you build it with rhinos thats fine. Would be a refreshing break from all the net lists telling you to bring las plas backs

Yeah, I'm trying to not use a net list. I rather try and make a list thats more suitable to my play style.

5 to 6 assault marines is a bit light to be charging other units in cc.

Rhinos carry a full 10 man squad, and on turn 1 the rhino is faster and more durable. The faster and more durable comment may seem a bit off given that the rhino and razorback have the same speed and armor, but on turn 1 the razorback is only going to move 12" so it can fire it's gun compared to the rhino which is going to move 18" and pop smoke. Typically speaking razorbacks only tend to move 18" and pop smoke when they take a shaken or weapon destroyed damage result.

Exactly right, whats the point of putting Assault Marines into Razorback when your just gonna move and shoot instead of moving up the full speed? Why not put Assault Marines into Rhinos and use the extra points you save to get other units which perform the same role as the Razorback?

Tbh I was only going to use a rhino, though I'm still completely new I was thinking 9 assaults and a priest in each one and let the rhino take as much beating as it could when or if it gets blown up jump out and JP the rest of the way

Gharron wrote:Tbh I was only going to use a rhino, though I'm still completely new I was thinking 9 assaults and a priest in each one and let the rhino take as much beating as it could when or if it gets blown up jump out and JP the rest of the way

Can't put marines with JP in a rhino.

I say go all out, and put the assault marines in dedicated land raiders!
That way you can get the full squad in, and still have room for the priest.


-Matt

Gharron wrote:Tbh I was only going to use a rhino, though I'm still completely new I was thinking 9 assaults and a priest in each one and let the rhino take as much beating as it could when or if it gets blown up jump out and JP the rest of the way


Can't put marines with JP in a rhino.

I say go all out, and put the assault marines in dedicated land raiders!
That way you can get the full squad in, and still have room for the priest.


-Matt

I would prefer a full 10 men of Assault Marines in Rhinos rather than 9 guys with a Priest. Gives you 1 more melta/flamer. Plus, you could always have another unit of Assault Marines with a Priest jumping around and coordinating attacks with the Rhino Assault Marines.

Land Raiders are too expensive for Assault Marines imo, better to put Assault Terminators in Land Raiders

Personally, I like the idea of all jump pack marines, supporting predator tanks.

You can fit a good 40-50 assault marines with jump packs in a list packing 5 predators... rhinos are cool and all, but if it gets popped your assault marines don't have any mobility!

Also, DoA is a rule you shouldn't overestimate... if playing against an opponent with some scary shooting, holding everything in reserve rocks (if you have second turn), and then you can just drop in on him while outflanking baals tear into him.

Well, Assault Marines in Razorbacks is the way, 5 Marines w/ melta, combi-flamer. But you need some heavy tanks like Predators and Vindicators to back up the list and provide target saturation.

Personally, I like the idea of all jump pack marines, supporting predator tanks.

You can fit a good 40-50 assault marines with jump packs in a list packing 5 predators... rhinos are cool and all, but if it gets popped your assault marines don't have any mobility!

Also, DoA is a rule you shouldn't overestimate... if playing against an opponent with some scary shooting, holding everything in reserve rocks (if you have second turn), and then you can just drop in on him while outflanking baals tear into him.

Why not use Assault Marines with Rhinos and Predators? If the opponent brings some scary shooting, simply hold the Marines in reserve and keep the Rhinos empty on the board. They can be used to contest, block LOS, or just ram them at the enemy.

Well, Assault Marines in Razorbacks is the way, 5 Marines w/ melta, combi-flamer. But you need some heavy tanks like Predators and Vindicators to back up the list and provide target saturation.

Assault Marines in las-plas razorbacks seem to be the norm yes. But I'm trying to find a viable alternative to that using Rhinos. If you use Rhinos, you could save points to get even more preds, vindis, etc to back up the list and provide target saturation.

Well, if you want to use Assault Marines in Rhinos, give them 2 special weapons of the same kind, like melta(s) and combi-melta.

Well, if you want to use Assault Marines in Rhinos, give them 2 special weapons of the same kind, like melta(s) and combi-melta.

Of course, sort of like a assaulty Tactical squad innit?

For some reason it seems quite decent to have a dual melta Assault squad firing through a Rhino's hatches all day long.

For some reason it seems quite decent to have a dual melta Assault squad firing through a Rhino's hatches all day long.

That has also been my experience with them. Their sort of like a better Tactical Squad.

Jereziah wrote:

For some reason it seems quite decent to have a dual melta Assault squad firing through a Rhino's hatches all day long.

That has also been my experience with them. Their sort of like a better Tactical Squad.

Tactical Marines in a BA army is a no-no especially because Assault Marines w/o jump packs get a discount on the transport.

wuestenfux wrote:

Jereziah wrote:

For some reason it seems quite decent to have a dual melta Assault squad firing through a Rhino's hatches all day long.

That has also been my experience with them. Their sort of like a better Tactical Squad.

Tactical Marines in a BA army is a no-no especially because Assault Marines w/o jump packs get a discount on the transport.

Either you are talking about a 5 man squad with melta and with a priest, maybe even a techmarine with combimelta. In which case that is a cheap option which spits out melta.
Of course to deliver 6 men a razorback is more effective, it can move 12'' and still shoot for one.

Then a tactical squad with melta, combimelta, fist then let's say a ML is cheaper than 10 assault marines with 2 meltas. With the huge advantage that the tactical squad has a good shooting range so isn't lost with out a rhino. Also in assault they loose only 7 st4/5 attacks thus the tactical squad is nearly as good as the assault squad in cc as well.

Do not get me wrong 10 marines in a rhino is expensive and should not be done. However if it were done better to have a tactical squad.

If you do go with full tactical, I'd go melta, missile, and combi-melta vet.
You have the option to drop the ML and 5 guys on an objective and then go for a drive with the vet and melta gunner.

But, if you're running tacticals and rhinos, you might want to think about why you are running blood angels.

-Matt

10 tactical marines w/ melta, ML, combi-melta on Sarge in Rhino comes in at 220 pts. 10 assault marines w/ 2x melta in Rhino comes in at 210 pts. As objective holders I reckon the extra 10 pts might well be worth it.

Ran wrote:10 tactical marines w/ melta, ML, combi-melta on Sarge in Rhino comes in at 220 pts. 10 assault marines w/ 2x melta in Rhino comes in at 210 pts. As objective holders I reckon the extra 10 pts might well be worth it.

The tac marines are going to combat squad in every objective based game anyways, so might as well buy a razorback instead.

The real use of a rhino is to move 10 assault troops forward 18" a turn. Translated into ork terminology the debate between a rhino or razorback in mech BA is a debate between choppy red gits and shooty red gits.

If you go all Rhinos you bring up a few issues which make BA Razorspam so deadly.

If you take a full 10 man squad of Assault Marines in a Rhino, how are you going to take an HQ in there? Or what about a Sanguinary Priest? They can't fit in the Rhino that can only carry 10. More importantly if you drop the squad down to 9 you lose a special weapon if I recall correctly. Then it seems like a waste to take 4 extra Assault Marines..since without a Sanguinary Priest they aren't all that great in CC and without a special weapon they aren't very good at dealing with infantry (flamer) or vehicles (meltagun).

Now let's look at the points cost. 10 Assault Marines in a Rhino is 205 points. The Rhino really can't do much from long range. The point of the Rhino is to bring in the Assault Marine Squad into CC. This presents a problem as the Rhino is now useless for a few turns. The Razorback with a 5 man squad inside with a meltagun and Las/Plas is 165 points. That's a 40 point difference. I know it doesn't seem like much but when taking 4 to 5 troop choices (which is the ideal amount usually) it starts to add up real fast. Not to mention that for an extra 50 points you can take a Sanguinary Priest with them that gives them FNP. The Razorback is also more durable against Weapon Destroyed results. No matter which is taken when it comes to Las/Plas your opponent is still left with a bad taste in their mouth.

Now if you want to do Assault Marines in a Rhino for fun. Go ahead! Just when thinking in a competitive sense I don't think it really works out all too well.

Either you are talking about a 5 man squad with melta and with a priest, maybe even a techmarine with combimelta. In which case that is a cheap option which spits out melta.
Of course to deliver 6 men a razorback is more effective, it can move 12'' and still shoot for one.

Then a tactical squad with melta, combimelta, fist then let's say a ML is cheaper than 10 assault marines with 2 meltas. With the huge advantage that the tactical squad has a good shooting range so isn't lost with out a rhino. Also in assault they loose only 7 st4/5 attacks thus the tactical squad is nearly as good as the assault squad in cc as well.

Shooting range? Their both shooting out meltas either way, so there is no difference except the Tactical squad has 1 meltagun and 1 combi-melta while the assault squad has 2 meltaguns. 7 S4/S5 attacks does make a difference too.

If you do go with full tactical, I'd go melta, missile, and combi-melta vet.
You have the option to drop the ML and 5 guys on an objective and then go for a drive with the vet and melta gunner.

But, if you're running tacticals and rhinos, you might want to think about why you are running blood angels.

-Matt

Absolutely not, thats for smurf players I'd like to run Assault Squads in Rhinos in lieu of Tactical Squads, you get roughly the same shots while in a transport ( both are going to be shooting out 2 meltas either way ) and get a better assault unit which is cheaper.

10 tactical marines w/ melta, ML, combi-melta on Sarge in Rhino comes in at 220 pts. 10 assault marines w/ 2x melta in Rhino comes in at 210 pts. As objective holders I reckon the extra 10 pts might well be worth it.

Uhh, I think your a bit off on your points, your tactical squad actually comes in at 235 points as BA rhinos are 50pts each. The assault squad is also actually 225 points. Either way, your correct about being 10 points cheaper. For being 10 points cheaper, you still get 2 meltaguns and better CC ability which makes Assault squads in rhinos vastly superior than Tactical squads in a rhino in a BA army.

The tac marines are going to combat squad in every objective based game anyways, so might as well buy a razorback instead.

The real use of a rhino is to move 10 assault troops forward 18" a turn. Translated into ork terminology the debate between a rhino or razorback in mech BA is a debate between choppy red gits and shooty red gits.

In this case though, we're talking about Assault squads, not Tactical squads.

And of course, I'd like to get my assault squads in cc asap. I don't like to stay back and shoot with my assault units.

Red Comet, where 10 man assault squads shine is when supported by something like a landraider termie squad with priest. Termies by themselves do have a few mortal enemies. Termies backed up with 10 assault marines however pretty much has no weakness thanks to mutual support. It takes 2 razorbacks to support your termies in cc, which as you point out is 330 points versus 205 for the rhino based version.

So now instead of saving 40 points by going the razorback option, you are SPENDING 125 points more for the razorback option.

If you go all Rhinos you bring up a few issues which make BA Razorspam so deadly.

If you take a full 10 man squad of Assault Marines in a Rhino, how are you going to take an HQ in there? Or what about a Sanguinary Priest? They can't fit in the Rhino that can only carry 10. More importantly if you drop the squad down to 9 you lose a special weapon if I recall correctly. Then it seems like a waste to take 4 extra Assault Marines..since without a Sanguinary Priest they aren't all that great in CC and without a special weapon they aren't very good at dealing with infantry (flamer) or vehicles (meltagun).

Now let's look at the points cost. 10 Assault Marines in a Rhino is 205 points. The Rhino really can't do much from long range. The point of the Rhino is to bring in the Assault Marine Squad into CC. This presents a problem as the Rhino is now useless for a few turns. The Razorback with a 5 man squad inside with a meltagun and Las/Plas is 165 points. That's a 40 point difference. I know it doesn't seem like much but when taking 4 to 5 troop choices (which is the ideal amount usually) it starts to add up real fast. Not to mention that for an extra 50 points you can take a Sanguinary Priest with them that gives them FNP. The Razorback is also more durable against Weapon Destroyed results. No matter which is taken when it comes to Las/Plas your opponent is still left with a bad taste in their mouth.

Now if you want to do Assault Marines in a Rhino for fun. Go ahead! Just when thinking in a competitive sense I don't think it really works out all too well.

Thanks for your input.

You bring a lot of solid points and I agree. Assault Marines in Razorbacks are still the most optimal choice, would you say Assault Marines in Rhinos are still a competitive choice or is Assault Marines in Razorbacks the only way to go if you want to win tournaments?

I think Rhinos can work fine. It's just a different build. IIRC one of the top-bracket finalists from Battle for Salvation this year, who also took 2nd place at the Conflict GT (Jorge Ruiz) runs a mixed mech list.

Here's Mike Brandt's report & analysis of their finals game (which Jorge lost);

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2011/10/battle-for-salvation-day-2-bat-reps.html

Here's Jorge's list and Mike's summarized thoughts on it:

Mephiston
Reclusiarch with I forget what

Sanguinary Priest w/ Power Weapon
5 x TH/SS Terminators

Death Company x 7 w/ Power Fist, Power Weapon, Rhino
9 Assault Marines w/ Meltagun, Power Fist or Weapon (I don't know), Rhino
5 Assault Marines w/ Meltagun, Twin-Linked Ass Can Razorback
5 Assault Marines w/ Meltagun, Twin-Linked Ass Can Razorback

2 x Speeders w/ MM/HF

2 x Autolas Predators


This is actually more of a nightmare style list for me than I really want to deal with, for the simple reason that if he can get his Death Company, Assault Squad w/ Priest, and Mephiston across the board at me ... they in addition to an "I'll probably cross just fine" Mephiston were going to ruin my day, especially in the mission. I have a lot of meltaguns, and Straken can handle A squad/threat just fine, but when you hit me with 5 deep striking th/ss terminators *and* Mephiston *and* death company w/ a reclusiarch *and* a full assault squad ... well, things get hairy in a big damned hurry. Alex Fennell used this very fact against me last year at the BFS to nearly take me down in the Semi-Finals.

I've been toying with builds using AMs in Rhinos. I think one of the keys is striking the right balance of full squads vs. partial squads so a character can ride along. You've got to get at least one Priest up there aiding multiple units. Librarians as usual are awesome. Chaplains or Reclusiarchs may help out too, especially if you're using any Death Company.

Remember that (unlike Tac squad sgts) assault squad sgts can't take combi-weapons. But they can take infernus pistols, which, while 15pts and half the range, do get you a second melta shot from a squad under the full 10 men. Or you can take a combi on the attached IC.

Jereziah wrote:Uhh, I think your a bit off on your points, your tactical squad actually comes in at 235 points as BA rhinos are 50pts each. The assault squad is also actually 225 points. Either way, your correct about being 10 points cheaper. For being 10 points cheaper, you still get 2 meltaguns and better CC ability which makes Assault squads in rhinos vastly superior than Tactical squads in a rhino in a BA army.

Whoops, thanks for pointing out the Rhino cost. But as Rhinos aren't Assault vehicles, I can't see how the Assault Marines are 'vastly superior', especially since one wouldn't let them ride around unsupported.

DevianID wrote:Red Comet, where 10 man assault squads shine is when supported by something like a landraider termie squad with priest. Termies by themselves do have a few mortal enemies. Termies backed up with 10 assault marines however pretty much has no weakness thanks to mutual support. It takes 2 razorbacks to support your termies in cc, which as you point out is 330 points versus 205 for the rhino based version.

So now instead of saving 40 points by going the razorback option, you are SPENDING 125 points more for the razorback option.

In all fairness those 40 pts also enable more target spreading/saturation... not to mention the Razor's guns.

@ Mannahnin: thanks for the read!

DevianID wrote:Red Comet, where 10 man assault squads shine is when supported by something like a landraider termie squad with priest. Termies by themselves do have a few mortal enemies. Termies backed up with 10 assault marines however pretty much has no weakness thanks to mutual support. It takes 2 razorbacks to support your termies in cc, which as you point out is 330 points versus 205 for the rhino based version.

So now instead of saving 40 points by going the razorback option, you are SPENDING 125 points more for the razorback option.

I don't see how this is great. Its overkill for sure, but it seems like too many points all concentrated to charge what? Usually all the Terminators need are a Librarian and a Sanguinary Priest to destroy things. If I have to charge 10 Assault Marines with 5 Termies in a Landraider at something I must be doing something wrong.

Jereziah wrote:

If you go all Rhinos you bring up a few issues which make BA Razorspam so deadly.

If you take a full 10 man squad of Assault Marines in a Rhino, how are you going to take an HQ in there? Or what about a Sanguinary Priest? They can't fit in the Rhino that can only carry 10. More importantly if you drop the squad down to 9 you lose a special weapon if I recall correctly. Then it seems like a waste to take 4 extra Assault Marines..since without a Sanguinary Priest they aren't all that great in CC and without a special weapon they aren't very good at dealing with infantry (flamer) or vehicles (meltagun).

Now let's look at the points cost. 10 Assault Marines in a Rhino is 205 points. The Rhino really can't do much from long range. The point of the Rhino is to bring in the Assault Marine Squad into CC. This presents a problem as the Rhino is now useless for a few turns. The Razorback with a 5 man squad inside with a meltagun and Las/Plas is 165 points. That's a 40 point difference. I know it doesn't seem like much but when taking 4 to 5 troop choices (which is the ideal amount usually) it starts to add up real fast. Not to mention that for an extra 50 points you can take a Sanguinary Priest with them that gives them FNP. The Razorback is also more durable against Weapon Destroyed results. No matter which is taken when it comes to Las/Plas your opponent is still left with a bad taste in their mouth.

Now if you want to do Assault Marines in a Rhino for fun. Go ahead! Just when thinking in a competitive sense I don't think it really works out all too well.

Thanks for your input.

You bring a lot of solid points and I agree. Assault Marines in Razorbacks are still the most optimal choice, would you say Assault Marines in Rhinos are still a competitive choice or is Assault Marines in Razorbacks the only way to go if you want to win tournaments?

You can still win tournaments with a few Rhinos...maybe 1 or 2 at most like the list Mannahnin posted. If I wanted to run a Rhino in mechanized BA I'd splash one or two squads and no more. I still find the Razorback to be a better choice though overall for what it brings to the table. I thought at first that this whole topic was about only running Rhinos. That's what happens when I read something late at night. XD

Jereziah wrote:better CC ability which makes Assault squads in rhinos vastly superior than Tactical squads in a rhino in a BA army.

You are talking about 7 st4/5 attacks this is not vast. You'll be lucky to kill a single marine with power armour with those attacks, it would maybe kill a single ork.

Red Comet wrote:If you go all Rhinos you bring up a few issues which make BA Razorspam so deadly.

If you take a full 10 man squad of Assault Marines in a Rhino, how are you going to take an HQ in there? Or what about a Sanguinary Priest?

You don't, but there are several viable options.

HQ & Priests go in a razorback with 5 assault marines + 1 HQ or 1 Priest creating a rhino/razorback split.

If HQ=Chaplain they go with death company in a rhino.

The weakness of razorback spam is it limits the number of scoring assault marines to a very low number.

The point of extra assault marines is to win assaults in CC. Negative modifiers to combat resolution or wounds taken from no retreat are both brutal. 5 man assault squads just don't pack much punch in CC.