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Hi there, i'm still new to fantasy still finishing my WoC army and reading the fluff on the armybook. While assembling my army my LGS went into a shortage for metal models and the debts due to xmas drained all my money right when i was about to finish my army, so i had to work with the models I own, sadly I was 1 sorcerer short for a pretty good list.

Trying to avoid spending more i remembered i had bought one of the vampire counts models (the one with the bat wing) a few years back, just because i liked the model, knowing that all the vampires are sorcerers... and looking forward to use a Sorcerer with lore of death it seemed like a good idea to use that model instead, however when trying to use some bits on it i realized that the vampires are way to skinny for chaos...

So I was wondering if it is possible that vampires turn to chaos, that would make it a lot easier for me to justify. A rogue count that allied to a powerful lord, painting him with some chaos stars tattooed on his wing/chest might do the trick, still would like to know if there is any restriction, again fluffwise.

Theoretically it is possable, although Vampires are egotistical in the extreme. It would be a very embarressing secret for a Vampire to rely on another greater power.

A Stragoi Goul King might be willing to stoop to such a level in their bid for revenge, but it is unlikely a regular old Carstein flavor vamp would do so.

Vampires cut off their soul's connection to the warp to become Vampires, that's why they have to drink blood to nourish their souls. They're incapable of giving sustenance to the Chaos Gods and their souls won't join their god when they die.

Nitros14 wrote:Vampires cut off their soul's connection to the warp to become Vampires, that's why they have to drink blood to nourish their souls. They're incapable of giving sustenance to the Chaos Gods and their souls won't join their god when they die.

Ohhh didnt know that... mmm and being egocentric i guess they wouldn't accept orders from a mortal... so... any ideas why a vampire could join an army of chaos? haha

I'm pretty sure there's a story somewhere about a Vampire Count pledging his/herself to Tzeentch.

A Vampire could have been a mortal champion in life, only to be turned into a vampire.

I still could easily see the Vampire fighting over control of the warband. He doesn't WORSHIP chaos, instead uses it as a tool.

The Chaos Champion TURNED into a Vampire, as Cryonicleech said, is a good thought. Doomed to never gain his gods benefits, he seeks to use his powers to gain control of the warband, and perhaps sabotage the gods he once worshiped.

I could see Slaneesh taking interest in a very vain vampire and while not being his patron i am sure he would help in his own way.

Again, there's 2 types of Chaos, really.

-There's I Worship Chaos, Chaos Rewards Me. That's like Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes, Chaos Sorcerers, etc.
-There's, oops, I have 3 heads. That's like Ogres or anyone else who gets mutated but doesn't care about the ruinous powers at all. That's just raw chaos magic changing you. The gods themselves may not care or control it at all.

There's that big water spout of chaos in the north. If you stand near it you get wet. But the river it comes from on the other side doesn't know or care.

To be protected from the both I think you need something. Like Lizardmen. It just might be that undead simply don't have anything [soulish] enough to mutate. I mean Tomb Kings you can't really see being mutated. Like a 3 armed skeleton with a crab claw... But then again, they can warp the landscape itself. Like trees.

I also don't think you require a soul to worship Chaos. It's not heaven/hell. They want you to do works on their behalf because it makes them more powerful. But it's a good question, does an avalanche falling that kills 1000 people in a village make Khorne stronger or does it have to be people who set it in motion malevolently? And then say rocks for the rock god or something.

hrmmmm

"Khorne cares not from where the blood flows from, only that it flows"



I could see a Vampire making a bargain with the ruinous powers, or a greater daemon, but it would certaintly involve backstabbing in the end.

Then we might have the issue that a Vampire doesn't have much to offer the Gods. He can only give physical acts. His soul is untouchable by Chaos.

So in a sense Vampires are "safe" from Chaos, but they can still be killed.


Maybe we have a Vampire that gets forced into a deal just for survival. Some Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince is forcing a Vamp to do his bidding in exchange for the Chaos Lord/DP not killing the Vampire(ending his existance)

The Chaos Lord/DP have the possability of death not being the end. The DP just reforms in the warp, the Lord will likely become a DP with the same results. The Vampire only has his physical existance. He won't die naturally, but the DP/future DP can just keep hounding him for eternity. So the Vamp is trapped in a bad bargain he's trying to escape somehow.

I know that no one can see me rubbing my fingers together as I was reading the fluff need for a vampire to join Chaos Warriors but the answer that seems to be missed or avoided is that the vampire WANTS, not needs, the amenities and symbols of power and station that they had or strived to have in life. Vampires, being creatures of chaos could most likely be convinced to join an army of WoC for their own material gain.

How better for a member of a hunted line to protect itself and rebuild wealth and prestige than to become a sorcerer for higher in the armies of chaos.

It's pretty simple, methinks.
A Vampire will not worship Chaos. He thinks too highly of himself.
He will however ally to Chaos when there's benefit go be found.

In a short story in the Legends anthology that recently came out there was a vamp mocking WoC reliance on the gods saying "I am already immortal and above men there is nothing the gods can offer me that I dont already have." The story was the 9th book. I would say possible but very unlikely since all vampires in most the fluff Ive read belief they themselves are walking gods.

The CF wrote:It's pretty simple, methinks.
A Vampire will not worship Chaos. He thinks too highly of himself.
He will however ally to Chaos when there's benefit go be found.

And there is the answer to this thread.

The CF wrote:It's pretty simple, methinks.
A Vampire will not worship Chaos. He thinks too highly of himself.
He will however ally to Chaos when there's benefit go be found.

What if he wants more power?

rockerbikie wrote:

The CF wrote:It's pretty simple, methinks.
A Vampire will not worship Chaos. He thinks too highly of himself.
He will however ally to Chaos when there's benefit go be found.

What if he wants more power?

What do you mean?
"ally" doesn't mean he'll take orders from whomever. It's more likely he's doing it for promises of mythical artefacts or equivalent.
And that doesn't exclude that he's probably scheming on betraying them, or taking over the warband, or killing them all and raise them as his personal undead legion.
By 'ally' I meant 'fight on their side'. Not 'take orders from the petty warlord'.
If that makes any sense.

Vampires might indeed have a lot of power, but Daemons go to 11.

Nagash is dirt under Grandfather Nurgle's rotten toenail. Acharon is just a dude they decided to make spiffy. But he's still nothing.

They can ally of course. The BRB says so.

There's a few blurbs in the Dragon Ogre section where they work with the ruinous powers because they are trying to make the world like it was before all the other races came. But they say don't confuse us working together with serving them. And they are part of the WoC book.

Just a thought, but could you not just use him as a sorcerer of chaos, tainted by the fickle hand of mutation...? Perhaps in mockery of the undead lords...? Slaanesh at least wouldenjoy the joke, although GW would probably moan about the lost revenue.

As long as your opponent is happy, then job done

Speed10wing wrote:Just a thought, but could you not just use him as a sorcerer of chaos, tainted by the fickle hand of mutation...? Perhaps in mockery of the undead lords...? Slaanesh at least wouldenjoy the joke, although GW would probably moan about the lost revenue.

As long as your opponent is happy, then job done

Yeah, i also though of maybe sculping some feathers on his wing and make it more tzeentchy, and the it's just a mutation also crossed my mind. I've been a long player at my LGS and there aren't many on Mexico so I'm pretty sure as long as a I tell them this vampire is a sorcerer there shouldn't be a problem, just wanted to get a little more deep into the fluff for campaigns and stuff like that.

I like the idea of a count exiled from Sylvannia (sp?) joining my lord's warband in order to regain power and revive the corpses of the warbands enemies (or the same warband), who knows maybe in a few months/years when my debts are paid and i got some extra cash i could just buy another sorc and start a VC army and keep the fluff on how my count amassed his army, hell that even would help me to justify the use of Krell's (as himself or as a wight) having a background history related to chaos warriors.

Edit: Damn that Krell model is just awesome!

I think you would be better off just having him be a sorcerer with a mutation than trying to have him as a Vampire allied with the WoC. If you were going to go the "ally" route then it would make more sense to have him in a contingent of undead in a SoB campaign. Thus you have your WoC and the VC contingent working "with" them.

You could use him as a chaos wizard,after all vampires have a lot of time to study magic,just say in you background that it's a vampire and he just follows those warriors because they fight for him in life and soon they'll fight for him in death.

That or you could make him look less like a vampire,a chaos helmet or feathery wings would do the trick.

I believe every chaos sorcerer CHOOSES to become a chaos sorcerer. You don't accidentally trip over a mutant plant and all of a sudden have vast eldritch knowledge. Spawns and random mutations just happen accidentally by being too far North and such.

But the gods actually have to give some of their own power to create a Chaos Lord/Sorcerer and they aren't going to lend that out to someone who isn't going to absolutely further their specific goals. Which brings us back to whether or not a Vamp is going to ever WORSHIP a specific Ruinous Power.

Think of it another way, ALL those guys, Warriors, Chosen, Chaos Lords, Chaos Sorcerers, have an ultimate goal of becoming a Daemon Prince. That's the jackpot. That's as good as it gets in Chaos-Land. To a vampire, that transformation frankly isn't all that spiffy. They would actually give up a tremendous amount of their freedom for not a big boost in power.

So no, I can't ever really see that. Accidental mutation, like a warped hand/arm? Who knows? That's raw chaos magic bending reality itself--Nagaash's jungle juice can't protect from that. But I just can't see vamps ever getting out their prayer rugs and chanting for the slight chance of being "elevated" in the eyes of a Chaos God. Who even if they were made a DP, would suddenly become lowbies compared to true Greater Daemon Lords.

Why not think of the wing as a mutation?

I mean they mutate everyonelse so why not?

I'm pretty sure if a vampire wanted to take over a chaos lords army he would get beat down real quick. He may be a vampire but honestly not much is going to survive an angry lord.

A set of wings could certainly be a mutation. Again, that's just THE WARPE doing it's wacky stuff. No one really wants an extra eyeball on their hand. Makes wiping your butt a really gross experience.

cowpow16 wrote:Why not think of the wing as a mutation?

I mean they mutate everyonelse so why not?

I'm pretty sure if a vampire wanted to take over a chaos lords army he would get beat down real quick. He may be a vampire but honestly not much is going to survive an angry lord.

Ninth Book short story has vampire kill chaos lord and declare no vampire would need chaos for he was already immortal. "What more could chaos give him?" Those were the vampires words. Vampires are egotistical and already as powerful as a chaos lord. There is nothing to tempt them with.

How about being able to summon demons that could crush you like a grape, if left unchecked? I hate absolutes where "no vampire would ally with Chaos and that's it". Very limiting and unimaginative. If someone wants to have a vampire turn to chaos, then by all means go ahead. I'm sure that you can come up with a plausible situation where that can happen. Not all vampires are uberpowerful beings. Some vampires are more powerful than others, correct? What if a "lesser" vampire wants to get power quickly and makes a pact with Chaos to get it? I'm sure there's a situation that would be beneficial to both parties.

What can a Vampire offer Chaos? They can't offer their soul and that's really all the Chaos Gods want.

Redeemer31 wrote:How about being able to summon demons that could crush you like a grape, if left unchecked? I hate absolutes where "no vampire would ally with Chaos and that's it". Very limiting and unimaginative. If someone wants to have a vampire turn to chaos, then by all means go ahead. I'm sure that you can come up with a plausible situation where that can happen. Not all vampires are uberpowerful beings. Some vampires are more powerful than others, correct? What if a "lesser" vampire wants to get power quickly and makes a pact with Chaos to get it? I'm sure there's a situation that would be beneficial to both parties.

Thatd be part of the issue.. Daemons have atttudes and not reliable like zombies, skeletons etc. Plus with their affinity for summoning the dead that in always loyal they have no need for daemons. Allies? Maybe.. Servants? Not likely. Of course if someone wanted to write fluff for their army sure. Your army do what ya want. In the mainline? Porbably won't happen.

People don't really summon daemons too. They have to break through. It's not as D&Dish in that regards. Tearing holes in reality isn't easy.

And again, a Daemon Prince is the highest thing that can be offered, not a CL. A CL is just a dude. Even a tough one. He'll die one day. If someone shoved pepper up his nose he would sneeze. A DP is a mini-god. He can never be killed. That's a huge difference than immortal. You can kill a DP a thousand times and it makes no difference. A vampire can just get really old. But he's still a kitten compared to infinite. When the sun dies 12 billion years from now, a DP will be off playing with his pals, still engaged in The Great Game.

Where does it say in the fuff vamp auto-forfeit their soul when they receive the Blood-Kiss?
Either way, the Ruinous Powers could have a lot to offer a vamp:
If the vamp does forfeit his should upon undeath, he could still want a soul, and the Chaos Gods could provide one.
What vamp wouldn't want demonhood? Then they would be truly immortal, and eternal.
Power; all vamps want it, Chaos has plenty to pass out to it's champs.
A vamp could fall into the clutches of Khorne due to the Hunger, or Tzeentch during a magical bid for power.
Chaos corrupts not only the soul, but the mind too. A vamp who reads from one of the Liber Chaotica or Liber Malefic books could find himself in thrall to Chaos.
Good old demonic possession. If the vamp has no soul, then that's just free space to a demon to inhabit.
Look at Malus Darkblade; his soul was straight up replaced by a demon. Think the same couldn't happen to a vamp?

Plus using magic in WHFB has nothing to do with having a soul or not.
Plenty of Chaos champs have sold off their soul, and still use magic.
Demons have no soul, and use magic too.
If vamps have no soul, then they wouldn't be sorcerers at all if a soul was required to use magic.

At the end of the day, it’s your army. Put a Chaos Star on that bad boy, and call it good.
If anyone asks about it, just tell them “Chaos Corrupts”, and be done with it.

cricketofdeth wrote:Where does it say in the fuff vamp auto-forfeit their soul when they receive the Blood-Kiss?
Either way, the Ruinous Powers could have a lot to offer a vamp:
If the vamp does forfeit his should upon undeath, he could still want a soul, and the Chaos Gods could provide one.
What vamp wouldn't want demonhood? Then they would be truly immortal, and eternal.
Power; all vamps want it, Chaos has plenty to pass out to it's champs.
A vamp could fall into the clutches of Khorne due to the Hunger, or Tzeentch during a magical bid for power.
Chaos corrupts not only the soul, but the mind too. A vamp who reads from one of the Liber Chaotica or Liber Malefic books could find himself in thrall to Chaos.
Good old demonic possession. If the vamp has no soul, then that's just free space to a demon to inhabit.
Look at Malus Darkblade; his soul was straight up replaced by a demon. Think the same couldn't happen to a vamp?

Plus using magic in WHFB has nothing to do with having a soul or not.
Plenty of Chaos champs have sold off their soul, and still use magic.
Demons have no soul, and use magic too.
If vamps have no soul, then they wouldn't be sorcerers at all if a soul was required to use magic.

At the end of the day, it’s your army. Put a Chaos Star on that bad boy, and call it good.
If anyone asks about it, just tell them “Chaos Corrupts”, and be done with it.

Then where in the fluff is a chaos fallen vampire?(again has nothin to do with the OP armies. His army his choice but my question to cricket.) Apparently either chaos hasnt tried hard enough or is equally as disinterested in a lone immortal who they cant have his soul till he dies and well doesnt seem hell die anytime soon.