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I tried searching for this but only found a few posts that touched on the subject a little but found no answer. With the faq ruling that Stormlord can reroll night fighting with a Cryptek in his unit what does the Necron army lose if Stormlord dies? I'm pretty sure the lightning would stop but what about night fighting? I seen several post that said night fight was comparable to Vulkan's (or most other examples) combat tactics, meaning it stays even if Stormlord dies. With the new faq giving him ownership of the night fight rules it has confused me a little. Thanks for any help.

Loses the lightning and nightfighting

Since GW made the storm part of the Lord (the ONLY way you can reroll the dice via a chronometron) you lose absolutely everything associated with him while he is dead, off the board, etc.

It'd go away, just like the lightning would. Also, if he's in reserve there's no lightning or night fighting.

rigeld2 wrote:Also, if he's in reserve there's no lightning or night fighting.

The wording for Lord of the Storm says that Night Fight applies automatically first turn if Imotekh is included in your list. I know the FAQ has mucked things up quite a bit, but it seems like it should still work with Imo in reserve...

rigeld2 wrote:It'd go away, just like the lightning would. Also, if he's in reserve there's no lightning or night fighting.

And this is wrong. The codex states that he must simply be in your army, not deployed in order for it to be in effect. You can't reroll anything with him not on the board because you need the chronometron's power for that, but there is absolutely no rules backing for it not working if he's in reserve.

WanderingFox wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It'd go away, just like the lightning would. Also, if he's in reserve there's no lightning or night fighting.

And this is wrong. The codex states that he must simply be in your army, not deployed in order for it to be in effect. You can't reroll anything with him not on the board because you need the chronometron's power for that, but there is absolutely no rules backing for it not working if he's in reserve.

Fair enough. Such a horrible FAQ answer... if the ability isn't linked to him, how is he re-rolling it? sigh...

what about if he dies? I'm thinking it doesn't go away immediately, but no more rolls to keep it going.

WanderingFox wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It'd go away, just like the lightning would. Also, if he's in reserve there's no lightning or night fighting.

And this is wrong. The codex states that he must simply be in your army, not deployed in order for it to be in effect. You can't reroll anything with him not on the board because you need the chronometron's power for that, but there is absolutely no rules backing for it not working if he's in reserve.

Yet "He" is the one performing the roll, because that is the ONLY way that the reroll from the chronometron can work

So can his rule work while off table? The High King rule had to be FAQ'd to work, so does this.

"If the army contains" directly contradicts that statement. His power is always in effect t1, even if he is not on the board. His power also states to roll at the start of each of your shooting phases. No where does it state that he must be on the board to do this. That said, the chonometron power only functions while the cryptek is in play, and as such can only be used if Immotekh is also in play.

The FAQ does not deny anything. You're simply assuming things. All the FAQ did was clarify a very specific situation.

All the FAQ did was change the rules such thaty an army wide power was no longer an army wide power.

No. All it did was clarify that chornometron can be used on it. That doesn't change anything else. You're assuming.

I point your attention to the fact that the FAQ entry is in regards to the chronometron, and NOT immotekh. It changes NOTHING about how immotekh functions. It merely clarifies that if Immotekh is in a unit with a crhonometron, you may use the power to reroll the nightfighting check. That's ALL it does.

It is not errata, it did NOT change any wording. It simply clarified a very specific situation.

...which it can only do IFF the Lord is making the roll, and not the army. Meaning it went from being army wide (noone specifically makign the roll) to character based, as that is the only way the chronometron is allowed to give you the reroll.

Also: forget about the distinction between FAQ and errata. It was NEVER true that FAQs didnt alter rules, and after the Tyranid FAQ volte face on SitW, this is even more clear. Errata or FAQ is irrelevant distinction - GW will happily alter the rules

Is it possible that the nightfighting on turn 1 is an army rule and happens regardless of the presence or absence of immotekh

AND

the 'keep the night fighting going' is an ability of Imotekh, thus requiring him to be on the board (and with the chronometron unit to use it)?

foolishmortal wrote:Is it possible that the nightfighting on turn 1 is an army rule and happens regardless of the presence or absence of immotekh

AND

the 'keep the night fighting going' is an ability of Imotekh, thus requiring him to be on the board (and with the chronometron unit to use it)?

This is how I assume it's supposed to work now. Not that any interpretation seems to have firm footing post-FAQ... What a stupid ruling.

Entirely so.

Previously it was VERY clearly army wide - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Entirely so.

Previously it was VERY clearly army wide - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

No, it wasn't. I believe I pointed this out to you very succinctly at the time, as well. here, let me fix that for you:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Previously it was VERY clearly army wide I insisted upon comparing it to actual army-wide rules for no apparent reason other than the fact that I assumed everything in 40k was a variation of Combat Tactics - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

Is it night-fighting first turn? Yes. This is an effect of having Imotekh in your army. This first-turn element is the only army-wide element to the Lord of the Storm ability. The rest belongs to Imotekh alone.
Can Imotekh re-roll night fighting? yes. This is Imotekh's ability to activate at his discretion.
Can Imotekh do this from reserve? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities while in reserve.
Can Imotekh re-roll for night-fighting when he's dead? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities when they are dead.
Can Imotekh strike with lightning from reserve? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities while in reserve.
Can Imotekh strike with lghtning when he's dead? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities when they are dead.

It's really not that hard...

It wasnt my opinion - find where it stated the Stormlord rolled the dice, like, for example, Warp Time where it specifies who rerolls the dice.

It WAS an army wide rule. It isnt anymore

azazel the cat wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Entirely so.

Previously it was VERY clearly army wide - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

No, it wasn't. I believe I pointed this out to you very succinctly at the time, as well. here, let me fix that for you:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Previously it was VERY clearly army wide I insisted upon comparing it to actual army-wide rules for no apparent reason other than the fact that I assumed everything in 40k was a variation of Combat Tactics - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

<moderation note: this is an inappropriate means to further your point, in that it only invites off-topic reprisals. If you can't discuss civilly, you don't need to discuss at all.>

I don't know what version of Immotekh's rules you're reading, but you're making assumptions.

Lord of the storm is a SINGLE power. It's not multiple things.

In specific, it includes the following text:

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the Night Fighting rules automatically apply during the first game turn. FURTHERMORE, you can attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a D6..."

No where does it state that Imotekh must be on the field for this to be active.

Also, the FAQ states, and I quote: "If an army contains Imotekh the Stormlord can a Cryptek with a chronometron use it to re-roll the roll to see if the Night Fighting special rules stay in effect?"

The answer to this is "Only if Imotekh is in the same unit as the Cryptek with the chronometron"

NOWHERE does this FAQ entry change ANYTHING having to do with Immotekh. It simply adds clarification.

Ergo, Imotekh's power is army wide as clearly stated in his rules in the codex. However, if he is in a unit containing a cryptek with a chronometron that power may be used to allow him to reroll the check.

Now, the chronometron is not army-wide, nor is it a special rule (rather it is a piece of wargear), and as such cannot be used unless it is on the table.

Therefore, the logical reading of the rules is as such:

Turn 1 Night Fighting is in place regardless of if he is on the board or not.
You may roll to continue Night Fighting regardless of if he is on the board or not.
You may NOT re-roll the Night Fighting check unless he is deployed in a unit with a Cryptek w/ Chronometron.

Until you can prove, with rules, where Imotekh's power was changed, you're wrong.

Because you can use a Chronometron to re-roll Imotekh's ability, it must belong to Imotekh. Otherwise the caveat that the Cryptek must be in Imotekh's unit would be pointless.

If the ability belongs to Imotekh, then he cannot use it while he is in reserve, because abilities cannot be triggered while the activating model is in reserve.

WanderingFox wrote:"If your army includesNo where does it state that Imotekh must be on the field for this to be active.

I think that the FAQ only answered half of the the Imotekh/Cronomotron question.

The real conundrum occurs when the chance to roll for it to continue starts on Turn 2. Yes, the Storm happens Turn 1 whether he is on the table or not. Yes, Imotekh can re-roll the result if he is on the board in a unit with a Cryptek with a Chronomotron. But if he can RE-roll it, doesn't that mean he has to be on the table to roll for it in the first place?

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:"If your army includesNo where does it state that Imotekh must be on the field for this to be active.

I think that the FAQ only answered half of the the Imotekh/Cronomotron question.

The real conundrum occurs when the chance to roll for it to continue starts on Turn 2. Yes, the Storm happens Turn 1 whether he is on the table or not. Yes, Imotekh can re-roll the result if he is on the board in a unit with a Cryptek with a Chronomotron. But if he can RE-roll it, doesn't that mean he has to be on the table to roll for it in the first place?

Exactly my point.

I want to agree with Wandering Fox, but the FAQ also has this little Gem:

Q: Must Imotekh the Stormlord roll to see if Night
Fighting continues at the start of the game turn? (p55)
A: No, he can attempt it but isn’t forced to.

Apparently Imhotek IS the one rolling for the Lord of the Storm rule. Regardless, I do agree that the rule confers NF on turn 1 though.

I cringe every time I see someone name a GW employee and make a blanket slur, so I will try to be very specific here. I think a large part of the problem is that game writers (being human) occasionally blur the distinction between I (the player) and I (the model) and write ambiguous text. We have 2 faq entries that clear up most of the procedural questions here. Trying to make sense of the original rule in terms of the implications of the new language may be a lost cause.

It went from an army wide ability (YOU can roll....) to a specific model ability (Imotekh can roll)

Army wide abilities use the "you" when activated; specific model abilities state the model, e.g. Njal, High King, Warp Time, et al.

I see it more as the faq clarified a portion of the ability (the furthermore, keep it going, portion) I do not believe the faq changed the nature of how, when or if the nightfighting starts.

I would say (RAW) that the night fighting starts turn 1 if Imotekh is in your army (on or off the field)
I would say that the Imotekh on the field at the start of a game turn gives you the option of choosing to try and keep it going. (per the faq)
I would say (RAW) killing Imotekh does not remove nightfighting, but does prevent further rolls to keep it going.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It went from an army wide ability (YOU can roll....) to a specific model ability (Imotekh can roll)

Army wide abilities use the "you" when activated; specific model abilities state the model, e.g. Njal, High King, Warp Time, et al.

Please find me a single instance in the BGB that says anyone other than the player, or "you" that rolls dice.

We've been through this before: the Space Marine shoots a gun; I roll the dice.

Why only the BRB?

Warptime. Specifies that the psyker rolls the dice. Already given this as an example

ARMY wide abilities are really obviously written, as are specific abilities.

I don't think army ability vs model ability is as clearly delineated as we might want it to be. In a quick search of the faqs I came up several instances GW transposed the player rolls with model rolls

edit : some examples

Q: If a unit has a special rule that lets it re-roll failed
saves and is being affected by an enemy special rule
that makes them re-roll successful saves how is this
resolved? (p25)
A: Whilst you should technically roll all the dice and
then re-roll them, just roll the saves once and apply the
results to save time.

Q: Do you roll to see if a hit with the Entropic Strike
special rule reduces a vehicle’s armour before rolling for
armour penetration? As all attacks at the same Initiative
are simultaneous, does this mean that other models
with the same Initiative will also roll to penetrate
against the reduced armour value? (p29)
A: Yes to both questions.

Q: Does Warptime allow the psyker to pick and choose
which To Hit and To Wound dice he will re-roll? (p88)
A: No. He can decide after each To Hit or To Wound roll
but he must re-roll all dice or no dice.

The issue results in the fact that this is a FAQ not errata. It cannot, by definition, change wording; it can only clarify.

It does this in the sense that it clarifies the case of Imotekh in a unit with a chrono being able to reroll. It makes no other statement, and yes while it might make sense for that to then imply he must be on the board to roll in the first place, that is not what the faq says.

This is a case of implies (logical) vs if and only if (logical). In this case it is implies. That is to say it only gives permission if the anticedent is true. It makes no claims at all if it is false, therefore nothing has changed from the original wording.


For the record I agree he probably should have to be on the board, but the rules don't support it (what happens if he doesn't come in till turn 3? The way his power is phrased, you would not get anything after 1 turn of night fight as he was unable to roll for it on turn 2).