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The "shot" isnt coming from 12"+ away, so nope, they dont work

Dok wrote:Question about Imotekhs Lightning. Are you allowed cover saves against it since they are originating from him? Or are they considered some weird sort of shooting attack that comes from nothing?

I believe the FAQ stated you can get cover saves from it. Which sucks, but whatever. We were playing it where you didn't get saves from it before but I guess that'll have to change too.

*Edit*
Well, I can't find it now. Odd. Maybe I just read it on here then...

No, it was never in the FAQ.

Each part of the Lord of Storm ability has it's own conditions according to the Necron Codex.

Prerequisite: "If your army includes Imotekh"
Result: Night Fighting rules on the first turn.

Prerequisite: (implied Night Fighting rules were in play last turn) "
Result: YOU can keep Night Fighting rules in play by rolling.

Prerequisite: "While Night Fighting rules remained in play..." (Imotekh is NOT required for lightning)
Result: (for each enemy unit) "...on a roll of a 6, that unit is struck by lightning"

So if Imotekh is in your army, Night Fighting and lightning continue each turn independently of Imotekh.

If you go first on the first turn and Imotekh dies from dangerous terrain, on your opponents turn you still roll for lightning and on game turn 2+ you still keep rolling to keep Night Fighting in effect and if it is in effect must roll for lightning.

The FAQ only clarifies that in order to reroll the roll to keep night fighting in play the cryptek with the chrono must be in Imotekhs unit. When the FAQ says "his roll" and "he rolls" it may imply Imotekh is the model rolling, but it does not change the condition granting that roll which is "Your army included Imotekh."

Additionally you cannot get a cover save from the lightning - it is not shot from Imotekh but is a battlefield condition set by "Night Fighting rules remained in play"

Except that ignores that the chrono rules only work if it is Imo making the roll - not the army

If he is not alive, or on the board, he cannot roll.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that ignores that the chrono rules only work if it is Imo making the roll - not the army

If he is not alive, or on the board, he cannot roll.

I don't see any proof of this statement.

No, if Imotekh is not on alive or on the board, he is not in the same unit as the cryptek. That is why you can't get the reroll, not because Imotekh isn't on the board.

The prerequisite for using a CHrono is ether the cryptek OR A MODEL IN THE UNIT is the one rolling

Meaning Imo MUST be the one rolling.

Meaning if he is off the board / dead / etc he cannot rollm unless you can find specific permission?

nosferatu1001 wrote:The prerequisite for using a CHrono is ether the cryptek OR A MODEL IN THE UNIT is the one rolling

Meaning Imo MUST be the one rolling.

Meaning if he is off the board / dead / etc he cannot rollm unless you can find specific permission?

The only requirement which the FAQ clarifies is for the chrono and that the cryptek can grant a reroll if it is in the same unit as Imotekh.

The specific permission is in the rule setting the requirement to roll: "If your army includes Imotekh" and Night Fighting is still in play, you can roll.

Thus "clarifying" who makes the roll. Imotekh. Or are you saying that they have now changed the Chrono rule so any roll can be rerolled? That's the other option here.

Again: you are missing what specific means. Specific would be "even if Imotekh is dead / off the table you may roll", as the FAQ has changed the rules regarding Imotekh

nosferatu1001 wrote:Thus "clarifying" who makes the roll. Imotekh. Or are you saying that they have now changed the Chrono rule so any roll can be rerolled? That's the other option here.

Again: you are missing what specific means. Specific would be "even if Imotekh is dead / off the table you may roll", as the FAQ has changed the rules regarding Imotekh

Specifically: "If your army includes Imotekh..." and "Furthermore, you can attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling...".

Now show me specifically where this permission is revoked.

In the rules for a chronometron, where the only way you can reroll a dice is if Imotekh is rolling it.

Show permission for Imotekh to roll WHILE OFF THE TABLE. Note that "if your army includes..." does not constitute permission.

If you disagree, i'm going to shoot you while in reserves - is that ok?

nosferatu1001 wrote:In the rules for a chronometron, where the only way you can reroll a dice is if Imotekh is rolling it.

Show permission for Imotekh to roll WHILE OFF THE TABLE. Note that "if your army includes..." does not constitute permission.

If you disagree, i'm going to shoot you while in reserves - is that ok?

You can infer and guess what is implied by the FAQ all you want. This does not change the RAW.

Imotekhs Lord of Storm special rule is activated if Imotekh is included in your army. "Furthermore" means in addition to Night Fighting rules being in play you can keep them in play by rolling - if Imotekh has been included in your army.

In order to remove or take away this ability, you must have a rule that specifically states a condition that stops Lord of the Storm. Inferring, and guessing are not part of this discussion per the YMDC guidelines.

Your reasoning is the same as not allowing the ability to effect the game first turn if Imotekh is off the board. The entire special rule, which is granted by Imotekh only requires him to be included in the army.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Thus "clarifying" who makes the roll. Imotekh. Or are you saying that they have now changed the Chrono rule so any roll can be rerolled? That's the other option here.

Again: you are missing what specific means. Specific would be "even if Imotekh is dead / off the table you may roll", as the FAQ has changed the rules regarding Imotekh

Actually, nos, there's a third option that you aren't considering.

That would be "The Chronometron can reroll dice rolled by models in the unit, and also the Night-Fighting roll in an army containing Imotekh, if Imotekh is in the unit"

That seems like the most RAW reading to me; it modifies exactly one rule in such a way that everything works, and changes nothing else. It's the smallest change required to reconcile the wording in the various rules and rulings. The FAQ has changed the rules regarding the Chronometron, not Imotekh.

Ok, so forgetting all the round-table arguments going back and forth, there is another entry in the FAQ about Imotekh's ability that states that "he can elect to not roll", and by that FAQ entry it does imply that it is him making the roll. Though I think this is just an oversight in GW wording, unfortunately until it is officially FAQ'd it is something that will have to be decided on before-hand or ruled on by a TO. Suffice to say there is plenty of evidence for BOTH sides of this discussion to be right. If it really came down to it though I would rule on the side of the path of least resistance, requiring Imotekh to be on the board. But since I'm a necron player I'd certainly make my case for why it "should" work with him in reserve.

I agree with Kevin.

Both sides have an argument. I can only hope that the house rules at my local venues go my way.

Nemesor - yet the FAQ also states that HE makes the roll

No inferring required, RAW all the way

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it was never in the FAQ.

I know what I was thinking of now, terror from the deep allows cover saves and that was another FAQ I was looking at and for some reason I confused them. Don't ask me how.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nemesor - yet the FAQ also states that HE makes the roll

No inferring required, RAW all the way

It really doesn't matter as the Lord of Storm states the specific conditions to continue it and to shoot the lighting.

Imotekh was included in your army = Night Fighting. Night Fighting = roll to continue it. Night Fighting? Lightning.

We're not looking for secret hidden messages here.

Theyre not secret or hidden - the FAQ changes the rules. They often do this with FAQs

nosferatu1001 wrote:Theyre not secret or hidden - the FAQ changes the rules. They often do this with FAQs

Show me where the FAQ says anything about changing the way Night Fight is rolled to keep it going. The FAQ says nothing about conditions for him rolling, only the Codex does. It has always been "his roll", "his lighting" and "his special rule". This changes nothing about how the rule is played. That is explained in the codex.

So, again - if it is HIS roll please show where it says it can be rolled while OFF THE TABLE

Or, again - I'm going to shoot you while off the table.

Edit: perviously it wasnt HIS roll - as nothing in the codex indicated it was. It was his special rule, but not HIS roll to keep it going. This was really clear and unambiguos

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, again - if it is HIS roll please show where it says it can be rolled while OFF THE TABLE

Or, again - I'm going to shoot you while off the table.

Edit: perviously it wasnt HIS roll - as nothing in the codex indicated it was. It was his special rule, but not HIS roll to keep it going. This was really clear and unambiguos

It was always his special rule, so it was his roll. I have already shown this many times now. Again I QUOTE: "If your army includes Imotekh", so it works when he's off the table.

Find where it says IN THE CODEX that HE rolls the dice. It doesnt, it is "you", as in army-you.

Find where it ****SPECIFICALLY**** says it can work while off table. This requires actual wording to the effect. Your quote is meaningless as it is general, not specific.

Again, if you cannot do so then I will start shooting you while in reserve

nosferatu1001 wrote:Find where it says IN THE CODEX that HE rolls the dice. It doesnt, it is "you", as in army-you.

Find where it ****SPECIFICALLY**** says it can work while off table. This requires actual wording to the effect. Your quote is meaningless as it is general, not specific.

Again, if you cannot do so then I will start shooting you while in reserve

This is how it has been played since the codex was released. As a general rule models cannot effect the battle unless they are on the table. The codex specifically overrides this by stating Lord of Storm special rule is in effect "If your army includes Imotekh".

By the way, your responses lack any proof or rules quotes at all. I'm sure myself and others don't know where you're getting your information from.

What, apart from the "you" quote?

RAP not necessarily RAW, btw. Again, in order to work while off table you need to say you can do so - see High King which had to be FAQ'd the turn he arrived.

nosferatu1001 wrote:What, apart from the "you" quote?

RAP not necessarily RAW, btw. Again, in order to work while off table you need to say you can do so - see High King which had to be FAQ'd the turn he arrived.

"If your army includes Imotekh, do X". What does this mean to you?

According to your logic, Lord of Storm does nothing unless Imotekh is on the board, because if he's not, the rule to allow Lord of Storm to work when he's not on the board never gets put in play. What?

Common sense is that if he's included in your army, the entire rule applies until it cancels itself or is specifically canceled by another rule.

Ah, so now youre back to common sense? LOL

Sorry, find the *rule* that *specifically* allows it to work while off the board. See Autarch special rule. See High King FAQ. You need something similar, otherwise you dont get to use the special rule of someone where HE rolls when HE is dead, or off the table

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, so now youre back to common sense? LOL

Sorry, find the *rule* that *specifically* allows it to work while off the board. See Autarch special rule. See High King FAQ. You need something similar, otherwise you dont get to use the special rule of someone where HE rolls when HE is dead, or off the table

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the Night Fighting rules automatically apply during the first game turn."

This means he doesn't need to be on the board. Do you disagree?

Ah, apparently you havent read and understood my argument yet.

Look back a bit, see what I'm arguing and what you have missed by a mile, and come back.

Also - does that specify, as in actually STATES, that it works off the table? If so, please show the language that even talks about off the table.

Read Autarch rules. Read High King rule and FAQ. Have the slightest clue what you are attempting to argue.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, apparently you havent read and understood my argument yet.

Look back a bit, see what I'm arguing and what you have missed by a mile, and come back.

Also - does that specify, as in actually STATES, that it works off the table? If so, please show the language that even talks about off the table.

Read Autarch rules. Read High King rule and FAQ. Have the slightest clue what you are attempting to argue.

So you are saying Night Fighting only effects the first turn if Imotekh is on the table? Or it works if he's not on the table?