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So let me see if I have this straight. The current thinking is

A) Night fighting turn 1 is an army wide rule triggered by Imotekh's inclusion on the list. His continued presence on the board is not a requirement. (Killing him brings no light)
B) The lightning at the start of the shooting phase is an Imotekh activated ability - requires his presence on the board to do.
C) The keep the night fighting going is an Imotekh activated ability - requires his presence on the board to attempt.

I have been playing A and C, but previously I had been playing B as part of the night fighting, not requiring Imotekh's presence.

I will have to grab my codex and check the language.

Ghaz wrote:Because it requires Imotekh to be in the unit with the Chronometron exactly as the rules in the codex state. If it were a change to the Chronometron then the FAQ wouldn't require Imotekh to be in the unit.

Well no it would be like having a special effect that only helps certain units. E.G. Liturgies of blood on BA chaplain has a rule the effects more or less everyone and then a special additional part for death company, that doesn't mean liturgies of blood is a death company rule. In this case the models that meet the criteria for the extra part happens to be limited to one unique model unless 2 necron players are playing on a team with 2 imos.

Not saying this is how it is but seeing as we are drawing interpretation of how the FAQ is trying to change rules I feel it's just as reasonable to see the FAQ intending for it to be interpreted this way especially seeing as it's in the cryptek section of the FAQ.


Here's another way you could read it to I guess "an army the contains imotekh in a squad with a cronometron may reroll the nightfighting ".

Keep in mind that if anything it's the cryptek rolling not imo as the faq says "If and ARMY contains imotekh the stormlord can a cryptek with a cronometron use it to re-roll to see if the nightfighting stays in effect? So really imo can die and you can reroll as long as the cryptek lives. Wait who's power is it if 2 units in the army can control it?

Nebulas1 wrote:
Keep in mind that if anything it's the cryptek rolling not imo as the faq says "If and ARMY contains imotekh the stormlord can a cryptek with a cronometron use it to re-roll to see if the nightfighting stays in effect? So really imo can die and you can reroll as long as the cryptek lives. Wait who's power is it if 2 units in the army can control it?

Good catch on the faq language. It actually solidifies the position of the "keep it going" ability being Imotekh's and not army wide. It's misleading if you don't also read the rule for chronometron. Specifically, "If the bearer is in a unit, this ability can be used to instead re-roll one of the unit's D6 rolls each phase"

Thus we have "If and ARMY contains Imotekh the stormlord, can a cryptek with a cronometron use it [the chronometron] to re-roll to see if the nightfighting [Imotekh's ability] stays in effect?"

Azazel - i am not IGNORING him, capitalised using the board tools, as that would be pointless. Credit me with SOME intelligence. I am however ignoring the poster until they retract their lie - which i guess as they have emoragequit they wont

nosferatu1001 wrote:Azazel - i am not IGNORING him, capitalised using the board tools, as that would be pointless. Credit me with SOME intelligence. I am however ignoring the poster until they retract their lie - which i guess as they have emoragequit they wont

Yeah, sorry. I must have confused your saying you would be ignoring him with you ignoring him. Next time I'll try to figure out the double-secret meaning of your word choice?

Sigh.

You see that button called IGNORE, all in caps? Like a defined term (you're in a rules forum, you should know what that means)? Notice how i am ignoring them, not putting them on "IGNORE"

There is a difference, quite a glaring one. I suggest you have a look over how this forum is constructed before posting furhter.

edit : post removed. I was being snarky. My apologies

foolishmortal wrote:

Nebulas1 wrote:
Keep in mind that if anything it's the cryptek rolling not imo as the faq says "If and ARMY contains imotekh the stormlord can a cryptek with a cronometron use it to re-roll to see if the nightfighting stays in effect? So really imo can die and you can reroll as long as the cryptek lives. Wait who's power is it if 2 units in the army can control it?

Good catch on the faq language. It actually solidifies the position of the "keep it going" ability being Imotekh's and not army wide. It's misleading if you don't also read the rule for chronometron. Specifically, "If the bearer is in a unit, this ability can be used to instead re-roll one of the unit's D6 rolls each phase"

Thus we have "If and ARMY contains Imotekh the stormlord, can a cryptek with a cronometron use it [the chronometron] to re-roll to see if the nightfighting [Imotekh's ability] stays in effect?"

It doesn't really specify it's Imotekhs though if anything it suggests a cryptek can use the cronometron to "mimic" an ability in the form of a reroll.

Nebulas1 wrote:It doesn't really specify it's Imotekhs though if anything it suggests a cryptek can use the cronometron to "mimic" an ability in the form of a reroll.

Elsewhere in the FAQ (and this thread...):
Q: Must Imotekh the Stormlord roll to see if Night
Fighting continues at the start of the game turn? (p55)
A: No, he can attempt it but isn’t forced to.

The wording in the codex does not make it clear at all, but the FAQ spells things out rather explicitly. The roll is Imotekh's. It is reasonable to assume that is why Chronometron works on it...because that is how the Chronometron works.

Janthkin wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:You're not entirely accurate on most of your statements since in the same necron FAQ they allow the veil of darkness to be used from within reserves, and it is a piece of wargear that confers an activated ability.

Also, imotekh's lord of storm ability is not an activated ability because he does not have to use his turn in any way to cause any of it to happen. It does not replace his movement, his shooting, or his assault. Therefore, simply having him in the army allows for this ability to "always" be active until the roll is failed. The chronometron, while similar in use, is different because it is a piece of wargear that can be destroyed when the cryptek is removed from play (or not in play). Imotekh's ability simply happens because he was/is part of the army. His presence on the board is not necessary for its use.

Here's the problem: the Chronometron can only be used to reroll a member of the unit's roll. If the Chronometron can be used to reroll the "Lord of Storm" roll, then it must mean that it's not an army-wide roll; it's a roll that Imotekh is making. And that makes it look like an used ability (e.g., casting a "start of turn" psychic power).

I believe there are other units out there that, if included in an army, have the ability to lower the roll required for reserves for instance. Army wide, not an activated skill, and works whether they're on the board or not.

None of those abilities require a special roll to activate, and most of them stop if the model granting them is dead. (About the only ones that come to mind that *don't* are some of the SM characters, who replace Combat Tactics.)

At this stage, I have no clue what GW is intending with Imotekh's rules. For my own use, I will follow the chain of logic I provided above - if Imotekh is in Reserves, then his Lightning will not trigger, and the Storm will end at the start of turn 2 (as he's not on the board to roll for it yet).

Hm...I see what you're getting at but then wouldn't the codex say "if Imotekh is in play" or "If imotekh is on the board" instead of saying "if your army contains"? Even though it does seem that the roll belongs to imotekh, the fact that he is not actively doing anything (in that you don't need to sacrifice part of his turn to do it) would imply, to me, that it's not any kind of...what's the word...special power? Anyway, the fact the codex makes no mention of this rule being negated when he dies should tell you also that it's not constrained to his presence on the field as well (as being dead and being in reserve are similar in game mechanics). It's quite the quandary really, I can see it from both sides but I'm still inclined to say that even from off the board he'd be able to simply because the rule says "if contains" and not "if in play". Also the fact that it's not classified as any kind of psychic power or wargear kind of furthers that point.

Except it HAS to be his roll, otherwise the chronometron could not reroll it.

What I'm getting from this thread is that Imotekh's lightning happens on turn one no matter what, and that he needs to be on the table to continue rolling for it in subsequent turns.

Did I miss anything?

I think that point is still in contention. The Lord of the Storm Ability on p55 necron codex doesn't mention Imotekh in the 2nd paragraph that refers to how the lightning works. It says that "whilst the nightfighting rules remain in play"

Props to GW for using the word whilst.

It seemed like the lightning was just a by-product of the nightfighting, but then the faq said you could use the chronometron to "keep it going" and the whole thing became more open to interpretation.

Yep, it was clearly armybased before hand - no one individual model was rolling the dice. Yes that meant you didnt get a chrono reroll, but it didnt go away if he died, was off the table, etc

The chronometron ruling only works if this is imotekhs roll, because this is the narrowest change to the rules - otherwise you are allowing the chronometron to reroll any D6 anywhere by anyone.

What do you think is the current RAW use of the lightning? Requires or does not require Imotekh on the board?

Yeah, I don't see the Nightfighting as being a separate issue from the Lightning. If there's Night Fighting from Imotekh, there is lightning. To suggest otherwise is just inventing rules for the purpose of sophistry.

In re-reading the rules, the only qualifier on Imotekh's Lord of the Storm ability is having him in your army.

So where does that leave us? By RAW, without inventing rules, it would seem that the Lord of the Storm is active regardless of Imotekh's location from the FAQ ("If your army includes Imotekh"; end of discussion), and that if he's in a unit with a Chronometron and on the table he can re-roll the Night Fighting dice as per the FAQ.

Except if it is "his" roll to continue NF (which it MUST be - otherwise you have altered the Chrono's rules) then he must be on the table - you have no permission to use his rule while off the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except if it is "his" roll to continue NF (which it MUST be - otherwise you have altered the Chrono's rules)

No, you're simply following RAW. You're making this part about "his roll" up. The Codex says one thing, the FAQ says something else. Follow both of those to the letter and you have no issues.

nosferatu1001 wrote:then he must be on the table - you have no permission to use his rule while off the table.

Other than the fact that the only qualifier for Lord of the Storm being active is you including Imotekh in your army, you mean? Other than it saying in black and grayish/white that it happens if you include Imotekh in your army right there in the Codex?

There is no contradiction between this and the Chronometron FAQ. It expands the parameters for extending the Night Fighting rules, but doesn't change the basic game mechanic. To wit: Night Fighting happens if you include Imotekh in your army, page 55 of the Necron Codex. And boom goes the dynamite.

Kevin949 wrote:Hm...I see what you're getting at but then wouldn't the codex say "if Imotekh is in play" or "If imotekh is on the board" instead of saying "if your army contains"? Even though it does seem that the roll belongs to imotekh, the fact that he is not actively doing anything (in that you don't need to sacrifice part of his turn to do it) would imply, to me, that it's not any kind of...what's the word...special power? Anyway, the fact the codex makes no mention of this rule being negated when he dies should tell you also that it's not constrained to his presence on the field as well (as being dead and being in reserve are similar in game mechanics). It's quite the quandary really, I can see it from both sides but I'm still inclined to say that even from off the board he'd be able to simply because the rule says "if contains" and not "if in play". Also the fact that it's not classified as any kind of psychic power or wargear kind of furthers that point.

Plenty of examples of special rules that clearly belong to one model, without requiring that model to actively sacrifice anything (first one off the top of my head - The Swarmlord's ability to give a friendly unit a special rule during the shooting phase has absolutely zero impact on the other things he can do in the Shooting phase).

MR - how are you following RAW, when the chronometron only works when a member of the unit makes the roll?

Or are you ignoring that requirement of the chronometron?

nosferatu1001 wrote:MR - how are you following RAW, when the chronometron only works when a member of the unit makes the roll?

Or are you ignoring that requirement of the chronometron?

It's irrelevant, since you're given explicit permission to do so by the FAQ.

Which isnt supposed to change rules, yes? So the simplest way to look at it is that it "clarifies" the stormlords powers.

It would appear that it had the opposite effect.

And that would be unusual for GW because....?

SitW. BRB FAQ on what constitutes a PSA. Hell, their Lash "clarification" where it is not only a PSA but no longer "auto hits", like it has done since 2007.

Janthkin wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Hm...I see what you're getting at but then wouldn't the codex say "if Imotekh is in play" or "If imotekh is on the board" instead of saying "if your army contains"? Even though it does seem that the roll belongs to imotekh, the fact that he is not actively doing anything (in that you don't need to sacrifice part of his turn to do it) would imply, to me, that it's not any kind of...what's the word...special power? Anyway, the fact the codex makes no mention of this rule being negated when he dies should tell you also that it's not constrained to his presence on the field as well (as being dead and being in reserve are similar in game mechanics). It's quite the quandary really, I can see it from both sides but I'm still inclined to say that even from off the board he'd be able to simply because the rule says "if contains" and not "if in play". Also the fact that it's not classified as any kind of psychic power or wargear kind of furthers that point.

Plenty of examples of special rules that clearly belong to one model, without requiring that model to actively sacrifice anything (first one off the top of my head - The Swarmlord's ability to give a friendly unit a special rule during the shooting phase has absolutely zero impact on the other things he can do in the Shooting phase).

The same could said for zahndreks adaptive tactics as well. It doesn't say you need line of sight to give an ability to one of your guys and its not a roll, so could it be used of board? Keeping in mind it too activates at the start of your turn and during his "anything"phase.

Question about Imotekhs Lightning. Are you allowed cover saves against it since they are originating from him? Or are they considered some weird sort of shooting attack that comes from nothing?

Dok wrote:Question about Imotekhs Lightning. Are you allowed cover saves against it since they are originating from him? Or are they considered some weird sort of shooting attack that comes from nothing?

Only if you are in cover. You are not drawing LoS from Imotekh, as it is part of his board-wide affect. It's not a shooting attack from him, specifically.

@Sasori: Right on, that's kind of what I thought. So a vehivle would never get cover unless it was a skimmer moving flat out, used a cover save psychic power, or had popped smoke.

Or KFF, etc

What about disruption pods?

*runs away*