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3 Land Raiders at 2000 points, 5 at 2500 points.

Which MEQ can do it the best and support it well enough to still be a competitive list over all? What is your opinion? Is it solid or just a gimmic that might win a couple games?

Melta, melta, melta..........I understand this threat and know it well but none-the-less, can it work?

thanks,

Blood angels (Minimal assault squad and drop packs for landraider discount). Its kinda gimmicky, youll probably win a decent amount of games, but you're kinda throwing out a rock and there is going to be that paper to crush you (lance weapons, not just melta) (terrible analogy, sorry)

zcantin wrote:but you're kinda throwing out a rock and there is going to be that paper to crush you (lance weapons, not just melta) (terrible analogy, sorry)

That's a good analogy.

One of the biggest, toughest tanks in the game, strapped with admirable firepower.

Taken down by say a ravager- paper thin armor, one of the lightest vehicles, tore up a rock like it was nothing.

And in return, a riflemen dread with a pair of scissors as his chapter symbol steps onto the field... S7 ain't going to do to a landraider, but there's something our paper fears being cut by

Also, don't expect that list to earn you many friends, lol. Some armies will literally be unable to touch that and turn one is gg.

zcantin wrote:Also, don't expect that list to earn you many friends, lol. Some armies will literally be unable to touch that and turn one is gg.

Yeah, 50% of armies will fold turn one, 50% will laugh and roll the dice.

zcantin wrote:Also, don't expect that list to earn you many friends, lol. Some armies will literally be unable to touch that and turn one is gg.

If you're list is literally unable to touch those landraiders, I think It's a problem with your list, not the landraiders.

And considering how much of a "rock paper scissors" army it is, if anyone gets butthurt by it it's their problem

Jihallah wrote:And considering how much of a "rock paper scissors" army it is, if anyone gets butthurt by it it's their problem

Ha, fair enough

Don't put your LR on any table that has Railguns on it.

That is all.

im2randomghgh wrote:Don't put your LR on any table that has Railguns on it.

That is all.

Another prime example of a piece of paper (figuratively).

zcantin wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Don't put your LR on any table that has Railguns on it.

That is all.

Another prime example of a piece of paper (figuratively).

They'd be scared by snikrot and commando's.

Who can't hurt a landraider...there might be something to this paper scissors rock analogy!

Who can do it best is Black Templar. They take crusaders for + transport capacity, and they can also take blessed hull, which makes them immune to lance weapons. Second to that is probably CSM, who can take posession which outright ignores shaken and stunned results, meaning they get to keep on shooting better than PotMS.

As for in general, their use seems to be in their ability to concentrate your forces. As for the rock-paper-scissors thing, I wouldn't worry about it. Most melta you get to shoot at (or assault ramp assault) before it gets into melta range, which is also true about most other serious threats.

Meanwhile, even IF you hit with a non-melta wepon, and IF you penetrate the armor (and IF there's no cover), you STILL only have a 1/3 chance of destroying it. They're not THAT easy to destroy.

That hammerhead with a railgun may look scary, but that one rail shot destroys the raider on a .05, while a twin-linked lascannon pair destroys the hammerhead on .19. Put another way, two twin-linked lascannons on a land raider are 4 times more likely to destroy a railgun hammerhead.

It's easy to look at weapons designed to take down land raiders in a vacuum and then scoff at them. When you start taking a broader look at things, though (especially when you consider land raiders in the context of an army), that scoffing is often unjustified.

^lawls, dang, you apparently know what youre doing. Very interesting info worth considering.

@ Ailaros. Aside from the fact that pointing out that a 250pt tank kills a 170pt tank most of the time isn't much of a surprise, its not the Hammerhead Railgun you fear so much as the Broadside Railguns. They are cheaper than the Land Raider by a long shot and have a much better chance to kill it than the Raider does in return, per shot the Railgun (on either platform) comes out way in front of a T/L Lascannon every time.

Anyway if you don't mind being limited to only 3 Land Raiders (which is still heaps for 1500-2000pt games) then its definitely worth throwing Grey Knights into this mix. A Librarian with Shrouding means that stopping the Raiders from delivering units is very very hard. You can either deliver Terminators or Assasin Henchmen units and can make up the difference with cheap support and scoring units.

Powerguy wrote:@ Ailaros. Aside from the fact that pointing out that a 250pt tank kills a 170pt tank most of the time isn't much of a surprise, its not the Hammerhead Railgun you fear so much as the Broadside Railguns. They are cheaper than the Land Raider by a long shot and have a much better chance to kill it than the Raider does in return, per shot the Railgun (on either platform) comes out way in front of a T/L Lascannon every time.

Firstly, you're once again ignoring the fact that land raiders come with weapons that both ignore armor saves and cause instant death. Broadsides are still struggling against the armor, while every casualty after the first shield drone or two are crippling to the squad's firepower.

Secondly, you're looking at things way out of context again. Once you take it out of the vacuum of a single unit shooting at a single other unit in ideal circumstances, you see things like that land raider gunning it forward under cover of rhinos and smoke and then assault ramp multicharging that unit of broadsides along with any unit nearby and wiping it clean off the board in a single charge (and then repeating this every turn thereafter). That tau player only has two turns of throwing .05's at land raiders before they're just boned.

Ailaros wrote:you're looking at things way out of context again. Once you take it out of the vacuum of a single unit shooting at a single other unit in ideal circumstances, you see things like that land raider gunning it forward under cover of rhinos and smoke and then assault ramp multicharging that unit of broadsides along with any unit nearby and wiping it clean off the board in a single charge (and then repeating this every turn thereafter).

Ailaros is right here. Taken out a vacuum, lots of LR's can be tough to deal with, unless you take paper- something that can hit the raider in ideal circumstances. Watch out for these things

Jihallah wrote:LR's can be tough to deal with, unless you take paper- something that can hit the raider in ideal circumstances. Watch out for these things

Sure. They're certainly not auto-win units. In order to be successful, there will be some times when you will have to use player skill to make sure your opponents don't get ideal circumstances (as compared to some things, like a leafblower, where you simply don't have to care what the circumstances are). In that regard, they're like ogryn or, well, practically the entire eldar codex.

But the fact that you have some control over your opponent's circumstances means that you can't just look at the best case scenario for someone facing land raiders and assume that it will just always be true, and therefore land raiders are crap.

If you do black templar and you want 3 LR in a 2k game you are shelling out 370 points a pop at the cheapest (for naked 5 man squad and with blessed hull). Also we forgot monstrous kritters, they have some can opening ability.

Ailaros wrote:

Powerguy wrote:@ Ailaros. Aside from the fact that pointing out that a 250pt tank kills a 170pt tank most of the time isn't much of a surprise, its not the Hammerhead Railgun you fear so much as the Broadside Railguns. They are cheaper than the Land Raider by a long shot and have a much better chance to kill it than the Raider does in return, per shot the Railgun (on either platform) comes out way in front of a T/L Lascannon every time.

Firstly, you're once again ignoring the fact that land raiders come with weapons that both ignore armor saves and cause instant death. Broadsides are still struggling against the armor, while every casualty after the first shield drone or two are crippling to the squad's firepower.

Secondly, you're looking at things way out of context again. Once you take it out of the vacuum of a single unit shooting at a single other unit in ideal circumstances, you see things like that land raider gunning it forward under cover of rhinos and smoke and then assault ramp multicharging that unit of broadsides along with any unit nearby and wiping it clean off the board in a single charge (and then repeating this every turn thereafter). That tau player only has two turns of throwing .05's at land raiders before they're just boned.

Each Land Raider kills maybe one Drone per turn thanks to cover (probably 2 hits, 2 wounds but 1 save), less if you are moving forward at full speed (which, lets face it, against Tau you will be, you sure as hell won't win a shooting match). Chances are you have either died or dropped of your infantry by the time you have gotten down to the Suits.
Also where are you getting the .05's from btw, the only numbers I can get close to that are the stats for wrecking(i.e not factoring in explosions which basically halves your damage results)? A single Hammerhead has about a 12% chance of killing a Land Raider per shot, jumping to 17% if you factor in Immobilised as well (which is good enough most of the time). A single Broadside has about a ~2% advantage on top of that and are usually taken in pairs (at least 3-4 is very common, 6 not unheard of). I'm hardly looking at this in a vacuum lol, I'm not factoring Markerlights which means the Railguns really don't care about your cover saves and I'm ignoring the fact that the Broadside will literally be ON my board edge so your not getting them till turn 3 at the earliest. As an infantry based player I know you know how to bubble wrap, and Tau are pretty much masters of it, you would have to eat through multiple units of Kroot, Drones, Devilfish and Piranhas before you hit combat with Broadsides or Crisis Suits. You sure as hell won't be multicharging them. Proper use of Piranhas will completely halt your advance for a turn (I park in front of you, you Ram 1", I dodge, you do nothing and you are stuck there) and if you don't have the support firepower they are going to melta you are well the following turn. If you disembark and charge at any point then I lose a unit and happily shoot up your infantry. No matter how you spin it you are not going to enjoy playing Land Raider lists against a good Tau list, 3-4 rounds of shooting is going to reliably drop 3 Land Raiders even allowing for cover some of the time. I'm not suggesting its an auto win or anything, but Railguns are just as effective as meltaguns at dropping Land Raiders except they can do it from range, its a good matchup for Tau not the other way around.

just2fierce wrote:
3 Land Raiders at 2000 points, 5 at 2500 points.

Which MEQ can do it the best and support it well enough to still be a competitive list over all? What is your opinion? Is it solid or just a gimmic that might win a couple games?

Melta, melta, melta..........I understand this threat and know it well but none-the-less, can it work?

thanks,

So what is the advantage of AV14 spam? It hits non-henchmen GK in the nuts. Given how GK can be 50% of the armies you play in tourneys, that's a lot of sissors out there to your rock.
C:SM has a brick wall of 4 LR, so they need to be right out. BA gives you much more of an option and viable army by adding AV13 spam. This is what I put together that comes out at 1982 points. I'm sure you can play around with this to make it really fit your liking.

Base Army
Librarian
3 Assault squads with 1 MG in a mars pattern LR with pintle MM
1 Assault squad in a redeemer with pintle MM
3 Baal Predators
1 Predator with AC/LC sponsons

Unit Roles
That brings four AV 14 vehicles and 4 AV 13 vehicles to the party. Its enough to make any GK player wet his pants.
The redeemer is there to give you some horde support and to flame any units that get to close. The AC and MM on it are priority. It is also there to take down the MEQ squad that is moving your way after its transport was fried.
The 3 mars patterns are there to lay down 6 TL LC shots a turn, with MM support. Their goal is to shoot down targets that are a danger to your army, such as MM speeders. They are also your objective campers.
The baals predators are your anti-transport vehicles. Scout them to get side shots. An TL AC is highly effective vs AV 11. (~36% of either immobilized or destroyed) On side shots they have an even better chance of success.
The LC predator is there just to add some more LC's to the game. Remember, the goal is to neuter the things that can kill you.

Strategy
The goal of this army is to be a hard nut to crack. Your strategy is to use your MM/LC's to take down anything that can hurt your vehicles. This includes popping chimeras, vendettas, razorspam, etc.
Basically anything with the melta rule, then anything with a LC, then anything with a STR 10 assault hit. Once you have taken down those, sit on your tanks on objectives and pluck off his troops.
Your goal is not to table the other player, but to just be a hard wall to run up against. Don't be overly aggressive. You want to move up slowly and just hold objectives or deny KP.
At range, AV 14 is nearly impossible to stop. Don't go rushing up and remove that advantage. That's why I am only suggesting 1 redeemer.

I have thought of doing this purely for fun games at my flgs and the odd local turny. The list i came up with uses vanilla SM to get 5 LRs and labmouse nailed my strategy on the head.

DarbNilbirts wrote:I have thought of doing this purely for fun games at my flgs and the odd local turny. The list i came up with uses vanilla SM to get 5 LRs and labmouse nailed my strategy on the head.

How can you get 5 LRs for vanilla? When I was looking in the book, only 1 terminator squad can take them as a dedicated transport. Where were you able to get the fifth?

The more I'm looking at that BA list, the more I'm liking it. It might require some tweaking -- such as going to just 3 AC/LC predators, but I can really see you getting enough long range fire to make anyone's life hard. I can see it being modestly competitive as well.

Only one terminator squad can take them as a dedicated transport.
AND
Only one assult terminator squad can take one as a dedicated transport

DarbNilbirts wrote:Only one terminator squad can take them as a dedicated transport.
AND
Only one assult terminator squad can take one as a dedicated transport

Ah ha, that's how you can do it. Thanks.

Melta vets in vendettas will have alot of fun with that list, especially if the IG player gets turn one.

If you are a Blood Angels land raider, then :-p

Deep striking land raiders just ain't right......

sfshilo wrote:Melta vets in vendettas will have alot of fun with that list, especially if the IG player gets turn one..

As was mentioned multiple times, its a rock/paper/sissors thing. An IG list with 3 meltavets in valks would have an easier time with the list I suggested -- though its not an auto-lose.

Here is the thing though....how many IG lists with 3 vet squads in valks are you seeing now a days? How many GK armies do you see in comparison?
When 50% of the players are throwing sissors, building a list that throws hard rock is something to consider.

In fact, out of the AV13/14 spam list I suggest, I only see these being really rough matchups
* IG
* Vulcan C:SM
* Tau
* Horde wolves, BA, or sisters
* Mech'dar
Given the percentage of those armies on the table today, I don't see it being that bad of an army to play.

labmouse42 wrote:

sfshilo wrote:Melta vets in vendettas will have alot of fun with that list, especially if the IG player gets turn one..

As was mentioned multiple times, its a rock/paper/sissors thing. An IG list with 3 meltavets in valks would have an easier time with the list I suggested -- though its not an auto-lose.

Right, 3 BS3 TLLCs are scary to AV14, but 2 BS4 TLLCs are even scarier to AV12. Likewise, meltavets may be scary to land raiders but what's inside land raiders are scary to vets. It's easy to talk about vendettas lascannoning land raiders, or driving up and unloading veterans, but it's just as easy to talk about lascannoning vendettas and then driving up and unloading on the veterans.

The biggest mistake people seem to make with land raiders is that they're nothing more than really expensive rhinos. Rhinos only cost ~30 points because they're basically worthless. Land raiders cost nearly ten times as much because they're not.

Ailaros wrote:Who can do it best is Black Templar. They take crusaders for + transport capacity, and they can also take blessed hull, which makes them immune to lance weapons. Second to that is probably CSM, who can take posession which outright ignores shaken and stunned results, meaning they get to keep on shooting better than PotMS.

As for in general, their use seems to be in their ability to concentrate your forces. As for the rock-paper-scissors thing, I wouldn't worry about it. Most melta you get to shoot at (or assault ramp assault) before it gets into melta range, which is also true about most other serious threats.

Meanwhile, even IF you hit with a non-melta wepon, and IF you penetrate the armor (and IF there's no cover), you STILL only have a 1/3 chance of destroying it. They're not THAT easy to destroy.

That hammerhead with a railgun may look scary, but that one rail shot destroys the raider on a .05, while a twin-linked lascannon pair destroys the hammerhead on .19. Put another way, two twin-linked lascannons on a land raider are 4 times more likely to destroy a railgun hammerhead.

It's easy to look at weapons designed to take down land raiders in a vacuum and then scoff at them. When you start taking a broader look at things, though (especially when you consider land raiders in the context of an army), that scoffing is often unjustified.

Hammerhead railguns are taken for blast, not for AT. The railguns that would be a problem are broadsides.

3 Broadsides with TA have a 89% to hit, 0.16% to glance and 0.33% chance to pen (per model) meaning if they all fire, you get: 3x0.89x0.33 for pen and ap1 means 50% of pens are vehicle destroyed.meaning about 45% chance to destroy one in one turn, and more than likely will break it on the second, plus the stunned and destroyed results etc. etc.

any sample BT 2000 point army lists? I was thinking 3 LRC could easily give cover to the cheap speeders which would be your transport busters. and you'd have built in horde control with those hurricane bolters which would double as mass fire against elite amies. Seems like you could get a descent punch in cc out of it that way too.....

what about using the GK book? 3 LR with shrouding from libby seems pretty good to me....plus you could take the needed cheap fire support as well. any ideas or thoughts on using the GK book, maybe with crowe and purifiers?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Who can do it best is Black Templar. They take crusaders for + transport capacity, and they can also take blessed hull, which makes them immune to lance weapons. Second to that is probably CSM, who can take posession which outright ignores shaken and stunned results, meaning they get to keep on shooting better than PotMS.

As for in general, their use seems to be in their ability to concentrate your forces. As for the rock-paper-scissors thing, I wouldn't worry about it. Most melta you get to shoot at (or assault ramp assault) before it gets into melta range, which is also true about most other serious threats.

Meanwhile, even IF you hit with a non-melta wepon, and IF you penetrate the armor (and IF there's no cover), you STILL only have a 1/3 chance of destroying it. They're not THAT easy to destroy.

That hammerhead with a railgun may look scary, but that one rail shot destroys the raider on a .05, while a twin-linked lascannon pair destroys the hammerhead on .19. Put another way, two twin-linked lascannons on a land raider are 4 times more likely to destroy a railgun hammerhead.

It's easy to look at weapons designed to take down land raiders in a vacuum and then scoff at them. When you start taking a broader look at things, though (especially when you consider land raiders in the context of an army), that scoffing is often unjustified.

Hammerhead railguns are taken for blast, not for AT. The railguns that would be a problem are broadsides.

3 Broadsides with TA have a 89% to hit, 0.16% to glance and 0.33% chance to pen (per model) meaning if they all fire, you get: 3x0.89x0.33 for pen and ap1 means 50% of pens are vehicle destroyed.meaning about 45% chance to destroy one in one turn, and more than likely will break it on the second, plus the stunned and destroyed results etc. etc.

You mean stunned and shaken that out EA, PotMS doesn't care about. The problem is you can at max shoot railguns at 6 targets. I can build a list with 7 LR and Techmarines inside. Yeah you may take couple down, but if we deploy say normally. I can get halfway across the board and then by turn two hit your lines assuming you aren't butts up against the back edge of the board. Even a few marines making it can tie up broadsides to let the others recover using the techmarines. It's at that point the tau are in big trouble. Not to mention I can pop smoke after turn one to reduce your chances of taking me out.
As for Just2fierce...I'll try to build a 2K list but the one I built with LR spam is 2500.

Akroma06 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Who can do it best is Black Templar. They take crusaders for + transport capacity, and they can also take blessed hull, which makes them immune to lance weapons. Second to that is probably CSM, who can take posession which outright ignores shaken and stunned results, meaning they get to keep on shooting better than PotMS.

As for in general, their use seems to be in their ability to concentrate your forces. As for the rock-paper-scissors thing, I wouldn't worry about it. Most melta you get to shoot at (or assault ramp assault) before it gets into melta range, which is also true about most other serious threats.

Meanwhile, even IF you hit with a non-melta wepon, and IF you penetrate the armor (and IF there's no cover), you STILL only have a 1/3 chance of destroying it. They're not THAT easy to destroy.

That hammerhead with a railgun may look scary, but that one rail shot destroys the raider on a .05, while a twin-linked lascannon pair destroys the hammerhead on .19. Put another way, two twin-linked lascannons on a land raider are 4 times more likely to destroy a railgun hammerhead.

It's easy to look at weapons designed to take down land raiders in a vacuum and then scoff at them. When you start taking a broader look at things, though (especially when you consider land raiders in the context of an army), that scoffing is often unjustified.

Hammerhead railguns are taken for blast, not for AT. The railguns that would be a problem are broadsides.

3 Broadsides with TA have a 89% to hit, 0.16% to glance and 0.33% chance to pen (per model) meaning if they all fire, you get: 3x0.89x0.33 for pen and ap1 means 50% of pens are vehicle destroyed.meaning about 45% chance to destroy one in one turn, and more than likely will break it on the second, plus the stunned and destroyed results etc. etc.

You mean stunned and shaken that out EA, PotMS doesn't care about. The problem is you can at max shoot railguns at 6 targets. I can build a list with 7 LR and Techmarines inside. Yeah you may take couple down, but if we deploy say normally. I can get halfway across the board and then by turn two hit your lines assuming you aren't butts up against the back edge of the board. Even a few marines making it can tie up broadsides to let the others recover using the techmarines. It's at that point the tau are in big trouble. Not to mention I can pop smoke after turn one to reduce your chances of taking me out.
As for Just2fierce...I'll try to build a 2K list but the one I built with LR spam is 2500.

With 7 landraiders in a 2500 force, you have only 750 points of infantry to kill, max. Therefore, you lose every objective game ever.

Also, with that many, if you build up a large enough infantry force to win, it has become apoc, and I can bring a manta, and your land raiders become irrelevant, or I can flood the board with broadsides.