im2randomghgh wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Who can do it best is Black Templar. They take crusaders for + transport capacity, and they can also take blessed hull, which makes them immune to lance weapons. Second to that is probably CSM, who can take posession which outright ignores shaken and stunned results, meaning they get to keep on shooting better than PotMS.

As for in general, their use seems to be in their ability to concentrate your forces. As for the rock-paper-scissors thing, I wouldn't worry about it. Most melta you get to shoot at (or assault ramp assault) before it gets into melta range, which is also true about most other serious threats.

Meanwhile, even IF you hit with a non-melta wepon, and IF you penetrate the armor (and IF there's no cover), you STILL only have a 1/3 chance of destroying it. They're not THAT easy to destroy.

That hammerhead with a railgun may look scary, but that one rail shot destroys the raider on a .05, while a twin-linked lascannon pair destroys the hammerhead on .19. Put another way, two twin-linked lascannons on a land raider are 4 times more likely to destroy a railgun hammerhead.

It's easy to look at weapons designed to take down land raiders in a vacuum and then scoff at them. When you start taking a broader look at things, though (especially when you consider land raiders in the context of an army), that scoffing is often unjustified.

Hammerhead railguns are taken for blast, not for AT. The railguns that would be a problem are broadsides.

3 Broadsides with TA have a 89% to hit, 0.16% to glance and 0.33% chance to pen (per model) meaning if they all fire, you get: 3x0.89x0.33 for pen and ap1 means 50% of pens are vehicle destroyed.meaning about 45% chance to destroy one in one turn, and more than likely will break it on the second, plus the stunned and destroyed results etc. etc.

You mean stunned and shaken that out EA, PotMS doesn't care about. The problem is you can at max shoot railguns at 6 targets. I can build a list with 7 LR and Techmarines inside. Yeah you may take couple down, but if we deploy say normally. I can get halfway across the board and then by turn two hit your lines assuming you aren't butts up against the back edge of the board. Even a few marines making it can tie up broadsides to let the others recover using the techmarines. It's at that point the tau are in big trouble. Not to mention I can pop smoke after turn one to reduce your chances of taking me out.
As for Just2fierce...I'll try to build a 2K list but the one I built with LR spam is 2500.

With 7 landraiders in a 2500 force, you have only 750 points of infantry to kill, max. Therefore, you lose every objective game ever.

Also, with that many, if you build up a large enough infantry force to win, it has become apoc, and I can bring a manta, and your land raiders become irrelevant, or I can flood the board with broadsides.

With 7 landraiders in a 2500 force, you have only 750 points of infantry to kill, max. Therefore, you lose every objective game ever.

im2randomghgh wrote:With 7 landraiders in a 2500 force, you have only 750 points of infantry to kill, max. Therefore, you lose every objective game ever.

Also, with that many, if you build up a large enough infantry force to win, it has become apoc, and I can bring a manta, and your land raiders become irrelevant, or I can flood the board with broadsides.

labmouse42 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:With 7 landraiders in a 2500 force, you have only 750 points of infantry to kill, max. Therefore, you lose every objective game ever.

Also, with that many, if you build up a large enough infantry force to win, it has become apoc, and I can bring a manta, and your land raiders become irrelevant, or I can flood the board with broadsides.

Oddly enough, 7 raiders at 2500 points would get steamrolled, yet 4 raiders at 1500 could do quite well.
At higher points, people bring more anti-AV 14 solutions, therefore the spam decreases in effect.

While are you seeing a few more Tau players with the growth of GK popularity, they are still not an army I would suggest bringing to a competitive event. Sure, you might have a good matchup for 40% of your matches, but the other 60% you will have a bad matchup, and those are not odds you want to play with. Its like hitting on 14 during blackjack.
Hold on to those Tau models, though. There will be a new codex in a year or two tops, you will have a nice boost in power!

Che-Vito wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:With 7 landraiders in a 2500 force, you have only 750 points of infantry to kill, max. Therefore, you lose every objective game ever.

Also, with that many, if you build up a large enough infantry force to win, it has become apoc, and I can bring a manta, and your land raiders become irrelevant, or I can flood the board with broadsides.

Oddly enough, 7 raiders at 2500 points would get steamrolled, yet 4 raiders at 1500 could do quite well.
At higher points, people bring more anti-AV 14 solutions, therefore the spam decreases in effect.

While are you seeing a few more Tau players with the growth of GK popularity, they are still not an army I would suggest bringing to a competitive event. Sure, you might have a good matchup for 40% of your matches, but the other 60% you will have a bad matchup, and those are not odds you want to play with. Its like hitting on 14 during blackjack.
Hold on to those Tau models, though. There will be a new codex in a year or two tops, you will have a nice boost in power!

Hey now; I'll likely be playing Farsight Tau at Origins this year. We'll see how that turns out
(although I am not decided if I'm going to play Tau for the singles or doubles, playing my Daemons or IG for the one that I don't play Tau for. Thread derail aside!)

Pony_law wrote:4 raiders at 1500 seems hard to do and be compettive. In vannila that's 1200 points at a minimum used up on a 5 man elite unit and 3 heavy slots, which means after a bare hq (1000 points in order to be leagal you have 2 five man squads. An army with 16 modles with 10 being regular marines is going to have a hard time.

Che-Vito wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:With 7 landraiders in a 2500 force, you have only 750 points of infantry to kill, max. Therefore, you lose every objective game ever.

Also, with that many, if you build up a large enough infantry force to win, it has become apoc, and I can bring a manta, and your land raiders become irrelevant, or I can flood the board with broadsides.

Oddly enough, 7 raiders at 2500 points would get steamrolled, yet 4 raiders at 1500 could do quite well.
At higher points, people bring more anti-AV 14 solutions, therefore the spam decreases in effect.

While are you seeing a few more Tau players with the growth of GK popularity, they are still not an army I would suggest bringing to a competitive event. Sure, you might have a good matchup for 40% of your matches, but the other 60% you will have a bad matchup, and those are not odds you want to play with. Its like hitting on 14 during blackjack.
Hold on to those Tau models, though. There will be a new codex in a year or two tops, you will have a nice boost in power!

Hey now; I'll likely be playing Farsight Tau at Origins this year. We'll see how that turns out
(although I am not decided if I'm going to play Tau for the singles or doubles, playing my Daemons or IG for the one that I don't play Tau for. Thread derail aside!)

he talks about tau not being competitive, and you respond with a Farsight list

I will eat my own words, if I don't do well in that tourney.
But, I think I'll do alright. I'm playing it EXACTLY because it's so subpar.

Che-Vito wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

I just find farsight counter intuitive, is he meant for melee? Then why's he so squishy. Is he meant for shooting? Then why does he only have one gun and a sword? Is he meant for vehicle killing? Because that's what his sword seems to want to do. What's the point of a shooty deathstar for a character with a sword?

He just confuses me. I am sure there is some super tricky play style for him that the designers had in mind and no one discovered yet

He wasn't too bad in 4e actually. 5e, with codex creep and transport spam (not to mention that explosion of Fast Skimmers) definitely nerfed his usefulness in competitive play.

His best use, is as a part of a bodyguard unit of 3-5 plus Farsight, tooled out entirely to drop in, punch out a few hard enemy units, and call it a day. People tend to lose sight of that when the completely tool up 7 Bodyguard plus Farsight, and then are suprised when said unit gets owned by better Deathstar units.

Che-Vito wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

I just find farsight counter intuitive, is he meant for melee? Then why's he so squishy. Is he meant for shooting? Then why does he only have one gun and a sword? Is he meant for vehicle killing? Because that's what his sword seems to want to do. What's the point of a shooty deathstar for a character with a sword?

He just confuses me. I am sure there is some super tricky play style for him that the designers had in mind and no one discovered yet

He wasn't too bad in 4e actually. 5e, with codex creep and transport spam (not to mention that explosion of Fast Skimmers) definitely nerfed his usefulness in competitive play.

His best use, is as a part of a bodyguard unit of 3-5 plus Farsight, tooled out entirely to drop in, punch out a few hard enemy units, and call it a day. People tend to lose sight of that when the completely tool up 7 Bodyguard plus Farsight, and then are suprised when said unit gets owned by better Deathstar units.

I only find that useful in 2000-2500 point games. Otherwise, you can already field more than enough, with the FoC leaving you with a potential 15 XV8s, and with standard suits being cheaper than bodyguards. How do YOU tool his bodyguard?

Well, he needs to absolutely earn his points back to make him worthwhile. Which means hard targets; other deathstars, expensive vehicles, MC, etc.
So I tend to run his bodyguard with Fusion/Plasma/Multitracker, with a Shield Drone or two thrown into the unit to fend off the stray missile or lascannon.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Black Templars. Beyond a doubt. Their "tacticals" can take them as transports and they are fierce anyways.

labmouse42 wrote:

Pony_law wrote:4 raiders at 1500 seems hard to do and be compettive. In vannila that's 1200 points at a minimum used up on a 5 man elite unit and 3 heavy slots, which means after a bare hq (1000 points in order to be leagal you have 2 five man squads. An army with 16 modles with 10 being regular marines is going to have a hard time.

As I mentioned earlier, only BA can do AV14/13 spam really well.
I was imagining it as 4 assault squads in redeemers/mars patterns. While its tight on points, you can pull it off.

Is it competitive? No. Not for serious play.
Its a theme list, and if your facing an ork or GK player, you will steamroll them. If you face mech' guard or mech' eldar you will be crushed.

My point was that at lower point values, AV14 spam is more effective as there are less counters. As point values increase people bring more anti-AV14.