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I can't decide where to go with my bikes, I know that I want to go as pure bike as I can...

If curious as to points, I'm looking at 1750

My three ideas are:

a Vulkan in a sternpod list with melta bikes galore
a Ravenwing list (scout seems worth it)
a Khan outflank to the max list

Any thoughts, guidance, warnings?

Ravenwing is a good option.

Playing any sort of heavily themed deployment list is doing to do one of three things for you;

Be everywhere and nowhere at the same time,

Force you to become a better tactican as you'll have to learn to get every foot for the milage of the joes that are on the board and,

On rare occasion, have an absolute blast-sometimes the stars align, the opponent doesn't take you seriously or the dice decide they love you.

The best warning I can give; is be forgiving. Those sorts of list will be extremely fickle and challenging to play, but also very rewarding.

Good luck and happy hunting!

Lobukia wrote:I know that I want to go as pure bike as I can...

I started my bike army in 2009, and still play games with them today.
Pure bike lists are fluff lists. As such, they are semi-competitive and you will lose many games. In a game of rock-sissors-paper, your throwing hard paper. If your opponent has the tools to handle the bike list (ie, war walkers with scatter lasers) your army will fold like a house of cards. If they are not able to handle it (ie, IG gunline) then you can handle them.

Lobukia wrote:Ia Vulkan in a sternpod list with melta bikes galore

This list has potential, while you have to give up combat tactics, the ability to twin-link melta is very powerful. With this list, I suggest using a LR with TH/SS termies, and speeders for support.

Lobukia wrote:Ia Ravenwing list (scout seems worth it)

No. Build lists using ravenwing and C:SM bikes. The Ravenwing costs more and you just flat out get less -- even with cheaper typhoons.

Lobukia wrote:Ia Khan outflank to the max list

This works at 2500 point levels, where you can bring outflanking TH/SS termies in a LR. In smaller games, Kahn is just a bit to expensive, and the cost of combat tactics is not worth it.

Lobukia wrote:IAny thoughts, guidance, warnings?

I've mentioned combat tactics a few times. It fits a bike army very well, and I made a post a few months ago talking about the uses of combat tactics.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390877.page

When fielding a 1000 point bike list, I bring 3 squads to the table. When fielding a 2000 point bike army I bring 4 squads to the table.
After playing many games, this is the bike squad that I found to work best. It gives 3 ablative wounds before you have to start losing special weapons. Remember to take the first wound on the MM attack bike.
* PF
* 2 MG/PG
* 2 Bullet Catchers
* 1 MM Attack Bike
You want to use the MM attack bike as its statically about as good vs MEQ as a HB, and --much-- better vs heavy armor. My normal squads run with 2 PG and 1 MM so I can throw out 5 AP1/2 shots when up close. This is a staggering amount of fasting heavy firepower.
People complain about PG's getting hot. Every time you shoot a PG, there is a 1/18 chance of the PG shooter dying. That means you can guess you will get 18 shots off, or kill 10 MEQ out of cover -- an excellent trade for 40 points.
I bring the PF as you will need to assault after you light them up with those shots.
Focus fire with 2 squads on one target whenever possible.
Stay turbo-boosted every turn until your ready to commit. I have won many games just by turbo-bossting squads around the table then objective grabbing on turn 5.

A hybrid list with bikes and support gives a more well-rounded army, and will do better in games. After many, many games, this is the 1750 list that I found that works best for me.


One nice perk of a bike army is how good they can look on the table.


Hope this helps!!!

Thanks for the help guys

Really gives me some food for thought. I know I'll eat some loses, but I'm OK with that, as my current club presents few challenges, but I feel like I'm insulting players when I do an all tactical list or the like (my last two armies had both Honour Guard and Vanguard units).

I figure letting them get some licks in on me as I learn a new style of play will go a long way towards restoring some competitive balance and giving back some confidence to the other players.

Ravenwing is as awesome as bikes go. Expensive but you'll be scouting, outlfanking, fearless and have a silly number of scoring units.

Vulkan is not super great given you have to fit him in and this requires a lot of points to work.

Khan for bike lists only works at low cost. Outflank is really not needed for bikes who happen to be able to turbo boost down a flank. However his command squad can be a good excuse to use him.

Vanilla marines are also a great choice for a bike army. Combat tactics is really important to keep your bikes alive.

I also play a bike army and I have to echo much of what labmouse and MFletch have said:
1- Ravenwing bike list is fluffy and rather fun to play
2- Khan bike list is fluffy but won't work as well as Ravenwing.
3- Playing a bike-only list will give you a win-loss ratio of about 1-5.

Here are things you should consider:

Easy match you had before will now become super hard. Bikes cannot assault at all since they take dangerous terrain every time they assault, consolidate, fall back (that is at least 2x dangerous terrain test per model every time you try to assault).

Bikes cannot assault units in another level. That means you will have a hard time against devastators, TLAC Dreadnoughts, Thunderfire cannon, ...

You also cannot capture objective on the 2nd floor.

All of the above ALONE make you lose every single capture / objective point out there. That is 2/3 of the time losing just because you play a bike-only list.

Then you get out-gun by Space Wolves or BA Razorspam. You got instant killed by Vindicators, ....

So before you sink $300+ on something that you THINK will be fun to play, I advise you to reconsider. Nobody likes to lose all the time (not draw mind you, straight up losing).

The ONLY way to run a bike army is not to run an all bike army. You should have 50% of your points on 5-man bike squads. The other half is for Pred, Dread, HQ, Assault Termies in Land Raider, Thunderfire cannon, ...

labmouse's 5-man bike squad is spot on. I run a variant of that which is range-only.

Codex Space Marine - 5 bikes total
1 Sgt - just bolt pistol
2x Plasmagun / Meltagun
2x Bikes

I put the MM Attack bikes on to group of 3 for tank hunting.

leohart wrote:Easy match you had before will now become super hard. Bikes cannot assault at all since they take dangerous terrain every time they assault, consolidate, fall back (that is at least 2x dangerous terrain test per model every time you try to assault).

I don't suppose you could show where in the BRB this is, please? I've not seen that in the rules at this time.

leohart wrote:You also cannot capture objective on the 2nd floor.

When someone puts an objective out of your reach, they know their being a doochebag. I've encountered this only a handful of times in multiple tourney's with my bikes.

Secondly, you can also place your objective in the middle of the open with no cover. This is a distinct advantage, as bike armies bring their own cover with them (ie, turbo-boosting) it prevents the other player from just walking up and hiding in cover next to you.

Leohart brings up some good points though. Vindicators will kill you dead.
The biggest problem with razorspam lists as bikes is this -- your longest AT range weapon is 24" as bikes, and your only really good within 12". Why the heck did you just move within assault range of those wolves/orks/bezerkers, etc.... That's why the long range shooting is so critical, as it lets your bikes shoot the infantry instead of their candy-coated shell.

leohartI wrote: put the MM Attack bikes on to group of 3 for tank hunting.

I strongly disagree with this tactic. Even a HB bike is only 15 points more than a regular bike, and should be taken if your absolutey broke on points and cant afford the extra 10 for a MM bike.

That attack bike gives you an ablative wound from STR 7 hits or less (and you will get shot by those a lot) without losing combat effectiveness. Since your first wound is always on the attack bike, its a great way to give that extra bit of resiliance to your army.


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MFletch wrote:Ravenwing is as awesome as bikes go. Expensive but you'll be scouting, outlfanking, fearless and have a silly number of scoring units

And a huge cost associated with the army. Make a ravenwing army, then make the same army with C:SM. How many more models do you get with your C:SM army.

In an army where your base models are 25 points, you will already have a low count on the board. Going with ravenwing only aggravates the problem, as you have even less bodies on the table.
Sure, the fearless and scout are nice, but its not enough. Furthermore, you have to take the point sink Sammuel. Hes...ok...but he's not awesome.
You also lose LD 10 psykers by going with DA. In the world of GK, psychic hoods are worth their weight in gold, and I always bring a librarian on a bike to help combat it (and provide Null Zone)

Ravenwing is good for fluff, but it falls behind dramatically in competitivness. In an army that is already hurting with DE, and GK, going ravenwing is just silly.

@labmouse: I need to qualify that sentence: When trying to assault units in cover, you are at a great disadvantage since you need to take at least 2 dangerous terrain test per model at the very least.

Unfortunately, 5th ed 40k is all about units sitting in cover. Razorback in cover. Long fang in cover, shootas in cover, snipers in cover. Not to mention the IG parking lot in cover. You just cannot assault into them with a 5-bike-1-attack-bike squad and not take 1 wound of dangerous terrain.

You have 1 MM 2 Melta popping up a transport full of troops. Now you are at a dilemma:
1- Assault those troops now in a crater and die of dangerous terrain? (if those are SW grey hunters, good luck winning with their counter assault and 2 attack base. If they are BA, now you are just getting creamed by FNP + 2 attack base.)
2- Not assaulting those troops and die next turn when they charge you?

This is why I have found MM Attack bike squad of 3 to be better. I can pop transport and still be out of their assault range or I can go in for a kamikaze against their Land Raider.

Putting the Attack Bike into my bike squad make them stay there for longer. I want to be able to use Combat Tactic fall back as soon as possible so I opt for no attack bike in bike squad.

I run a bike list as it is right now. I currently Run a Vulkan list in a LR with Assault Termies and Hammers. It provides a great punch in combat where bikes are lacking. But it is expensive. Close ot 600 pts for that unit.

Now I have had great success with my list running 3 troop choices as Bikes with 2 meltas and a Combi Melta, with an Attack bike. You have ot add 2 regular bikers to make them troop. I also run the Capt on a bike with a relic blade and combi melta with command squad with plasma guns. And support them with Landspeeders with Melta and flamers. I can pop tanks all day and a lot of times I am fast enough to get ou tof the way of the troops inside.

I have seen the Khan list work amazingly well with Scouts in Speeder Storms. Carrying 5 scouts with a Melta bomb set up. Two of these units outflanking can really hurt your opponets back line. He also supports his list with 2 Thunderfire cannons in higher points, making everything coming his way move through dangerous terrain with the earth shaker shots.

There are a lot of competeive and unique bike lists, I would go with the Space Marine Codex for them as they allow the most options for you.

TFC Tremor only affects vehicles. Taking two just to provide 2-3 vehicles with being tremor? Meh, you can get a AC/Las Pred and take them right out instead of hoping for that 1/6 chance.

Scouts in LSS w/ Fist or Meltabomb is the ONLY way to use a LSS. Put in a HF for extra effectiveness.

But then again, back to OP's question: at 1750, running an all bike is only for fluff. Running Ravenwing is also only for fluff. Running Vulkan with a bike list is also a bad idea since you need Captain on Bike to make bike squad troop.

The only sensible choice really is:
Captain on Bike
(optional) Librarian on Bike
Bikes
Bikes
Bikes
Bikes
Pred AC/LC
Pred AC/LC (or Vindi)
TLAC Dread
TFC (maybe)

The point is to open the cans and let them run after your bikes in futile as you gun them down. For parking lot IG, Long Fangs, ... Turbo Boost and assault.

BA bike jumper list

I've wanted to try this out using bikes to sceen ASM and allow the bikes to take a charge so the ASM's get the charge on the next turn. And of course using the Attack bikes with MM's for tank hunting

Wow, feel like I'm sitting in a class (good thing), I'm learning so much.

Slightly related question. Can a command squad on bikes still take a Rhino? I can't see any reason they can't, and that will allow me to have a blocking unit (however, I feel like I'm missing something, because if you can, why wouldn't every do this for bike lists).

Lobukia wrote:Wow, feel like I'm sitting in a class (good thing), I'm learning so much.

Slightly related question. Can a command squad on bikes still take a Rhino? I can't see any reason they can't, and that will allow me to have a blocking unit (however, I feel like I'm missing something, because if you can, why wouldn't every do this for bike lists).

Interesting question. I see nothing in C:SM that says no. BRB may say something against it though (dont have one available atm). I've never thought of that. A friend did make it painfully obvious one day that you don't need to deploy inside a dedicated transport. If thats the case its possible you could bring one. Again all speculation since I dont Have the BRB

Yes you can take the dedicated transport option for your command squad. I doubt you have enough transport in a bike list to make LOS blocking possible. You might as well just use "bike wave" technique.

This works only if your enemy already has cover save.

- Have 3+ squads of bikes
- Put them behind one another:
11111
22222
33333
- Every turn, turbo boost the squad in the back forward:
33333
11111
22222

This way 2 squads can shoot. Front squad has 3+ cover save and all squads have 4+ cover save all the time.

Again, this is ONLY good against people who already has cover save. Trying to do this while running away from genestealers, wyches and such is a bad idea since you give them cover saves.

Thanks leo! I'll keep that in mind (I'd like to think that I'd have thought of that on my own, but probably not)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't need to block the entire unit, so I could have a couple meltas and such shoot from the flanks without giving a cover save (if only they shoot) yet my entire squad would receive cover from return fire.

A small tactical note on that "bike wave" technique: the front line can be put side-way while the back lines is put straight.

That way, if the enemy shoot your front line and kill some, you use combat tactics to fall back through the ranks of the other bikes. Tada, no assault for you.

If the enemy shoot your back lines, you get cover save AND they cannot assault through your front line because they can never get within 1" of a model they are NOT assaulting.

Of course, they can tank shock you out of the way but if you still have your two special weapon dudes (either 2x Plasma or 2x Melta), Death and Glory shoot to the back armour => AWESOME.

Just don't do this to a Land Raider Redeemer or a Storm Raven. It will run you over, shoot its ignore-cover flame storm cannon and disgorge a bunch of blood-thirsty assault terminators (most likely with TH/SS) in your face. This is from personal experience BTW.

OK, well I feel much smarter now, and here's the two candidates of what I think I'll run for my first 1.75k list. Some odd choices reflect WYSIWYG and what I own (we are actually pretty strict at my club on this). I know I'm not optimizing the information above, but I want to see how things work, and I don't mind losing a few games to figure that out.

Codex Space Marines

Bike Libby (can't decide powers)
Bike Captain with 2+/4++, Hellfire and MBomb
Bike Command Squad with LC/SS and 1 MBomb, 1 PP
Dakka Dread
IronClad with MeltaCF in Dpod +HF Missile
3x Troop Bike Squad of 4 Bikes, 1 MM ABike, PF Sarg w MBomb, Melta/PG
3x Single MM Abike

I think my goal with the above is to turn one flank, but use TB if I have to, to switch flanks if I deploy first (using the IronClad as a linchpin for the switch)

Dark Angel Ravenwing (so fluffy and so fast, I'm having a hardtime ignoring it).

Sammael on Jetbike
Upgraded 7 bike Ravenwing Attack Squad with MM ABike, PF Sarg, Melta/PG
3x 4 Bike Squad with MM Abike, 2 Melta, PF Sarg w MB
2x 3 Bike Squad with 2 Melta, PW Sarg w MB (most likely reserve these)
5 TH/SS Deathwing Termies w CML (reserve)

Again, take over 1/2 the board, hope for outflanks that matter (easy enough to TB around if not), upgraded squad actually can matter in CC (if needed).

I know, I know, too bike heavy, but to learn bikes I have to use bikes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
After a few bike heavy runs, I can really see myself running a labmouse like list for awhile... plus, once we get to our summer league, everything is 2K lists... so that will open up some more options for me.

I will go for the first list

Bike Libby - Null Zone - Force Dome (the right one at the right turn, then shoot and then charge)
Bike Captain 3+/4+, Twin Lightning Claws and MBomb (or Relic Blade and MBomb)
Bike Command Squad, 2 SS, 3 LC, 2 Melta, 1 TH, Apo (mix and match the weapons so you can use wound allocation shennanigan)
TLAC TLAC Dread
Ironclad - MeltaCF in Droppod (it just doesn't make sense to EVER upgrade to HF missle on a drop pod)
3x Troop Bike squad of 5 bikes total, 1 MM AB, Sarg has combi or nothing, 2x melta / 2x plasma (sure, if your sarge already WYSIWYG power fist, go for it. You have been warned).
3x MM Attack Bikes.

With the captain riding along the command squad, you get FNP against AP3 anyway (so 4+ invul, then 4+ FNP). For AP2 weapons, the Artificer upgrade won't even be helpful. For AP1, it is just stupid to put it on the captain since he will be ID.

I have a thread on Dakka that mathhammer out why TLC is better than Relic Blade on bikes. You can still shoot your twin-linked bolters AND charge.

You HAVE to have 5 bikes to be counted as troop.

If you go first, put everything on the 12" line across the board. Most stuff in the middle. That will force them to deploy to the side.

If you go second, deploy on 1/4 of one side of the board, they won't be in range to shoot at you and you will be flanking them to death.

Just to clarrify... those 3x 4 bikes were then +1 for ABike and +1 for Sarg, total of 6 bikes... the HK was on the IronClad, not the pod... but ditched it for the TLC on the Captain (made sense, along with dumping the AArmor). I did the wound allocation game with the Command Squad...

Still not sure on Null Zone, not used it much, but MathHammer seems to support it, so sure.

Also toying with adding a second Dakka Dread and ditching a lone ABike, the IronClad and the Libby. I could also add an Archer Dread (LC/ML) and a Typhoon.

So which is better?

MM ABike, IronClad in DP, and Bike Libby

or

Rifleman Dread, Archer Dread, Typhoon speeder

(sadly, the biggest issue for me with what Dreads are available... I let younger/newer players use my units, currently I think all but one of my 8 dread chassis are spoken for already except the one with 2x TLAC, yet the week has not gone by in which one of the players is a no show/ no call, how I love the teenage sense of reliability and communication).

I think Bike Libby option is better because

1- Null Zone is just too good to pass
2- Psychic Hood is just pure gold these days
3- Iron Clad in DP is very very mean. Drop down and melta away. The dread will be dead but it will soak up a ridiculous amount of shots. If he is not dead, something is gonna die (very very fast).

Lobukia wrote:OK, well I feel much smarter now, and here's the two candidates of what I think I'll run for my first 1.75k list. Some odd choices reflect WYSIWYG and what I own (we are actually pretty strict at my club on this). I know I'm not optimizing the information above, but I want to see how things work, and I don't mind losing a few games to figure that out.
Bike Libby (can't decide powers)
Bike Captain with 2+/4++, Hellfire and MBomb
Bike Command Squad with LC/SS and 1 MBomb, 1 PP
Dakka Dread
IronClad with MeltaCF in Dpod +HF Missile
3x Troop Bike Squad of 4 Bikes, 1 MM ABike, PF Sarg w MBomb, Melta/PG
3x Single MM Abike

I think my goal with the above is to turn one flank, but use TB if I have to, to switch flanks if I deploy first (using the IronClad as a linchpin for the switch)

* For the libby, I run Null Zone and the power that gives him STR 6. This basically makes him have a relic blade, and gives him more chops in assault.

* If you can squeeze a relic blade in your captain by dropping the other stuff I suggest it. Since your group is WYSIWYG, there is a convient white scars captain you can buy with a relic blade! As you perfer the LC, you can always make your own model. One of the really cool things about the plastic kits is that you can make your own. For example, this is a Yuriel I made for a tourney last month when I did not have the model. The body is a fantasy mage, the staff arm is a human mage, the spear is a dragon rider, and the head is a fantasy chariot rider. You can make a captain look like what-ever you want.


* I've not had luck with bike command squads. I suggest proxy'ing them out before spending lots of money and time converting. Your paying a premium for models these models, yet unlike nob bikers, they only have 1 wound each. In a meta with GK psy-dreads and psy-cannons, these guys just are not worth the points. The problem only increases with more bling on these guys. You can easily get this command squad over 300 points without the captain. For that cost you can get ~8 TH/SS termies, and the command squad just can't hold a candle to them. In a meta of mephison, Nob Bikers, Twolf clav, etc, the TH/SS option is vastly better than trying to tool up a bike squad to do the same thing. To make matters worse, when you do have to assault models in cover, your losing a 60 point model 1/6 of the time. Owch!
The -- only -- way I could see using a command squad would be to bring 4 MG to the table, but if you run the numbers you see its better to actually bring 2 bike squads over that. Crazy, but true.

* The dakka dread is OK. Anti-infantry is not something bikes are lacking, as each comes with a TL bolter, so those LC sponsons would deliver more if you can spare the points.

* That Ironclad dread can be highly effective. Your opponent has to deal with it, and so thats one turn hes less worried about your bikes. You can also use that dreads to take our priority targets like manticores.

* If you give your bike squads the same weapon, they will have the same function. Ie, don't put one PG and one MG on each squad. Double down. Give one squad 2 PG, and one 2 MG.
If you can squeeze out 25 points more per squad, you can add that extra bullet catcher in each squad. You might find that going with 5 man squads works, but I find that extra bullet catcher before I start losing precious special weapons is worth it. Basically, special weapons are what make a bike squad good -- you get 2 of them and can move them into place quickly. When you start losing them, the bike squad loses its killy-ness, and is only good for contesting/capturing.
If your briniging a PF, drop the MB on your searg. Its just not needed. Give em a combi-melta if you have the points.

* I approve of the MM attack bikes. Their a good threat that will generate lots of attention.


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Lobukia wrote:Still not sure on Null Zone, not used it much, but MathHammer seems to support it, so sure.

Null Zone is the key to taking down SS models. It lowers the chances of a sucessful save from 66% to 45%.

Let me tell you a story that happened at the last 'ard boys. I was playing a space wolf player with 2 T-wolf calv units. He rushed one unit up, and it had 3 T-wolves and one lord with a SS.
I null-zoned him and then focused fire with 3 PG/MM bike squads. 15 AP1/2 shots later the T-wolf squad was obliterated. He brought his other one up, and I repeated the exercise.
Without a NULL zone, he would have assulted me and it would have been game over for me. The ability to lower that invuln save is huge.

The power that labmouse is talking about is "Might of the Ancients", it is better than Relic Blade since it makes him Str 6 and 2D6 for armour penetration.

This is as good as Machine Curse in glancing LR (but it does so in the Assault phase). Of course, against anything smaller than a AV14 vehicle, the librarian will just take it out right away.

So Null Zone + Might of the Ancients, or Null Zone + Force Dome or Null Zone + Machine Curse.

I also echo labmouse's comment on the command squad. It is a glass cannon death star. Unlike rock deathstar like THSS Termies, they die too quick to justify the points. I do have a command squad death star (two actually, one for range, one for close combat). They have been in the carrying case for a long time. They just make my games go bad very quickly at around turn 3.

Saturate on Str8+ weapons for all supporting units mean: TLLC ML Dread, ACLC Pred, Vindi, ...

If you don't have any of these options and thinking of picking 1 up, I will say go with the ACLC Pred since it has 3 guns.

labmouse42 wrote:
If you can squeeze a relic blade in your captain by dropping the other stuff I suggest it. Since your group is WYSIWYG, there is a convient white scars captain you can buy with a relic blade! As you perfer the LC, you can always make your own model. One of the really cool things about the plastic kits is that you can make your own.

I'm actually good here, own one of each already (1 DLC model and 1 RB, well Khan)

* I've not had luck with bike command squads... ...The -- only -- way I could see using a command squad would be to bring 4 MG to the table, but if you run the numbers you see its better to actually bring 2 bike squads over that. Crazy, but true.

Good food for thought.... but the command squad gives me scoring bikes, so I need to take it as some level if I want to go all bikes, right? Maybe I just need to make it bare bones... Of course two scout squads of 5 will hardly break the bank. EDIT: oh, its the captain not the command squad, well that does change some things

* The dakka dread is OK. Anti-infantry is not something bikes are lacking, as each comes with a TL bolter, so those LC sponsons would deliver more if you can spare the points.

Yeah, I've been tooling that around in my head... I also toyed with a PC Dread, as that helps against massed PA

* That Ironclad dread can be highly effective. Your opponent has to deal with it, and so thats one turn hes less worried about your bikes. You can also use that dreads to take our priority targets like manticores.

Agreed, I just like IC dreads, I've seen some math hammer showing them overcosted, but I don't care... CFist and Melta with +1 AV, I can't pass

* ...Give one squad 2 PG, and one 2 MG.... You might find that going with 5 man squads works, but I find that extra bullet catcher before I start losing precious special weapons is worth it... If your briniging a PF, drop the MB on your searg. Its just not needed. Give em a combi-melta if you have the points.

Good points, I do have a total of 6 bikes in my squads, just worded it funny, 1 Sarg, 1 ABike, 2 Specials, 2 meat shields

* I approve of the MM attack bikes. They're a good threat that will generate lots of attention.

I hope so

Lobukia wrote:Still not sure on Null Zone, not used it much, but MathHammer seems to support it, so sure.

Null Zone is the key to taking down SS models. It lowers the chances of a sucessful save from 66% to 45%.

Let me tell you a story that happened at the last 'ard boys. I was playing a space wolf player with 2 T-wolf calv units. He rushed one unit up, and it had 3 T-wolves and one lord with a SS.
I null-zoned him and then focused fire with 3 PG/MM bike squads. 15 AP1/2 shots later the T-wolf squad was obliterated. He brought his other one up, and I repeated the exercise.
Without a NULL zone, he would have assulted me and it would have been game over for me. The ability to lower that invuln save is huge.

Uncle, , Well I'm sold, Null zone it is, and I'm glad you gave Might of Ancients the nod, was toying around with that too

Thanks again for the help... Saturday seems too far away right now

You only need Captain on Bike or Khan on Mondrakken to make your 5-man bike squad troop. (I am not sure if it says 5 bikes or 5 models).

My story on Null Zone is when I took out a full strength C'tan Shard with a flurry of 20 bolter rapid fire (40 shots) at 12" range from my tactical squad. Tactical squad sucks so bad but with Null Zone, they are doing ok :-).

leohart wrote:You only need Captain on Bike or Khan on Mondrakken to make your 5-man bike squad troop. (I am not sure if it says 5 bikes or 5 models)

Now I'm torn.... but I'll admit the Command Squad was looking better in a Khan army than a UM force, and that does free up some serious points

Lobukia wrote:Good food for thought.... but the command squad gives me scoring bikes, so I need to take it as some level if I want to go all bikes, right? Maybe I just need to make it bare bones... Of course two scout squads of 5 will hardly break the bank. EDIT: oh, its the captain not the command squad, well that does change some things

Nope! All you need is the captain. The command squad is not required.

And those LC models can be Sargs now (my club does alow WYSIWYG downgrades as long as they're universal ie: all LC are PW)....

...but so many locals think a PF sarg is the cat's meow.... torn again

Meh. Khan takes Combat Tactics in exchange for Outflanking. It has been shown again and again that the ability to fall back when you get shot at (and about to be assaulted) is just pure awesome.

Who cares about Outflanking, 1/3 of the time you will end up in the wrong side and then you have just wasted turn 1 waiting in reserve (providing that you even come in on turn 2). There is no place on the table that you cannot reach by turn 2 with turboboosting. Thus, taking Khan for outflanking bikes is, statistically speaking, just out right bad.

Outflanking a LRR full of termies + Khan + a libby is another idea however .

Btw, stop caring about those local players, if they can't be classy and play a game, try a different club. Who cares if your bolter sargs are now all PF sargs, not everyone get 6-digit paycheck (or 500 to spend per month on hobby). Classy/Good players will entertain 10-20% of proxying.

Lobukia wrote:Now I'm torn.... but I'll admit the Command Squad was looking better in a Khan army than a UM force, and that does free up some serious points

Yeppers...
And Kahn also does not really come into his own until you get well into the 2k round. By that point your outflanking terminators, which can be a very nasty punch.

Before you hit the 2k point, bikes are great. After that you start to put so many models on the board (each with a long base) that the board begins to get cliuttered with bikes.
When I started with bikes, I used just bikes. In a 1750 list, I brought ~40 bikes. I found that I was having a hard time getting my special weapons in place as they were blocked by other bikes. I also could not turbo-boost without worrying about other bike squads being in the way. Simply put, I had to many bikes.

As each bike has a 24" threat range and 12" extreme threat range, its easy to get cluttered with to many bikes in a small space. You rapidly get to the point where you just can't fit enough of your weapons into close range. To make matters worse, your vulnerable to multi-assulted and large blasts.

That's why I moved to a larger support element. When I started adding models with a large effective range, ie dreads, preads, and typhoons, the effective power of the army increased dramatically. Not only could I take out vehicles at range, but my ability to focus my entire army on one single point increased. Instead of being cluttered, my bikes had plenty of room to maneuver.

Please forgive the image spam, but I want to make a point here.
You can significantly increase the effect of your bikes by congo-lining them when possible. Stick your special weapons up front, then your PF, and then your MM bike. Have your bullet-catchers trailing so you don't have to lose effect.
In the image blow, I have 4 squads in a 2500 point game. As this was 'ard boys I brought 7 per squad to help weather the fire, and the missions were friendly for troop squads over half strength. As you can see though, the congo-lining was a good tool that I used.