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First time posting on dakka.com, bear with me. Let me know if this needs to be in a different topic.
My buddy runs this:

Swarmlord with 3 guards.
Tyranofex with cannon.
2 zoans in a pod
1 doom in a pod

4 squads of 10 genestealers with a broodlord in each squad.

He'll use the 'fex to pop vehicles, probably keep the lord in cover until the genes have soften up the meat for him. He'll probably keep the genes in reserve and try to outflank (he gets the +1 reserve roll and reroll the outflank), he also won't hesitate to infiltrate them if he gets first turn. He'll pod the zoans in range of the vehicles to try and pop them, and the doom in the middle of troops to suck lives away.

I tend to struggle against nyds in general but I know I'll have difficulties with that swarm. I've had some success with a Kantor/hammer-termies in LR and Lysander/sternguards in pod before. Wanna try something different this time, something still tournament-worthy but more shooty (to deal with swarms).

My list:

Kantor, with hammer-termies in LR, full steam ahead towards 'fex
Sternguards in pod to drop near Lord and try to inflict as many wounds as possible 1st turn
Dread with plasma cannon and heavy flamer for some fire support
3 5-man tactical squads each in a razorback (2 TL las, 1 TL Assault cannon), the reasoning behind this is to keep the troops inside to avoid being wounded by the Doom, the razorbacks will start shooting at the Lord.
3 attack bikes with HBs to shoot and stay away from the genes
3 Land Speeders (squad of 2 with HBs and 1 assault cannon, 1 by itself with HB and Typhoon launcher)
1 vindicator

I'll try to create somewhat of a gun line with the razorbacks and vindicator, hopefully get some cover. The fast attack units will try to harrass the genes as much as possible.

Any comments/feedback are appreciated as well as other good builds.
Thanks.

Librarian in a tank tends to be the best way way to deal with zoans. Staying in tanks tends to be the best way to deal with the doom.

I think I would go for more range and more armour. Keep way back and stay inside.

Zoanthrope, I suppose the doom and the 265 pt BS3 rock as the only antitank that can easily reach you.
If genestealers have to open tanks first they usually end up dying. They have to hit without using their WS and then try to rend, then when successful you get a turn to rapid fire them.

I like the theory behind the Librarian but in my experience the hood doesn't work all that efficiently... Specially since the Ld on both models is the same.

I've got a predator I can try to fit in the mix, maybe drop the Dread for it?

Thanks for the feedback.

phoenix darkus wrote:I like the theory behind the Librarian but in my experience the hood doesn't work all that efficiently... Specially since the Ld on both models is the same.

I've got a predator I can try to fit in the mix, maybe drop the Dread for it?

Thanks for the feedback.

I think MFletch wasn't talking about the hood so much as the power Null Zone. This power forces the enemy to re-roll successful Invlun saves, and is considered near-mandatory by most SM players. Null Zone dramatically reduces the lifespan of any Z-thrope in its radius.

The hood has just under 1/2 chance of stopping a st10 lance, which is pretty good. Then nullzone can be worth the risk.
Then trying to instant kill monsters is also nice and worth the risk.

Flamer templates tend to be good. Usualy from a landspeeder with flamer and missile launcher. Fire kraks until the genestealer comes, wait til he charges your rhino/razorback etc, the slide over, flame them and use the frag misiles as defensive weaponds. Works vs me all the time.

Also, they have a hard came catching up to your landspeeders.

Dreadnoughts also work since that AV12 can be hard, even with rending, and he often has a flamer. (If you already have a drop pod, then perhaps get one more.) But I can not say why you are having a hard time vs tyranids. My regular oponent never does.

With a hood involved Zoans becomes more of a waste of pts than anything really.
Consider a plain old rhino:
First they have a 11/12 chance of passing the test, then there is a 21/36 chance of the power not being hodded. Then there is the 2/3 chance to hit and then a 5/6 chance of penetrating and a 1/2 chance of destroying said rhino.
In total this leavse us with a ~15% Chance of popping a rhino. If the rhino has poped smoke or are in cover then you are ofc looking at half that.

For a full brood you will have a less than 40% chance of popping a rhino out of cover.

Let them assault you while your guys are in cover. Just shoot them, and then swing first in melee. So long as you don't run MSU squads, you will win every time.

But you're running MSU. Bad. No wonder you're losing.

You are also suciding your sternguard. Deploy them on the field and shoot. You will get at least two turns of shooting, more than likely three.

Sorry, noob: what do you mean by MSU?

phoenix darkus wrote:Sorry, noob: what do you mean by MSU?

Multiple small units.

libby with null zone would be grate against those zoans. Hood and null zone (even in the warp shadow) is evil to them.

Most acronynms will show up what they are on dakka. A few: POTMS, DOW.

MSU means multiple small units, or minimum numbers of models in a unit, and lots of units.

Thanks. Was on my mobile, it didn't pop up.

My thoughts.

MSU is fine against nids....just not with vanilla marines. Losing the special and heavy weapon isn't worth the heavy weapon on the transport trade off IMO.

Librarians really take the sting out of Doom and Zoans.

You can't suicide units, it's a waste. The Terminators into the Tyranno is a bad match up, as the LR is about the best target possible for the Tyranno. If your opponent is even remotely intelligent the Swarmlord and friends will be hanging out close to wreck Kantor and the Termies. Those Bone Sabres really cut deep on termies, and will 1 shot Kantor. Same deal with the Sternguard. Dropping them and popping all their combi-weapons is a sure fire way to get them dead in 1 turn.

List suggestions; Switch the Razors for rhinos. Go to 2 tactical squads of 10 man with a heavy weapon and special weapon, probably a combi-weapon on the serg matching your special (eg, flamer and combi-flamer would work for this matchup). Switch the Attack Bikes to multi-meltas. Land Speeders should be either Heavy flamer/MM or Typhoons with a heavy bolter. Dread isn't too bad typically, but you won't get much out of it against a nid list like this.

-Vindicator is okay, but remember to always target units in the open so he isn't getting a cover save, try to target the Swarmlord and guard. Best case you can inflict 4 wounds a turn, but even 1 or 2 will help.
-You didn't mention what flavor of LR you have, but I'd suggest keeping it at the core of your army and using it to shoot and then counter-charge when something drops nearby or walks close. Ideally the LR crusader over any other variant, as it's weapons are bad ass.
-Sternguard will likely serve best with combi-plasma in this matchup. Deploy in your deployment zone, in cover, and use the 2+ to wound ammo to chip away at the Swarmlord, when he gets close set forward and double-tap the combi-plasmas into them. 10 combi-plasmas is going to average close to 9 wounds on the SL+ friends, which is 3 dead guard and 3 wounds off the SL, easy kill especially if you've managed a couple of wounds before hand.
-For Genestealer cleanup; Tactical bolter fire wrecks them pretty hard. Have them sit in their rhino until the Doom and Zoans are dealt with then hug cover and feed the stealers bolter fire. With Kantor's aura and them assaulting through cover you will cut down 3-4 before they even swing, so if you can manage to kill half of each squad before they make combat you can likely finish them in melee if necessary. Sternguard 2+ to wound bolter rounds wreck them even harder, and when the sternguard are under the Kantor aura they have 3 attacks each, which is pretty solid.
-Use the MM on the Land speeders and Attack bikes to chip away at the Tyranno and/or SL squad. If things are looking tight with stealers closing in on your tacts and sternguard use the Heavy flamers to bake a squad or 2.

Basically, deploy centrally and defensively, Let him come to you, and abuse cover and your vehicles to lessen damage taken, and to take the fight to him when the time is right.

a venerable dread with 2 twin linked Autocannons, or a twin linked Autocannon and an Assault Cannon work wonders against many units, Nids included.

DeathReaper wrote:a venerable dread with 2 twin linked Autocannons, or a twin linked Autocannon and an Assault Cannon work wonders against many units, Nids included.

Gunna disagree on this one. It does nothing to help thin hordes and is largely ineffective against the MCs because they will still be getting their 3+ save. The only thing it's GOOD against is mid-nids like warriors, venomthropes, Zoans and shrike for the instant death, and Hive guard for the fact it's still wounding on 2s and ignoring the save. The thing is, anything that's S8 and AP3 or better does all that AND wrecks MCs. There's little point in taking a unit that's marginally more effective against a small sub-set of nid units when you could take something else that's effective against a broader selection of targets.

That double auto-cannon ven-dread is 205ish points, pretty sure you could take a contemptor mortis dread with 2 Kheres Assault cannons (for 12 assault cannon shots) and a cyclone missile launcher for about that. That's 2 frags and 12 Assault cannon shots on hordes, or 2 kraks and 12 Ass cannon shots on MCs (yay rending!) combined with the 13 front armor makes it an all round more effective shooting platform IMO.

Hell, something as simple as 2 Typhoon speeders is better. Sit at 36" and throw down 2 heavy bolters and 4 frags into infantry or 2 hvy bolters and 4 kraks into MCs.

That is what the rending Assault cannon is for, or the 4 TL S7 shots from each dread.

12 TL S7 shots a turn, if you have 3 dreads, is deadly to MC's with a 3+ save.

And it is 185 for a venerable with 2 TL AC or 1 Assault cannon and one TL AC.

Though a AC/Lascannon sponsoned Predator works well as well, and for only 120 points. 2 lascannons and 1 AC in a HS slot chews through MC's

Carnage43 wrote: pretty sure you could take a contemptor mortis dread with 2 Kheres Assault cannons (for 12 assault cannon shots) and a cyclone missile launcher for about that.

Except that is not in the SM book.

Its a pedro list, so make it a pedro list.

Absolute minimal troops, maximize on sternguard, and once you have 3 units of sternguard maybe think about a 6th scoring unit for higher point games.

Special ammo works great against nids.
Ignore cover special ammo takes care of genestealers in cover.
Wounds on a 2+ will drop tmc as long as they don't have a 2+.
7 combi plasma will drop a tfex, or just about anything to be honest.

Take the middle, so the stealers can't get into assault with anything on the turn they arrive.

Be aggressive from the off and go get the swarmlord and tfex - they struggle to kill land raiders outside of CC so don't get too scared of the TFex. The Crusader always gives me nightmares as a Nid player. Consider extra armour.

Stealers do struggle with Dreads, so you can use that to tie up any brood that gets too close. Heavy flamer can make a mess of them. I'd also set the speeders up for optimum stealer killing - say typhoon and heavy flamer.

The attack bikes I'd give multi-meltas to as the AP1 really makes a mess of MCs. I'm assuming the sternguard have combi-meltas and so same scenario.

Strangely, the least concerning unit as a Nid player is a small CC termie unit. I'd be inclined to lose them for some upgrades above and maybe another dread. Keep the LR, it can then ferry the sternguard after they've shot the Swarmlord up ...

A small unit of scouts infiltrating can create a huge "no stealer infiltrate" bubble in the middle of the board as well

I'd recommend changing load outs on the Land Speeders. Assault cannons are really really bad on them as they pump the cost of the speeder to a whopping 90 pts!

Against almost everything I use Multimelta + Heavy Flamer Speeders, they're 70 points. you can loadout 3 speeders like this for about the same cost as you original 3 speeders.

The flamers are really nice because they'll ignore the stealers cover saves while the Melta's burn TMC's.

The only other load out i think works well is heavy Flamer+ typhoon missles. But i Think that's pricier, i dont remember pts cost for typhoon missles.


Also the 3 5 man tac squads with Razors. If im remembering codex costs off the top of my head correctly that load-out costs you 475 pts right?

for 480 you could instead have:
Two 10 man Tac squads with Flamer and Missile Launchers and 2 Razorbacks with Twin linked Las cannons.
Gives you 5 extra bodies, 2 flamers, 2 Missile launchers & an extra scoring unit at the cost of your Twin linked Assault cannon Razorback.

good trade imo. Combat squad into 4 5-man units 2 with flamers 2 with the ML's Flamer units advance to stall stealer swarms while ML's stay back with the Razors Shooting.

Vulcan marines + null zone librarian. Twin-linked flamers and heavy flamers will melt stealers like so much butter and melta guns will toast zoans once null-zone is up.

Serves 40-50

Tac squads used properly are enough to destroy genestealer armies:

-Stay inside rhino, shoot them with flamers or bolters
-Rhino explodes, stay inside are terrain created by exploded rhino, shoot them with bolters. AP 5 hurts, and forces stealers to stay in cover.
-Let them assault you in cover: Laugh at their lack of grenades and pathetic 5+ armor save.
-Realize you have none of these in your army - you are screwed.

Your list:

-I dont know what it is trying to do, its like a bag of random candies - A kantor list with bikes and speeders, then suddenly an out of place vindicator and lets pretend we didnt see the drop pod sternies
-Razor backs....... sooo out of place in your list
-Dont full steam towards fex with your Land raider. Let him come to you and receive. Fexes are useless until they are in assault.
-You strenguard can dream on trying to take out the lord, DONT.
-This is not working. Fix your list 1st before trying to beat an organized army XD

Yuber wrote:
-Dont full steam towards fex with your Land raider. Let him come to you and receive. Fexes are useless until they are in assault.

Tyrannofex != Carnifex. The tyranno has good guns.
And you must only play against screamer-killer fexes - dual dev fexes is pretty decent on the way in to CC.

Real problem: Incredibly bad SM list.

Pedro: Don't really like him all that much, and you aren't even using him correctly.
HB speeders: Really? you are wasting a FA slot for HEAVY BOLTERS. The crappiest weapon in the SM arsenal unless you are getting it for free/or cheap 2nd weapon you are PAYING for?
HB attack bikes: See above.
Plasma cannon/HF dread: Too expensive and not good. The best dread builds aren't really going to be good against nids other than the random heavy flamer that you might get on a MM dread.
If you are going to min tac with razors at least use the LC/TLPG instead of the TLLC or TLAC. Gives the best balance between volume and AP. Still not a great option for vanilla since other books do it better and cheaper, but at least its viable (kinda).
Single vindicator: So you only have 2 heavy av threats (including LR) on the board, with the vindi having only 1 gun and weak side armor. Good Luck with that.
Single LR: Is this a LRC? Those or LRR are pretty good against nids, but regular LRs aren't. Their cargo are of limited utility since he isn't playing big bugs, they get swarmed by spammed attacks pretty bad and just don't have the volume to kill large units.

The opposing list isn't particularly scary. Just play to the SMs strengths of flexible firepower. This means having ML and flamers. The concept of having both static firepower and mobile fire teams is how you win with vanilla. You can use both together to own the midfield.

Vanilla marines aren't all that good in assault, even the vaunted TH/SS aren't particularly great against many targets. The reason why they are good is they are GREAT against targets SMs have troubles with like MCs, multi wound infantry, and things with power weapons and/or AP weapons. Not taking a nullzone librarian means they are 1/2 as effective as they could be against many of the problem units that you should be taking them for.

Not taking a Librarian means that twice as many powers are going to work against you than should be. The default HQ for vanilla is the librarian for a reason. You get to negate enemy powers a reasonable amount of time, and you get the powerful null zone which negates some of the advantages of trouble units. I honestly wouldn't bother with special characters at the cost of not taking a libby, and I hate wasting points on a 2nd HQ slot unless the rest of the FOC is all full.

Remember that HBs suck and aren't ever worth a slot of their own and are rarely worth the points. Better uses for those slots are on typhoons or HF/MM speeders. If you MUST have HBs, get them on dakka preds (AC/HB tank, its cheap and dirty). If you don't believe HBs are that bad do the math on how many genestealers OUT of cover they kill (2/3*2/3*3=4/3). Then realize how stupid your opponent is if they leave their stealers out of cover. Then realize your opponent probably isn't stupid.

Im not a SM player, so I may be way off base but Ill chime in anyways.


Firstly, I think your focusing WAY to much attention to the Swarmlord, that unit is only 4 guys, and you already said your sending your sternguard to fire on that one, will they kill everything? Probably not, but they WILL cause some damage. The problem that Im seeing, is your basically ignoring the 40 genestealers on the table. And your taking Lascannons against Nids? Are you serious? Lascannons against a Nid horde, is as useful as taking a lascannon against an Ork horde, your wasting your time. Infact your entire army, looks like it was build to take on OTHER space marine armies.

You need to get quantity of shots, not quality of shots. Hey cool, a plasma cannon on a dread! Big deal, you will kill a couple steleres, and against 40, thats not enough. And hammernators? They will be useful against the swormlord, and thats pretty much it. In this case, Id say vanilla termies would probably work better, just because of the amount of shots they get.

When playing against a horde type, you need to get as many bullets in the air as you can first. Because what Im looking at, the biggest threat is arguably the 40 genestealers. Thropes and doom you can simply shoot to pieces easy enough, the TyranoFex only gets 2 shots and itll usually only hit once a turn, and even then it has to go through the hassle of the damage chart. Your playing like my brother did when I first switched to Orks, he kept building lists to fight Space Marines, and I would swarm him something fierce.

KingCracker wrote:Im not a SM player, so I may be way off base but Ill chime in anyways.


Firstly, I think your focusing WAY to much attention to the Swarmlord, that unit is only 4 guys, and you already said your sending your sternguard to fire on that one, will they kill everything? Probably not, but they WILL cause some damage. The problem that Im seeing, is your basically ignoring the 40 genestealers on the table. And your taking Lascannons against Nids? Are you serious? Lascannons against a Nid horde, is as useful as taking a lascannon against an Ork horde, your wasting your time. Infact your entire army, looks like it was build to take on OTHER space marine armies.

You need to get quantity of shots, not quality of shots. Hey cool, a plasma cannon on a dread! Big deal, you will kill a couple steleres, and against 40, thats not enough. And hammernators? They will be useful against the swormlord, and thats pretty much it. In this case, Id say vanilla termies would probably work better, just because of the amount of shots they get.

When playing against a horde type, you need to get as many bullets in the air as you can first. Because what Im looking at, the biggest threat is arguably the 40 genestealers. Thropes and doom you can simply shoot to pieces easy enough, the TyranoFex only gets 2 shots and itll usually only hit once a turn, and even then it has to go through the hassle of the damage chart. Your playing like my brother did when I first switched to Orks, he kept building lists to fight Space Marines, and I would swarm him something fierce.

Initial advice was the opponent would be outflanking with stealers using the +1 to reserves, so T1 and probably T2 the only units he has on the board are the swarmlord and TFex so there is nothing else to deal with. Best tactic for piecemeal deployments is to kill off early the first units on the board so you can then handle the reserves easily. AP1 and AP2 is your friend here. If the LR gets cover as well then a lone Tfex is not a threat - chances of killing it are really remote.

Well that makes a bit of sense then, admittedly I just skimmed his post and obviously missed that part. Im not going to lie, if I were that Nid player, I wouldnt piece meal anything that wasnt in a SPOD. Id play those Nids as aggressively as possible, he would be eatting that blob of stealers ASAP

I don't think tactical Marines are the right answer to dealing with genestealers. Let's assume ten genes charge ten tacs in cover. Tacs strike first - 11 attacks - 6 hit and 3 wound - 2 dead genes. Genes strike back - 24 attacks - 16 hit - 2 rends & 8 wound - 4 dead tacs. Most likely tacs are caught. Next turn genes may wipe them then consolidate and are free to charge again the following turn. It's actually better in this scenario not to have grenades.

-666- wrote:I don't think tactical Marines are the right answer to dealing with genestealers. Let's assume ten genes charge ten tacs in cover. Tacs strike first - 11 attacks - 6 hit and 3 wound - 2 dead genes. Genes strike back - 24 attacks - 16 hit - 2 rends & 8 wound - 4 dead tacs. Most likely tacs are caught. Next turn genes may wipe them then consolidate and are free to charge again the following turn. It's actually better in this scenario not to have grenades.

If a full squad of genestealers is getting to your lines then you are doing it wrong...

tedurur wrote:

-666- wrote:I don't think tactical Marines are the right answer to dealing with genestealers. Let's assume ten genes charge ten tacs in cover. Tacs strike first - 11 attacks - 6 hit and 3 wound - 2 dead genes. Genes strike back - 24 attacks - 16 hit - 2 rends & 8 wound - 4 dead tacs. Most likely tacs are caught. Next turn genes may wipe them then consolidate and are free to charge again the following turn. It's actually better in this scenario not to have grenades.

If a full squad of genestealers is getting to your lines then you are doing it wrong...

They are outflanking, so its possible. Fleet units from the sides have a long range and its not always possible to avoid it. Esp in spear head missions.