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Since I haven't seen us tear this apart yet, and things are always so quiet around here:

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/02/virginia_ultrasound_law_women_who_want_an_abortion_will_be_forcibly_penetrated_for_no_medical_reason.html


I'd really love to hear how the Conservatives that control the state can support state sanctioned rape against
their citizens? And the forced procedure does qualify as a felony based on Virginia law. How is this not Government
overreach we always hear claimed by the right? Oh, that's right, it's abortion....

Edit:
Derp....

alarmingrick wrote:Derp....

Derp indeed.

Alternative headline: "Planned Parenthood rapes women seeking abortions"

This is stupider than calling someone who administers or gets an abortion a murderer.

Scrabb wrote:This is stupider than calling someone who administers or gets an abortion a murderer.

Stupid and criminal, IMHO.

alarmingrick wrote:Stupid and criminal, IMHO.

I was refering to the use of the term rape.

Scrabb wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:Stupid and criminal, IMHO.

I was refering to the use of the term rape.

I was referring to the forced procedure.

Scrabb wrote:This is stupider than calling someone who administers or gets an abortion a murderer.

I don't think its stupider, equal maybe, but not stupider.

I do like how requiring a church affiliated employer to provide birth control is violating the freedom of religion and equals the government overreaching their mandate by requiring medical coverage, and that the GOP continues to decry any sort of mandate because "Government has no business telling people what medical procedures they need to have and have no business telling them what to do".

But while continuing to complain about how the government has no business regulating what occurs between a patient and his/her physician, they continue to mandate medical procedures that serve no medical purpose other than to be an artificial barrier and discomfort and/or shame women into not getting abortions.

My standard reply to the GOP mindset:

Another interesting story.

Apparently Slate is OK with the French government "raping" new mothers (using Ms. Lithwick's standard), but is not OK with the State of Virginia doing so.

The distinction remains unclear.

@d-usa
Great point.
And cartoon.

Weird, I have this feeling that we have gone over this sort of thing before.....

Dreadwinter wrote:Weird, I have this feeling that we have gone over this sort of thing before.....

No, I'm pretty sure a law like this hasn't been around before.

biccat wrote:Another interesting story.

Apparently Slate is OK with the French government "raping" new mothers (using Ms. Lithwick's standard), but is not OK with the State of Virginia doing so.

The distinction remains unclear.

Well, looks like the French scenario is a medical procedure, decided upon between the patient and the provider. They decide what they need, what they want to do, and how to go about it.

The Virginia case is the legislature deciding what medical procedures are required, irregardless of what a trained and licensed physician thinks is needed and what a patient consents to.

But of course you don't want to see the difference there.

alarmingrick wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:Weird, I have this feeling that we have gone over this sort of thing before.....

No, I'm pretty sure a law like this hasn't been around before.

The best part about Rick ignoring me is that it's so much fun to show that he continues to be wrong.

I'm stealing this from Jon Stewart(not a direct quote, but close):

The Reagans 9 scariest words has gone from - "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

to - "I'm from the government and this probe is cold."

d-usa, actually read the second link. There are two ultrasounds that are mandatory during abortion procedures here in Virginia, one before the procedure and one afterward. The one before hand is used to determine location and age of fetus, if the fetus is more developed than is legally allowed to be aborted then there is nothing they can do legally. If the fetus is less developed then it can be legally aborted. Then there is another ultrasound done to make sure the procedure was a success, don't want to leave any excess fetus inside which could cause health problems. Virginia also has a >90% rate of giving antibiotics to patients before surgery which ensures safer and healthier outcomes of surgical procedures unlike North Carolina which hovers in the ~70% area for giving antibiotics before surgical procedures. Again, here in Virginia we have a lot of precautions that are mandatory before performing a medical procedure to ensure the health of the patient and the safety of the procedure.

Virginia; safe abortions, great ham.

About the comment about ending life... are the people at your local slaughterhouse murderers because they are end the life of living beings, murderers? About this procedure... the definition of "rape" is the unwarranted insertion of an object into or stimulation of bodily orifices. Because it is common knowledge that heterosexual males do not enjoy objects being place in the anus, is colonoscopy considered rape?

My personal views

Where I live is an open abortion state meaning getting an abortion is as easy as going to a walk in clinic. I think abortion is wrong, but am I going to take away your liberty to do it, no; can I take way your ability to do it, no. I believe people should have the right and ability to do anything, but I don't believe something like that shouldn't be done in between hair and nails. I believe that (and I'm kicking myself for this) regulation that says that you must have a general practice gynecologist referral to go see a gynecology surgeon (abortionist). The thing with politics that you must ask yourself is if your against something, what are you for?

A colonoscopy and this procedure are apples and oranges.
I'm for freedom of choice.

alarmingrick wrote:A colonoscopy and this procedure are apples and oranges.
I'm for freedom of choice.

Actually they are vary similar if you want an abortion you're going to have to have (oh how do I say this nicely) a game of tickle me elmo. If you want you want a cancer screening... well you get the idea.

Oh lookie, some sheepfethers have yet again tried to put as many barriers between women and abortions as possible. It's almost as if they don't like abortion or something.

The question boils down to this:

What is the current Standard of Care according to the American Medical Association, American College of Surgeons, and whatever other organizations are in charge of regularing medicine and setting standards?

Determining what procedures are "medically necesarry" should never be left up to a political body without medical training who are ruling based on an agenda, and not based on evidence based care.

Melissia wrote:Oh lookie, some sheepfethers have yet again tried to put as many barriers between women and abortions as possible. It's almost as if they don't like abortion or something.

You are still throwing up this argument despite people(myself mainly) attempting to explain to you why it is a good idea to get an ultrasound before an abortion in a previous thread?

d-usa wrote:The question boils down to this:

What is the current Standard of Care according to the American Medical Association, American College of Surgeons, and whatever other organizations are in charge of regularing medicine and setting standards?

Determining what procedures are "medically necesarry" should never be left up to a political body without medical training who are ruling based on an agenda, and not based on evidence based care.

Goddamn +1 sir

Dreadwinter wrote:

Melissia wrote:Oh lookie, some sheepfethers have yet again tried to put as many barriers between women and abortions as possible. It's almost as if they don't like abortion or something.

You are still throwing up this argument despite people(myself mainly) attempting to explain to you why it is a good idea to get an ultrasound before an abortion in a previous thread?

Is it medically necesarry? Is it the standard of care according to evidenced based practive of medicine? It is a good idea to get an ultrasound before an abortion according to whom?

Which should be up to the doctors, not the extremist nutjobs in the various state congresses.

I think I should start pushing for psychiatric examinations before anyone can legally buy guns, exchange ownership of guns, or purchase a license to use guns (such as concealed carry). One can argue that it, also, is a good idea.

I'm sure that'd go over greatly with these "people" who care SOOOOO much about the health of the average person.

alarmingrick wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:Weird, I have this feeling that we have gone over this sort of thing before.....

No, I'm pretty sure a law like this hasn't been around before.

As an aside, we did indeed go over this more-or-less recently; Texas passed a similar law.

------


You know, I just typed out a really, really long post with quotes from various conservative politicians about how one of the worst things about Obamacare was how it had unelected bureaucrats making medical decisions for people instead of the government, but you know what, I just deleted it. It's a huge waste of time, as is nearly ever one of these debates. There is nothing I can say that the cartoon already posted does't say about the rampant, unswerving hypocriticality (is that a word) of the sorts of politicians who support these.

How the hell is an ultrasound rape? HOW. EATING IS LIKE RAPING YOUR MOUTH WITH A SPOON! GOING TO THE BATHROOM IS RAPING A TOILET WITH POOP!

Hate to tell ya, when you're getting an abortion, chances are that's not the only thing going up there!

biccat wrote:Another interesting story.

Apparently Slate is OK with the French government "raping" new mothers (using Ms. Lithwick's standard), but is not OK with the State of Virginia doing so.

The distinction remains unclear.

The distinction is between an elective procedure carried out for clinical reasons and a non-elective one carried out for political reasons.

biccat wrote:Another interesting story.

Apparently Slate is OK with the French government "raping" new mothers (using Ms. Lithwick's standard), but is not OK with the State of Virginia doing so.

The distinction remains unclear.

Here is an intrusive, mandatory process with no medical relevance to abortion, that the state of Virginia is only making mandatory because it doesn't like abortions and hopes you might not have one because of this.

Against

Here is an elective procedure that intrusive, but that we offer for free, if you want it, as it believed that it might help reduce the negative effects of giving birth.



And biccat can't tell the difference between these two things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

broodstar wrote:Actually they are vary similar if you want an abortion you're going to have to have (oh how do I say this nicely) a game of tickle me elmo. If you want you want a cancer screening... well you get the idea.

Except the colonoscopy is a medically necessary procedure, whereas abortions do not require this procedure. It is only being mandated because it is hoped it will discourage abortions.

I'd wonder how the people who defend this here would feel about a law that mandated a colonoscopy before a prescription could be written for Viagra.

Dakka's OT is always a hoot during election season.