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d-usa wrote:The question boils down to this:

What is the current Standard of Care according to the American Medical Association, American College of Surgeons, and whatever other organizations are in charge of regularing medicine and setting standards?

Determining what procedures are "medically necesarry" should never be left up to a political body without medical training who are ruling based on an agenda, and not based on evidence based care.

Whoa.

Whoa whoa whoa.

American Medical Association? American College of Surgeons? What are you, some sort of communist? Those organizations are staffed by people who got medical degrees. That means they went to college. That means they've been indoctrinated by the liberal establishment and sworn secret oaths to the Supreme Soviet.

We don't need doctors telling us what is and isn't medically necessary, we need career conservative politicians. They're the only ones qualified.

Does Planned Parenthood require a transvaginal ultrasound or a transabdominal ultrasound currently? The article Biccat linked doesn't tell us which kind is currently required.

d-usa wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Murder is defined by law, actually.

Its also defined by death.


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Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Murder is defined by law, actually.

And abortion aint' it.

be careful what you wish for. Give medical science 20 years and under the current SCOTUS definition of "viability" it will be.

One thing even the biggest pro-abortion folks need to accept is that the age of viability is earlier now than in the past. That is one factor that can't be ignored IMO.

Very little. While 21 week foetuses have a higher chance of survival thanks to modern medicine, their prognosis is still very poor.

One thing even the biggest anti-abortion folks need to accept is that the great majority of abortions happen in the first 12 weeks anyway.

halonachos wrote:Virginia; safe abortions, great ham.

Exactly, if this constitutes rape then middle aged men better start suing their doctors:



The only topic of interest raised in this thread is, 'If people think this constitutes rape where is the education system going wrong?'

I know medicine and science even philosophy has a definition of life. I think that before the issue of abortion is settled a social definition of life will have to be made.

Does life begin with conception
Does life begin with the first heartbeat
Does life begin with the development of the brain
Does life begin when the mother is showing
Does life begin at birth

Society as a whole needs to define exactly when it recognizes a living being. Without that hard definition other law such as murder can really come into play.

There are animals that even scientist are debating weather it is alive; take the virus, it is just a protein shell filled we genetic information so it doesn't fit the scientific definition of life but it exists and reproduces.




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Another thing that has to be asked (and this question goes all the way back to the Greek empire) what is the role of government in this issue?

Of course, I'm not above stating that I am probably having a visceral reaction to this, because my wife and I almost had to make such a terrible choice between her life or our babies life. Thankfully, things worked out.

I think this has a lot of elements, more than just Abortion. Look at what conservative commentator Dana Loesch had to say:

“Progressives are trying to say, that it’s rape and so on and so forth…They had no problem having similar to a trans-vaginal procedure when they engaged in the act that resulted in their pregnancy.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uYQgJ4OK8HI

I mean. Wow. I don't even want to think of the implications of that statement.

Ah yes, "pro-abortion", because you don't have a real argument to stand on so you just demonize the opposition.

MIght as start calling all "pro-lifers" something then. How about "misogynistic bastards"?

Just because someone is pro-choice doesn't make them pro-abortion. Abortion is a traumatic thing, and it isn't the abortion that is supported but the choice to have one. You know, just like how having a "pro-life" stance doesn't meanthat you're a misogynistic gakker.

Stormrider wrote:Don't like the law? Then move.

"If you don't like it, fix it" is a less pathetic attitude.

Melissia wrote:Ah yes, "pro-abortion", because you don't have a real argument to stand on so you just demonize the opposition.

MIght as start calling all "pro-lifers" something then. How about "misogynistic bastards"?

Just because someone is pro-choice doesn't make them pro-abortion. Abortion is a traumatic thing, and it isn't the abortion that is supported but the choice to have one.

The crux of the argument.
Essentially, it comes down to trusting people to make their own decisions, and respecting their right to do so regardless of the outcome.

Surtur wrote:How the hell is an ultrasound rape? HOW. EATING IS LIKE RAPING YOUR MOUTH WITH A SPOON! GOING TO THE BATHROOM IS RAPING A TOILET WITH POOP!

Hate to tell ya, when you're getting an abortion, chances are that's not the only thing going up there!

Totally sigged!

Aren't these guys democratically elected? Vote them out, repeal the law.

Melissia wrote:Ah yes, "pro-abortion", because you don't have a real argument to stand on so you just demonize the opposition.

Its a fair characterization. I wouldn't object to being called pro-abortion.

Melissia wrote:
Just because someone is pro-choice doesn't make them pro-abortion. Abortion is a traumatic thing, and it isn't the abortion that is supported but the choice to have one.

True.

I'd go for "Misogynistic Bastards" if they'd go for "Pro-Baby Killing Via Vacuum Cleaner".

Now, now. If pro-lifers get to call abortion murder then it's only fair that pro-choicers get to call ultrasound rape.

Manchu wrote:Now, now. If pro-lifers get to call abortion murder then it's only fair that pro-choicers get to call ultrasound rape.

Sounds fair.

I'm glad that's settled. Now let's decide how to sensationalize root canals!

Tooth porn?

broodstar wrote:I know medicine and science even philosophy has a definition of life. I think that before the issue of abortion is settled a social definition of life will have to be made.

Does life begin with conception
Does life begin with the first heartbeat
Does life begin with the development of the brain
Does life begin when the mother is showing
Does life begin at birth

Society as a whole needs to define exactly when it recognizes a living being. Without that hard definition other law such as murder can really come into play.

An excellent proposition.

However, society doesn't get to decide when life begins, that issue has been removed from popular referendum by the Supreme Court.

And before anyone says that the Supreme Court is part of society's decision - please point out in which case the Supreme Court decided life begins. The right of abortion may extend beyond the beginning of life, and the Court apparently doesn't have a problem with this.

Easy E wrote:I mean. Wow. I don't even want to think of the implications of that statement.

Ask Andrea Dworkin: "Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies."

Manchu wrote:Now, now. If pro-lifers get to call abortion murder then it's only fair that pro-choicers get to call ultrasound rape.

Given the things that pro-lifers are called on a regular basis, this is actually a step up. Nobody knows how to hate and degrade like leftists.

Manchu wrote:I'm glad that's settled. Now let's decide how to sensationalize root canals gum rape!

How's that?

biccat wrote: Nobody knows how to hate and degrade like leftists.

And only the Sith deal in absolutes, right?

Both sides are just as guilty of poopflinging as the other.

Not that it matters much, but VA is a commonwealth, not a state.

juraigamer wrote:Not that it matters much, but VA is a commonwealth, not a state.

In this situation, is there a functional difference? Honest question.

biccat wrote:
However, society doesn't get to decide when life begins, that issue has been removed from popular referendum by the Supreme Court.

Amendment process.

Also, law is not morality, and such.

biccat wrote:
Given the things that pro-lifers are called on a regular basis, this is actually a step up. Nobody knows how to hate and degrade like leftists.

So, those signs that read "Murderer" and "Devil-Spawn" I walked my ex past were indicative of conservative love?

I'm not arguing that American liberals don't hate people, they do an with great fervor, but its not unique to them.

juraigamer wrote:Not that it matters much, but VA is a commonwealth, not a state.

Er...yea its still a state though.

biccat wrote:Nobody knows how to hate and degrade like leftists.

Is calling someone a murderer any better than calling someone else a rapist? Neither accounts for much less excuses the other.

Ouze wrote:I'd wonder how the people who defend this here would feel about a law that mandated a colonoscopy before a prescription could be written for Viagra.

They aren't??!?!

Ah, crap!

dogma wrote:So, those signs that read "Murderer" and "Devil-Spawn" I walked my ex past were indicative of conservative love?

Wow. Believe it or not, I actually had a decent amount of respect for you before this comment.

dogma wrote:I'm not arguing that American liberals don't hate people, they do an with great fervor, but its not unique to them.

Which is consistent with what I said.

Manchu wrote:Is calling someone a murderer any better than calling someone else a rapist?

Yes. Significantly better.

So... why do they need to prove that they're pregnant? What will an ultrasound prove during the first 12 weeks?

Virginia has always been crazy though.

biccat wrote:
Wow. Believe it or not, I actually had a decent amount of respect for you before this comment.

Did you miss the many comments I've made about being pro-choice, and having paid for several abortions?

biccat wrote:
Which is consistent with what I said.

If no one knows how to hate like leftists, one assumes that the argument being made is qualitative, and that the point is that leftists hate more than non-leftisits; which generally means conservatives, being people on the right by convention.

Edit: grammar

Samus_aran115 wrote:So... why do they need to prove that they're pregnant? What will an ultrasound prove during the first 12 weeks?

Virginia has always been crazy though.

No, we haven't.

We just voted in a governor who might as well be the Virginian Santorum. Except now he's backing off from his unconditional support of this bill. He wants to be Romney's veep, after all.

Samus_aran115 wrote:So... why do they need to prove that they're pregnant? What will an ultrasound prove during the first 12 weeks?

Virginia has always been crazy though.

A lot of things can be looked at with ultrasound, I had my heart looked at with ultrasound.