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I liked the idea of a fast short ranged tank hunter with DE who love fire and bringing about blazing fire death. Something about getting close enough to hear the screams of the crew of vehicles when they are burned alive seemed to appeal to me. I think one of the following would be a nice addition.

FA choice
Pyrolancer
105pts
AV 11 11 10
Fast Skimmer Open Topped
Aerial Assault
Night Vision
Tank Hunters
Deep Strike
Three Heat Lances
Transport Capacity 5 models
Ravager Hull




FA choice
Kindler
80pts
AV 10 10 10
Squadron 1-3
Fast Skimmer Open Topped
Aerial Assault
Night Vision
Flicker Field
Two Twin Linked Heat Lances
The Heat lances beam can be fire in a dispersal mode in which case they fire as a flamer.
Venom Hull


constructive criticism welcome

So you want to give a Venom 3 Heat Lances, making it almost as good as a Ravager for 10pts less?

Valkyrie wrote:So you want to give a Venom 3 Heat Lances, making it almost as good as a Ravager for 10pts less?

One of the options is a Venom with 2 heat lances. One is a Ravager with 3 heat lances that can carry 5 models.

Heat Lances are not nearly as good as dark lances. Even more so on a vehicle.

What about Haywire Blasters? Might make for an interesting anti-vehicle option...

If you can find a weapon that is heavy enough, they might be useful as attack fighter-type ships in their own right. But I'm no expert, and I have never played the game, so can't be certain. In any case, it is always a good idea to throw something that your opponent isn't prepared for. It gives you the initiative, and the advantage of having influence over them. But, I've not played, so my ideas might be utter rubbish.

Like it. I think a venom hull that works like vyper would be cool! So it could have all the big guns in the DE codex. I personally think heat lances are better than dark lances. Mind I like scrouges where getting within 9" of a leman russes front armour is quite easy, then it pops!!!

I've been experimenting with metallics with my vehicles. When I brought my Venom to work, one guy - a sarcastic, up his own backside lose - started singing the Star Wars theme. This got me thinking... If they had heavier artillery, you could field a number like X-Wings or something. Also, those fighters have different types of weapons. So, maybe a Heat Lance/Haywire Blaster combo might be an idea? And could the Splinter turret be replaced with a Disintegrator?

Just throwing these into the pot, hope they help...

Cameron Baum wrote:What about Haywire Blasters? Might make for an interesting anti-vehicle option...

If you can find a weapon that is heavy enough, they might be useful as attack fighter-type ships in their own right. But I'm no expert, and I have never played the game, so can't be certain. In any case, it is always a good idea to throw something that your opponent isn't prepared for. It gives you the initiative, and the advantage of having influence over them. But, I've not played, so my ideas might be utter rubbish.

yeah I suppose any of those options could be slightly more interesting if you swap out the heat lances for haywire blasters for free. The thing is I dont think with haywire blasters, even 3 of them your going to get too many people taking them. Stunlocking on does so much, is it worth 80-100 points on a fragile paper plane?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seanaust wrote:Like it. I think a venom hull that works like vyper would be cool! So it could have all the big guns in the DE codex. I personally think heat lances are better than dark lances. Mind I like scrouges where getting within 9" of a leman russes front armour is quite easy, then it pops!!!

I dont think heat lances are nearly as good as dark lances. you have to get really really close to use them and on a paper airplane you are going to get killed

Dark Lances are -1strength -12" range lascannons. with the lance effect, better against AV14
Heat lances are -2 strength -6" range multimeltas. with the lance effect, never better
are multimeltas better than lascannons? only because they cost less.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cameron Baum wrote:I've been experimenting with metallics with my vehicles. When I brought my Venom to work, one guy - a sarcastic, up his own backside lose - started singing the Star Wars theme. This got me thinking... If they had heavier artillery, you could field a number like X-Wings or something. Also, those fighters have different types of weapons. So, maybe a Heat Lance/Haywire Blaster combo might be an idea? And could the Splinter turret be replaced with a Disintegrator?

Just throwing these into the pot, hope they help...

the splinter turret, i assume you mean splinter cannon 'could' become a disitigrator but i think it doesnt jive with the fluff. splinter weapons are light weight and dont require much power. disintigrators are only availble on heavy vehicles where dark lances can be taken. also disitigrators are going to be more expensive than splinter cannons.

I would make them haywire blasters as standard, with the option to upgrade to heat lances, blasters or splinter cannons.

I'd also say remove deepstrike and tank hunters from the pyrolancer equiv, as is it's currently superior to the ravager, while it has shorter range, costing the same with the ability to drop in anywhere with +2 to damage rolls makes it a much more effective killer.

Exergy wrote:

Cameron Baum wrote:What about Haywire Blasters? Might make for an interesting anti-vehicle option...

If you can find a weapon that is heavy enough, they might be useful as attack fighter-type ships in their own right. But I'm no expert, and I have never played the game, so can't be certain. In any case, it is always a good idea to throw something that your opponent isn't prepared for. It gives you the initiative, and the advantage of having influence over them. But, I've not played, so my ideas might be utter rubbish.

yeah I suppose any of those options could be slightly more interesting if you swap out the heat lances for haywire blasters for free. The thing is I dont think with haywire blasters, even 3 of them your going to get too many people taking them. Stunlocking on does so much, is it worth 80-100 points on a fragile paper plane?

If I am right, then the nearest SF comparison I can make would be in Star Wars again. Fighters have laser cannons, but some also have ion cannons. If you've played the flight simulator games, you know how bad ion cannons are. You get hit by them, they start to knock out systems. You can be completely helpless and paralysed, desperate to get back into action, but the auto repair is having to go through a long list of downed systems. It takes literally minutes to get the ship to start to come back to life again.

Haywires can knock out big tanks and stuff, and thus allow you to damage more of the opponents army. Haywires can be useful in buying you time in defeating the enemy, or completing an objective. Specialised units are always fielded in an army. However, you could always use a Reaper, with more success, I guess...

Exergy wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seanaust wrote:Like it. I think a venom hull that works like vyper would be cool! So it could have all the big guns in the DE codex. I personally think heat lances are better than dark lances. Mind I like scrouges where getting within 9" of a leman russes front armour is quite easy, then it pops!!!

I dont think heat lances are nearly as good as dark lances. you have to get really really close to use them and on a paper airplane you are going to get killed

Dark Lances are -1strength -12" range lascannons. with the lance effect, better against AV14
Heat lances are -2 strength -6" range multimeltas. with the lance effect, never better. are multimeltas better than lascannons? only because they cost less.

Okay, so what weapon do you think is best? Since Heat Lances and Dark Lances appear to not go down well with you...

Exergy wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cameron Baum wrote:I've been experimenting with metallics with my vehicles. When I brought my Venom to work, one guy - a sarcastic, up his own backside loser - started singing the Star Wars theme. This got me thinking... If they had heavier artillery, you could field a number like X-Wings or something. Also, those fighters have different types of weapons. So, maybe a Heat Lance/Haywire Blaster combo might be an idea? And could the Splinter turret be replaced with a Disintegrator?

Just throwing these into the pot, hope they help...

the splinter turret, i assume you mean splinter cannon 'could' become a disitigrator but i think it doesnt jive with the fluff. splinter weapons are light weight and dont require much power. disintigrators are only availble on heavy vehicles where dark lances can be taken. also disitigrators are going to be more expensive than splinter cannons.

Okay, it doesn't jive with the fluff. Thus... what is the point of this thread? What do you want you Venom to do? And what is the reasoning? Until you've got that clear, I doubt you can get very far, and all advice will be worthless...

Cameron Baum wrote:
If I am right, then the nearest SF comparison I can make would be in Star Wars again. Fighters have laser cannons, but some also have ion cannons. If you've played the flight simulator games, you know how bad ion cannons are. You get hit by them, they start to knock out systems. You can be completely helpless and paralysed, desperate to get back into action, but the auto repair is having to go through a long list of downed systems. It takes literally minutes to get the ship to start to come back to life again.

Haywires can knock out big tanks and stuff, and thus allow you to damage more of the opponents army. Haywires can be useful in buying you time in defeating the enemy, or completing an objective. Specialised units are always fielded in an army. However, you could always use a Reaper, with more success, I guess...

Yup Haywires are Ion cannons. In most set ups I understand though you get more Ion than you do direct damage. If the haywire blaster was assaut 2 or range 36" I would like it a lot more. As is now I dont see it being a good choice compared to heat lances or blasters.

Cameron Baum wrote:
Okay, so what weapon do you think is best? Since Heat Lances and Dark Lances appear to not go down well with you...

In most cases i think DL are much better. They have 4 times the effective range, twice the maximum range and can overkill things T4 models. Heat lances are only better inside 9" and you are only likely going to get 1 shot at that range, maybe 2 if your opponent spreads his units out too far.

Cameron Baum wrote:
Okay, it doesn't jive with the fluff. Thus... what is the point of this thread? What do you want you Venom to do? And what is the reasoning? Until you've got that clear, I doubt you can get very far, and all advice will be worthless...

fluff was the wrong word, I am sorry. I just meant to say that i felt that based on the feel of the book, where disintrigrators are only on very heavy platforms where as splinter cannons are availible everywhere. I dont know if for example the twinlinked splinter rifles on the razorwing and venom that can be upgraded to splinter cannons should also be able to be upgraded to disitigrators. It doesnt feel right to me but I am not against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ovion wrote:I would make them haywire blasters as standard, with the option to upgrade to heat lances, blasters or splinter cannons.

I'd also say remove deepstrike and tank hunters from the pyrolancer equiv, as is it's currently superior to the ravager, while it has shorter range, costing the same with the ability to drop in anywhere with +2 to damage rolls makes it a much more effective killer.

I dont like the idea of giving it blasters, as then it is just a Ravager with lower range. Also by the pricing in the dex I think that blasters are more expensive than heat lances. Also the fluff I want to create is DE who love to kill tanks, specifically with fire.

So I would have Heat Lances standard with ability to swap out for haywire blasters for free.

I guess you are right. I think having Deep Strike as an upgrade option would be nice, but remove it from standard. The tank hunters thing is probably too much so remove that, although it would be nice with haywire blasters.

I get what you are saying. However... I still think that the Disintegrator is an option for the venom. Just make is more a mini cannon, rather than a full one. The same could apply to the Dark Lance, thinking about it. Not as powerful, but then can be fielded logically.

The Venom needs to possibly field some counter measures, to make it better defended. The DE equivalent of Chaff, perhaps. that can also harm enemy troops in the process?

This is something I hate about GW. They make things too restrictive, and too limited. Makes a pain when you truly want to make a more interesting item in the army list...

Assuming they get access to the standard vehicle wargear, then they get envenomed blades and grisly trophies etc.

Dark Lances and Dissies can be carried by troops. (or at least the lances... I forget if the Disintegrator is only on troops in my extended codex or not)

Dark Lances can, and Heat Lances. So can Splinter Cannons. Disintegrators can't, however, so it must be in your extended stuff.

What about giving the Venom a Hexcannon? The cannon version of a Hexrifle? Should be possible to field, and would be useful against Orks and Tyrannids...

Must be Extended only. Makes sense though

And a Hex Cannon would be fun... not that nids need the DE to be any better at killing them. xD

Well, they've just released one that's carrying a large, long range cannon... That qualifies for making a better range of weapons, in my book.

I'll see what other mental weapons I can come up with...

The big nid with the gun is the Terrorfex. The gun is a rupture cannon - bs 3, str 10, I think ap4, heavy 2. It also costs 250-300pts.

I'm going to put the Hex Cannon into my extended dex. A 48" hex rifle that's assault 3 / heavy 4 for... 40pts? 1 for every 5 waerloga.

Ovion wrote:The big nid with the gun is the Terrorfex. The gun is a rupture cannon - bs 3, str 10, I think ap4, heavy 2. It also costs 250-300pts.

I'm going to put the Hex Cannon into my extended dex. A 48" hex rifle that's assault 3 / heavy 4 for... 40pts? 1 for every 5 waerloga.

Well, if they cost that much, I can't see too many Terrorfexes in the mix much... And from what you're saying, the Tyrannids are not the toughest army out there, either...

Sounds cool that I've managed to help you out with your Fandex; I'm really getting interested in what it'll be like.

One thought about Venoms i have just had... Do they have to carry people? What about barrel-like bombs, that can be pushed off at the last moment, to.... I know, they're Splinter Bombs. have them in the thick of action, behind the enemy lines, and they find a Splinter Bomb next to them. Might prove damaging...

Venoms are dedicated transports, so while they don't have to have troops in them they can't just be taken.

And yeah - that kit will primarily be used for Tervigons, with a few T.Fexes here and there.
Personally I'll be running 2 T.Fexes when I get round to making my nids, but I'm going a Nidzilla style route with 1-2 Tyrants, 2+ squads of warriors, 2-3 Carnifexes and 2 T.Fexes. Possibly one of those giant gribbles on the oval base.

And Dark Eldar are possibly nids hardest match.
DE excel at obliterating anything with a toughness value. They don't give a diddly about your toughness or how many wound you have - 50-250 poison shots a turn + lances will wreck it.
DE struggle with mid to heavy armour, and vehicle spam, but of course Nids have nothing with an AV value, and are one of the few armies with a low enough save that splinter weapons AP5 actually does something.

Ovion wrote:Venoms are dedicated transports, so while they don't have to have troops in them they can't just be taken.

What about an adapted Venom? Slap on a couple of keelblades or something, and call it... I dunno, a Vonem... Then you can field something that is more akin to the Eldar's Vyper. More geared up for shooting the socks off of people...

Ovion wrote:
And yeah - that kit will primarily be used for Tervigons, with a few T.Fexes here and there.
Personally I'll be running 2 T.Fexes when I get round to making my nids, but I'm going a Nidzilla style route with 1-2 Tyrants, 2+ squads of warriors, 2-3 Carnifexes and 2 T.Fexes. Possibly one of those giant gribbles on the oval base.

With you declaring that, you're tempting me to create the conversion I've had in mind for months, centred around a Reaper. I'm trying to come up with something a little more potent than your average Ravager...

Ovion wrote:
And Dark Eldar are possibly nids hardest match.
DE excel at obliterating anything with a toughness value. They don't give a diddly about your toughness or how many wound you have - 50-250 poison shots a turn + lances will wreck it.
DE struggle with mid to heavy armour, and vehicle spam, but of course Nids have nothing with an AV value, and are one of the few armies with a low enough save that splinter weapons AP5 actually does something.

Right... let me try and work out what you've just said... DE slice through the critters army, like a warm knife through butter. All the weapons serve to shred infantry, and the Tyrannids have living tanks, so are vulnerable. And as they are not Vehicles, they have no armour value (obviously!) So are basically target practice for the DE. And because they don't wear clothes, defensive armour, almost all Splinter Weaponry smacks them hard. And the DE have speed and agility to add to the mix... So the Tyrannids are in a losing position to start with. Am I right? And vehicle spam is having something like 20 Lehman Russ tanks at the same time... correct?

Cameron Baum wrote:

Ovion wrote:Venoms are dedicated transports, so while they don't have to have troops in them they can't just be taken.

What about an adapted Venom? Slap on a couple of keelblades or something, and call it... I dunno, a Vonem... Then you can field something that is more akin to the Eldar's Vyper. More geared up for shooting the socks off of people...

This is basically what Exergys Kindler is, and I intend to include it, or at least something similar in my extended codex. (assuming that's ok with Exergy )
It'll be more versatile, starting with Haywire Blasters with upgrade options.

Cameron Baum wrote:

Ovion wrote:
And Dark Eldar are possibly nids hardest match.
DE excel at obliterating anything with a toughness value. They don't give a diddly about your toughness or how many wound you have - 50-250 poison shots a turn + lances will wreck it.
DE struggle with mid to heavy armour, and vehicle spam, but of course Nids have nothing with an AV value, and are one of the few armies with a low enough save that splinter weapons AP5 actually does something.

Right... let me try and work out what you've just said... DE slice through the critters army, like a warm knife through butter. All the weapons serve to shred infantry, and the Tyrannids have living tanks, so are vulnerable. And as they are not Vehicles, they have no armour value (obviously!) So are basically target practice for the DE. And because they don't wear clothes, defensive armour, almost all Splinter Weaponry smacks them hard. And the DE have speed and agility to add to the mix... So the Tyrannids are in a losing position to start with. Am I right? And vehicle spam is having something like 20 Lehman Russ tanks at the same time... correct?

Yup, I remember playing a game against a nid player not long ago.
He had 3 fexes, 2 tyrants, 3 warriors, about 30 stealers and another 30 or so gaunts, with a few zoanthropes and a lictor or something.
I had my standard list - 3 venoms, 5 raiders, 3 squads of 3 grotesques, 2 squads 10 wracks, 3 squads of 3 wracks, 2 talos and a razorwing.
All the stealers, 75% of the gaunts, a fex, the thropes - all evaporated turn 1. he lost all but 1 fex and the lictor turn 2, at which point we called it.

It didn't help that he hadn't come across DE before and so pretty much ran across open ground to get to me, but yeah - hot knife meet butter.

And vehicle spam is like.. 4+ transports with 2+ tanks, or pretty much any list with 6+ vehicles - a mech list.

Ovion wrote:

Cameron Baum wrote:

Ovion wrote:Venoms are dedicated transports, so while they don't have to have troops in them they can't just be taken.

What about an adapted Venom? Slap on a couple of keelblades or something, and call it... I dunno, a Vonem... Then you can field something that is more akin to the Eldar's Vyper. More geared up for shooting the socks off of people...

This is basically what Exergys Kindler is, and I intend to include it, or at least something similar in my extended codex. (assuming that's ok with Exergy )
It'll be more versatile, starting with Haywire Blasters with upgrade options.

As a small point of interest, where the envenomed blades/chain snares go, you can have other weapons. It is the same design. So, you can have a central weapon, and one under each engine. So, there are a world of options there, in my opinion...

Ovion wrote:

Cameron Baum wrote:

Ovion wrote:
And Dark Eldar are possibly nids hardest match.
DE excel at obliterating anything with a toughness value. They don't give a diddly about your toughness or how many wound you have - 50-250 poison shots a turn + lances will wreck it.
DE struggle with mid to heavy armour, and vehicle spam, but of course Nids have nothing with an AV value, and are one of the few armies with a low enough save that splinter weapons AP5 actually does something.

Right... let me try and work out what you've just said... DE slice through the critters army, like a warm knife through butter. All the weapons serve to shred infantry, and the Tyrannids have living tanks, so are vulnerable. And as they are not Vehicles, they have no armour value (obviously!) So are basically target practice for the DE. And because they don't wear clothes, defensive armour, almost all Splinter Weaponry smacks them hard. And the DE have speed and agility to add to the mix... So the Tyrannids are in a losing position to start with. Am I right? And vehicle spam is having something like 20 Lehman Russ tanks at the same time... correct?

Yup, I remember playing a game against a nid player not long ago.
He had 3 fexes, 2 tyrants, 3 warriors, about 30 stealers and another 30 or so gaunts, with a few zoanthropes and a lictor or something.
I had my standard list - 3 venoms, 5 raiders, 3 squads of 3 grotesques, 2 squads 10 wracks, 3 squads of 3 wracks, 2 talos and a razorwing.
All the stealers, 75% of the gaunts, a fex, the thropes - all evaporated turn 1. he lost all but 1 fex and the lictor turn 2, at which point we called it.

It didn't help that he hadn't come across DE before and so pretty much ran across open ground to get to me, but yeah - hot knife meet butter.

And vehicle spam is like.. 4+ transports with 2+ tanks, or pretty much any list with 6+ vehicles - a mech list.

Sounds like it was deeply painful for the "nid" player. And a very different list you use, as well. And Vehicle spam with a load of Ravagers... that would probably prove interesting for opponents...

Cameron Baum wrote:I get what you are saying. However... I still think that the Disintegrator is an option for the venom. Just make is more a mini cannon, rather than a full one. The same could apply to the Dark Lance, thinking about it. Not as powerful, but then can be fielded logically.

The Venom needs to possibly field some counter measures, to make it better defended. The DE equivalent of Chaff, perhaps. that can also harm enemy troops in the process?

This is something I hate about GW. They make things too restrictive, and too limited. Makes a pain when you truly want to make a more interesting item in the army list...

I had in my vehicle upgrades a new upgrade that was a kind of evasion device although in my fluff it was an electronically achieved result. It granted a 2+ cover save on the first hit suffered in a phase. After that it had no use. It was 20-25 points and 0-1 per army


I dont like the DE list for versitility either. What if I want a succubus on a jetbike? What is I want my acothyst to carry a power weapon? What if I want my hextrix to carry a shadowfield?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ovion wrote:
This is basically what Exergys Kindler is, and I intend to include it, or at least something similar in my extended codex. (assuming that's ok with Exergy )
It'll be more versatile, starting with Haywire Blasters with upgrade options.

I support attempts to steal my ideas

Ovion wrote:
And Dark Eldar are possibly nids hardest match.
DE excel at obliterating anything with a toughness value. They don't give a diddly about your toughness or how many wound you have - 50-250 poison shots a turn + lances will wreck it.
DE struggle with mid to heavy armour, and vehicle spam, but of course Nids have nothing with an AV value, and are one of the few armies with a low enough save that splinter weapons AP5 actually does something.

the nids dex does need some reworking in the light of DE, GK, and the new armored meta. I think more of the larger bugs getting FNP and EW might help things in simple terms.

I did have the idea of a reflective armour, that reflects away 90% of the damage of a hit. Might seem incredible, but it soon adds up in a battle. Round two's 100% is Round One's 90%, and so on. Might make the ships more durable, but probably not by much.

Wonder if this is practical at all?

I'll answer properly when I've had some sleep...

Reflective armour wouldn't be easy to do without being broken.
Maybe making it a -1 on the vehicle damage table (basically negating open topped) for 5-10pts.

And I think the easiest 'fix' for 'nids weakness to DE is to give them a mild resistance to poison. Soemthing like -1 to poison attacks (so splinter weapons are effectively Poisoned (5+) instead of (4+). I feel this would increase the nid survivability rate just enough to give them a decent fighting chance.

Well, it was worth the suggestion, I feel.

The real question, I guess, is whether there is a way to better protect DE from other armies...

DE Don't really need much in the way of extra protection.
Their fraility is what balances their firepower + ability to hit so hard.

OR, if you want a bit more durability, then run a Coven, but that loses a good chunk of the ranged power.

Coven? As in Wyches? How are they more durable?

I also wonder if we can create new weaponry for the Venom...

Dark Eldar Kabals.
Wych Cults.
Haemonculi Covens.

Gotcha.

What about Mandrakes and Incubi? What use could they be?

Both Mandrakes and Incubi, as well as Hellions, Scourges (and a few others) are technically mercenary forces within the Dark Eldar.