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Since I love that Jotum model...please let me know what you think of this:

PANOCEANIA
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regs: 10/Irrs: 0):

2x NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife (41 | 1.5)
MOV:4-2 CC:14 BS:13 PH:12 WIP:13 ARM:3 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
CH: Mimetism, Aquatic Terrain | Mountain Terrain | Zero-G, Multispectral Visor L2

3x FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (10)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube

FUSILIER HMG / Pistol, Knife (19 | 1)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube

JOTUM Lieutenant MULTI HMG, Heavy Grenade Launcher / (110 | 2)
MOV:6-4 CC:18 BS:15 PH:17 WIP:13 ARM:10 BTS:-9 STR:3
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Remote Presence
ECM, Mountain Terrain, Lieutenant

MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife (15)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:-3 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Engineer

3x PALBOT Electric Pulse (3)
MOV:6-4 CC:8 BS:8 PH:8 WIP:13 ARM:0 BTS:-3 STR:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Servant
CH: Mimetism

AUXILIA Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife (14)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:11 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube, G: Synchronized

AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse
MOV:6-4 CC:8 BS:10 PH:8 WIP:11 ARM:0 BTS:-3 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Synchronized

TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (14)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Doctor


293 Points | SWC: 6

ARMY CODE: eNozMlS1VDNSM6yBkIZqBhgkENYYmYEpEyOwmLElmDJF5pgYIvEAOo0TCg== Army Infinity v.3.0.

Thanks!

Admittedly, I'm not a PanO player, so I'm mostly unfamiliar with their gameplay aside from the other side of the battlefield.

However, you're running a huge TAG as your centerpiece. As an Aleph player that has done this, I've noticed the following:

1. Taking a Hacker is a blessing. If your opponent has a Hacker, they will molest your TAG every opportunity they'll get.
2. Snipers are a great idea. Usually the bane of a TAG is a heavy, scary weapon that will take you by surprise. Snipe them in ARO. MULTI Snipers are arguably the only snipers worth taking. The HMGer is also pretty much a sniper (but better in the active turn).
3. Especially this: The most crippling thing about a TAG taking up so many points is that many of your other units are reduced to little more than being Cheerleaders for providing orders. One AD drop unit will ruin your day. Prepare for this. You have Snipers and HMGs and cheap riflemen. If you let your big, scary TAG get too far away, an AD troop with a HMG will ruin your day.
4. Take an Engineer, obviously. You're already doing this. Adhesive Ammo and EMP will make you sad.

Otherwise, there's nothing glaringly wrong with that list.

Again, I'm not a PanO player.

However, I can see that one of the things that will totally ruin your day are Monofilament Mines.

That is a very good list, but it would be even better if you manage to include an Akalis Sikh in your troops. Just kick one fuslier away and include an Akalis. Combat Jump is very useful and deadly.

PANOCEANIA
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regs: 10/Irrs: 0):

2x NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife (41 | 1.5)
MOV:4-2 CC:14 BS:13 PH:12 WIP:13 ARM:3 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
CH: Mimetism, Aquatic Terrain | Mountain Terrain | Zero-G, Multispectral Visor L2

3x FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (10)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube

JOTUM Lieutenant MULTI HMG, Heavy Grenade Launcher / (110 | 2)
MOV:6-4 CC:18 BS:15 PH:17 WIP:13 ARM:10 BTS:-9 STR:3
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Remote Presence
ECM, Mountain Terrain, Lieutenant

MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife (15)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:-3 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Engineer

3x PALBOT Electric Pulse (3)
MOV:6-4 CC:8 BS:8 PH:8 WIP:13 ARM:0 BTS:-3 STR:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Servant
CH: Mimetism

AUXILIA Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife (14)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:11 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube, G: Synchronized

AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse
MOV:6-4 CC:8 BS:10 PH:8 WIP:11 ARM:0 BTS:-3 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Synchronized

TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (14)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Doctor

COMANDO AKAL Combi Rifle / Pistol, CCW (23)
MOV:4-2 CC:14 BS:13 PH:11 WIP:13 ARM:2 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
AD: Combat Jump, Religious Troop


297 Points | SWC: 5

ARMY CODE: eNozMlS1VDNSM6yBkIZqBmikkZmaIZAyMQLzjC3BlCkyx8QQmWcBIgE6ZRMQ
Army Infinity v.3.0. - http://www.devilteam.com

Just a heads up on the Hacker note, there is an FAQ ruling that state you may only attempt to hack a TAG once per player turn. There turned TAGs from hacker bait to nearly hacker immune. With a -9 BTS that means your hacker is getting one chance at best per player turn to roll a 6 or lower (if you have a WIP 15). Even if they succeed it's incredibly easy for a Jotum to break out of the hacker immob and continue on his merry way.

Morale of the story, a hacker is nice to have for anti-GML then it is for TAG protection.

Didn't know about that FAQ update - thanks!

And I'm going with a slightly modified list, based on some of your observations over in... the other area!

Yeah, being a hacker centric Nomad player the ruling made me a tad sad in the pants. TAGs were already hard as hell to hack, let alone only gettingone shot at it per player turn.

BlueDagger wrote:Just a heads up on the Hacker note, there is an FAQ ruling that state you may only attempt to hack a TAG once per player turn. There turned TAGs from hacker bait to nearly hacker immune. With a -9 BTS that means your hacker is getting one chance at best per player turn to roll a 6 or lower (if you have a WIP 15). Even if they succeed it's incredibly easy for a Jotum to break out of the hacker immob and continue on his merry way.

Morale of the story, a hacker is nice to have for anti-GML then it is for TAG protection.

I wish they had done that for just out of LOS hacking. I can kind of understand the logic, and the practicality, of stopping a hacker just waiting behind a wall spam-hacking while the TAG just strands their scratching its head, although to be fair it's probably not the easiest thing to arrange generally. I quite like the idea however of being able to hack as many times as you like, as long as you are within LOS of the TAG - at least giving the TAG some way to react - you can take the risk of multiple hacks, but you will probably be turned into swiss cheese.

LMFAO, if someone is hacking ANYTHING while in LoS, they are doin' it wrong lol.

One attempt I feel is a little strict, especially when the TAG can just make a WIP check to undo your attempt you just made at 30% or worse success. I'd much prefer a mechanic that if you fail you trigger a security protocol that allows the TAG to make a WIP FTF roll to prevent further attempts.

Q: How many attempts, successful or not can a hacker do per turn against an enemy TAG or HI?
A: Against a T.A.G.s there is only one attempt allowed by player turn. When declaring the Hacking Order, the Hacker must state if he wants to Immobilize or to Possess the T.A.G. If he has declared an Immobilization and he was successful, the T.A.G. is Immobilized and the Hacker cannot keep hacking the T.A.G. He is not allowed to Possess the T.A.G. as he has not declared he was trying to do so.
If he declared to Possess, and he was successful, he must now spend another Short Skill of a new Order and make the WIP roll. If he is not successful, the T.A.G. stops to be Immobilized, and the Hacker cannot try again to Hack it in that player turn.
For Heavy Infantries (HI) and also Remotes (REM) it works different, as there is no limit about the number of attempts allowed to hack them.

What tha what?!

Since when? I've been playing Infinity for so long and I've never heard about this. Who wrote this? is this officially CB approved?
Hackers are already expensive, if they limit them to just one chance of hacking a TAG... is this a fething joke?! Hacking TAGs with BS -9, rolling for 4, maybe 5... 20% of success.... Am I paying 12 points and 0,5 SWC for this???

This has to be wrong... I cannot believe it... I want this written in a hardcover book to really accept it.

Yup, it came through in the last wave of FAQ entries about 3-4 months ago. That wave, coincidentally, is full of game breaking rulings that I have been patiently waiting for CB to clean up. This one in particular appears to be the way they meant it to work to prevent weaker TAGs (-6) from being so susceptible to hacking. I personally think that TAGs minor vulnerability to hacking gave players a decent way to count TAGs without having to go toe to toe with them... which usually ends up in a lot of dead stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and here is the line in the rules that the apparent intention for it to work this way was always there. The intention was clearly lost in translation though...

"When a Hacker fails a roll, he loses all the accumulated effects
so far: the T.A.G will be completely free of his influence and any
Markers due to hacking will be removed. The Hacker must declare
when he begins whether he wishes to immobilize or possess a
T.A.G. Once his decision is declared, he may not perform any extra
Hacking attempts on that T.A.G during that turn."

I suppose you could just house rule it, it does sound a little unreasonable.

I'm an avidly opposed to house rules. Things like How Ladders work, picking up objective is a scenario, etc are ok, but core mechanics should never be house ruled. this leads to a discrepancy on how the game is played, which is never good for the health of a growing game.

So I guess that means... suck it up and buy more missile launchers? *shrug*

*sigh* if only it were that easy :/ ever since the hack nerf I have had extreme difficulty taking down TAGs.

Are you not a fan of the Lizard or the Szalamandra?

I'm just a fan of the Szalamandra Pilot...

*sideways glance*

...amIright?

When I first picked up the Infinity book, when I got to that page it sealed the deal. I knew this was the game for me.

Aside from that, Nomads certainly can either take TAGs of their own, or grab some rockets and try and punch through em'. I guess going from Hacking as your primary defense/offense is kinda a blow though. Multiple Hackers can still try and Hack the same TAG though right? It's just one attempt per Hacker.

Coordinated hacking is possible, but when you take that list then end up facing Ariadna, you just wasted 1SWC and a bunch of points lol. I love my Szally and I like the Lizard, however I'm not a big fan of taking TAGs because there is just so much other cool stuff that gets left out when I do.

The reason things are tougher for me is because I play hacker Nomads with piles of remotes as my fav list. I can still down them, but it's a lot harder now that they aren't really scared of my repeaters at all.

Couldn't you still ARO every time they pass one of your Repeaters?

Nope you can only attempt to hack a TAG 1 time per player turn.

I have to admit, I love T.A.G.s and I'm a big fan of T.A.G. on T.A.G. crime too!

Yeah, building an army around the Jotun is exactly like something I'd do. And why not? The thing is beastly and is probably the best looking TAG they've put out so far! I'd love to see how it gets painted up if/when you get one. It's the centerpiece of the army, I expect good things!

I'd love for it to be available to order here in the USA so I could get started on that!

That just means you have plenty of practice to get in before tackling that monster.

Good point!

Here's the final version of my PanO Jotum List (at least as of right now so I can purchase, assemble and paint it):

PANOCEANIA
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regs: 10/Irrs: 0):

JOTUM Lieutenant MULTI HMG, Heavy Grenade Launcher / (110 | 2)
MOV:6-4 CC:18 BS:15 PH:17 WIP:13 ARM:10 BTS:-9 STR:3
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Remote Presence
ECM, Mountain Terrain, Lieutenant

NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife (41 | 1.5)
MOV:4-2 CC:14 BS:13 PH:12 WIP:13 ARM:3 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
CH: Mimetism, Aquatic Terrain | Mountain Terrain | Zero-G, Multispectral Visor L2

NISSE HMG / Pistol, Knife (36 | 1.5)
MOV:4-2 CC:14 BS:13 PH:12 WIP:13 ARM:3 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
CH: Mimetism, Aquatic Terrain | Mountain Terrain | Zero-G, Multispectral Visor L2

FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (14)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater

3x FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (10)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube

MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife (15)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:-3 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Engineer

2x PALBOT Electric Pulse (3)
MOV:6-4 CC:8 BS:8 PH:8 WIP:13 ARM:0 BTS:-3 STR:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Servant
CH: Mimetism

AUXILIA Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife (14)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:11 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube, G: Synchronized

AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse
MOV:6-4 CC:8 BS:10 PH:8 WIP:11 ARM:0 BTS:-3 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Synchronized

SIERRA DRONBOT HMG, Monofilament Mines / Electric Pulse (34 | 1)
MOV:6-4 CC:8 BS:11 PH:8 WIP:13 ARM:0 BTS:-3 STR:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Remote Presence
Total Reaction, Repeater, 360º Visor


300 Points | SWC: 6

ARMY CODE: eNozMlQ1MlMzVDOssVQzApMgtqGaGZg0QCNNjMCUsSUyZQrhmID0AwC5BxF9 Army Infinity v.3.0.

Love it, it will be beautiful and effective. Point of friendly advice though, do not field the Jotum against new prospective players. People need a few games under their belt before playing against certain threats otherwise they will label such threats as "broken". It's only after having seen various threats i nthe game they learn how to deal with such things.

A short list of do not play vs newbies:
- Multiple Total Reaction bots/Sin Eaters
- Guided ammo (Dirty Nomad Trick)
- Top Teir TAGs (Spinx, Cutter, Avatar, Caskuda, HGL weilders)
- Antipodes
- All camo lists
- Impersonators
- Rear dropping AD

That being said, most newcomers to the game aren't going to be playing 300 Point games. -_-

You would be very surprised. A lot gamers have a "trial by fire" mentality where they just want to play knee deep in the game and don't want to be treated any different then a hardcore infinity player. Thennnnnnn they get stomped per and over and over lol.

There is a LOT of tactical concepts and manuevers to grasp in Infinity to play well and you have to think on the fly. Dropping a Caskuda into someone's backfield 3-4 games in a row is going to give a new player a VERY sour taste in their mouth right out the gate lol.

Too true. Truth be told the rules in the first book were terribly written. I've played plenty of games, but I seriously stared at the book going, "Whu?" for quite a while.

So I went with the advice of taking it slow with low points and simple weapons and gradually ramping up the 'stuff' going on, and it helped a ton. It's definitely not a game to just throw yourself into and hope something sticks.

But at the same time it's very refreshing. I'm still not 100% on everything, but I'm pretty comfortable on most of the rules. The real test is seeing if I can explain it to my buddies and get them playing...

You should get the 're-edited' PDF version of the rules - very nice!

Yeha the re-edited rules are very nice. Once you have the basics of rolls and moving down, I fuly suggest never looking at the book again lol. The wiki is VERY well organized and you can just surf through the rules there for hours on end.

One of my fav things to do when I first started playing was to surf through the different units on Army Infinity and click their special rules to look at the rule's entry on the wiki page.

Now that I have taught a gajillion players and have a lot of games under my belt i like to play lists that I just like the looks of and try to focus more on my tactics rather then countering specific threats via my lists. You of course have to have in the back of you mind how you will deal with certain things though.