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Edit: the rage about the pro team M5 breaking the summoners code in a game watched by 20,000 people is quite amusing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/25 22:07:55
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
Unfortunately, if any of the 3 is going to decline rapidly with the release of DotA 2, it will be HoN.
LoL will survive because it caters to casuals and bads, but I don't see HoN surviving with a decent playerbase when DotA 2 and Valve are sitting across the river with bright new signs and offers of fluffy cats.
More than that, LoL has a good aesthetic and an effective transaction system with new champions coming out every four weeks. People don't just play games because they're good but because they're invested (how do you think WoW has lived this long?) and a lot of people are now invested in LoL to the point that moving on isn't something they're likely to do, though many people I'll bet will play both.
I also think its debatable that DotA 2 will spell the end of anything. Depends on the model the game takes I think and how they'll release content or characters. LoL's gameplay isn't that bad (or even that unbalanced), its just the community but that's a problem all the DotA style games seem to have as far as I can tell.
LordofHats wrote:More than that, LoL has a good aesthetic and an effective transaction system with new champions coming out every four weeks. People don't just play games because they're good but because they're invested (how do you think WoW has lived this long?) and a lot of people are now invested in LoL to the point that moving on isn't something they're likely to do, though many people I'll bet will play both.
I also think its debatable that DotA 2 will spell the end of anything. Depends on the model the game takes I think and how they'll release content or characters. LoL's gameplay isn't that bad (or even that unbalanced), its just the community but that's a problem all the DotA style games seem to have as far as I can tell.
The bolded parts cannot co-exist.
LoL will never be balanced because Riot balances entirely on forum QQ and they release too many heroes to balance a game successfully. There are too many factors to have a balanced game. Tanky-DPS will always be the prevailing strategy because it works, and they don't stop releasing them because they are the ones who sell the most and are the ones people buy skins for.
Thinking otherwise is foolish - I played LoL for a good while, and I know how it is. They don't care if the game is balanced, all they care for is if people are buying skins - and as long as the people think the new heroes are cool, they'll buy skins.
LoL caters to casuals and bads because they balanced around Forum crying and things they call "Anti-Fun" and "Burden of Knowledge" - basically saying they don't want to make the game too complicated for their playerbase or they will quit and not buy skins.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/26 00:01:25
I actually think the game is fairly balanced. A few champions are out of balance but its nothing insurmountable.
because Riot balances entirely on forum QQ
I've found the opposite to be true. QQ often brings things to their attention but they regularly ignore a lot of complaints (how long have people been complaining about Tryndamere?). Sometime's they'll bow to QQ and nerf someone just to buff them back a few patches later when people have stopped caring. I tend to view Riot as having an idea of where they want a champion to be, and they generally ignore whining once they think that champion is there.
A lot of QQ comes from people who are bad or have no sense of game balance and they get ignored. I like when a team rages at Tryndamere and when I say they should have just built a thornmail for everyone they ignore me even tho doing so makes Tryndamere worthless. Likewise, people complain about Twitch a lot, but spend 400g on an oracle potion and twitch becomes free kills. Hell they even ignore people who say champions are to weak to an extent. It took a year to get Shen buffed from uselessness, and Eve is still horrible (her fix is in the works apparently).
I think Riot has actually done a fairly decent job with game balance in this respect. Most imbalances result less from the Champions themselves and more from the meta.
There are too many factors to have a balanced game.
I find this to be true of all video games that are more complicated than Pong.
Tanky-DPS will always be the prevailing strategy because it works,
Except its not true. Generally it falls into meta. If you're playing low ELO and low skill games, the meta is very different and tanky-DPS are generally favorable simply because of player behavior at that level of the game (these people ignore farming and tend to prefer trying to kill opposing players). In higher level games you generally only see 1 tanky DPS on the team and a very wide variety of champions being played (generally following tank, bruiser/support, AD carry, AP carry, and fill in the blank).
Part of the problem has nothing to do with Champion balance. When you have a dozen ranged AD carries, some of them just come out being better at the job than others. There's nothing really wrong with Miss Fortune, its just given the current meta of AD carry bot with support, there's no reason to take her because Graves or Sivir just do the job better. This is the same reason Cait is less popular than she used to be (though she's still really popular). There are few over powered champions in LoL, just a lot of them who get outclassed by someone else as a matter of course. Some champions just lack a role, like Pantheon. There's just not much of a place for him in current meta.
Those are obviously things to be fixed, but I reject that it means the game is unbalanced. At any given time, half the champions are viable in the game for play, all of them at various levels of play.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/02/26 00:33:07
I actually think the game is fairly balanced. A few champions are out of balance but its nothing insurmountable.
Not true. As an avid player of LoL, I can tell you that very few characters are balanced out, those being Mordekaiser, Trundle, Ryze, Taric, and Tristana. Everyone else is, IMHO, either overpowered or underpowered. There is a reason why it's almost always Lee Sin, Brand, Caitlyn/Graves/Vayne, Sona/Soraka in a game...
Hell they even ignore people who say champions are to weak to an extent. It took a year to get Shen buffed from uselessness, and Eve is still horrible (her fix is in the works apparently).
Twitch and her's "buffs" have been in the "Works" for over a year, now. And they have stated they are "Just waiting on particles".
Now, I'm not saying it's a bad game, it does several things that DOTA does absolutely GOD AWEFULLY. Namely, the addition of QWER, and the singular shopkeeper, though from the sound of it those are getting fixed in DOTA 2. Having said that, I do love the skills involved in DOTA's champions, far more than I like in LoL's. To me, they just feel like your contributing far more. You know how Tryndamere can survive for five seconds with his Ult? Allow me to introduce you to Dazzled, who has that as a normal skill.
But what the Puck do I know?
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
Riot balances around "Burden of Knowledge" and "Anti-Fun" because they realize that the more complicated the game is, the less people will play. If less people are playing, they are making less money. The game throws out complicated mechanics for simplicity.
They also release a new hero every 2 weeks (is it 4 now, as you said?) and that presents a gigantic problem. The reason DotA(2) holds a medium of balance is because of two reasons. One, they release very few heroes every year, around 3-4. Two, they have a "Tournament Mode". Tournament mode is a separated section of heroes who really are balanced and those are the ones in that mode. The majority of heroes are in Tournament Mode, but the few that are very hard to balance or the ones who are very new are held out.
When you introduce a new hero every 2 - or 4 - weeks, the game becomes too extensive and large to balance. When I said "complicated", I meant the amount of separate characters you have to balance. When balancing a character, you have to balance him to every other character as well. The game becomes exponentially harder to balance the more heroes you balance when your original group isn't in a exceptional state as it is.
Because of this, LoL can never be considered a competitive game when compared to a game like DotA, nor can it ever be balanced.
Edit: Slarg also made excellent points above me as well.
Yes, those things DotA doesn't do due to it being such an old game relying on the ANCIENT WC3 engine are being fixed in DotA 2.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/26 00:57:39
No, it's still one every two weeks. They are adding in a Fencer with a Counter Attack mechanic and the Juggernaught's Ult; two things they said they would never do a while ago.
Automatically Appended Next Post: KILL THOSE YORDLES!
I hate Yordles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/26 01:04:05
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
Because of this, LoL can never be considered a competitive game when compared to a game like DotA, nor can it ever be balanced.
Except that it is played competitively.
When I said "complicated", I meant the amount of separate characters you have to balance. When balancing a character, you have to balance him to every other character as well.
Horribly flawed logic. Its a team game. The Champions have to be balanced within that context not against every other champion as if they'd do nothing but engage in 1v1 bouts.
Mordekaiser, Trundle, Ryze, Taric, and Tristana
Ryze is the weakest character in the game between Levels 1-6, and Tristana is... Tristana. She's not bad but she's like MF right now. There's no reason to play her (and her leap is currently glitched apparently and doesn't always work).
That's of course speaking general. Competitive players seem to use everyone (except Eve never seen her) which is partially why I've ceased to believe the game is as unbalanced as many make it out. Sure some champions end up being used more often. I think Karthus, Graves, Sivir, Sona, Soraka, Riven, Amumu, and Yorik are extremely common among pro players in tournaments, but I've seen those same players use Tristana, Malzahar, Irelia, Annie, Ashe, and so on a so forth. I think there's only a few champions I've never seen used in a tournament and the ones that come right off my head are Tryn, Sion, Eve, and Shaco.
Lee Sin, Brand, Caitlyn/Graves/Vayne, Sona/Soraka
That's because when it comes to support Soraka and Sona outshine Taric and Janna in early game which is when you need them the most. And Taric just gets weaker when playing support as a game goes on further giving less of a reason to play him. This is less a problem with Taric and more a problem with meta (though I think in this case Taric needs to be altered to adapt to the meta). There isn't that much Vayne being played right now cause her early game bottom lane is atrocious. Lee Sin is just popular and Brand is no more common than any other AP mid (Ahri and Ziggs are a lot more popular than he is right now). EDIT: Some of it (I think) is appearance as well. Kog'Maw is very strong as an AD carry but he's less popular that Cait, Graves, and Sivir and I think its his appearance. How hard champions are to play well also factors in a little.
Most of these aren't problems with the champions you see "every game" being OP, its problems with the champions you never see because they just don't work as well. Its more productive to buff those champions who do their job poorly than the nerf the ones that do them well (which also seems to be Riots opinion on the matter).
P.S. Why you hate'n on the midgets Slarg. They gotta work twice as hard as the rest of us
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/26 03:40:29
I listed Ryze as balanced because you HAVE to get him past his Early Game, late game he is probably the best AP caster, as he builds tanky without sacrificing damage. His one major flaw, other than his Early, is that there are only so many variants you can use for his build.
I would say that Trynd, Sion, and Shaco not being used is probably because they all seem to be a FTOM that doesn't end; everyone with half a brain goes up against them almost every other game and kills them, almost every other game.
Also, Yordles all need to die in a grease fire, like the Meglings; every single Yordle in the game is SO GOD DAMNED ANNOYING!
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
LOH, quote my entire post. Don't just pick pieces. Answer my points, not just one.
LoL is played "competitively", but its not a competitive game. That's why it is a joke. It never will be considered like Starcraft 2 or DotA 2 because of the constant flux in balance it has because of the champions coming in every two weeks.
Let me give you this. If a new hero is being released every two weeks, that hero is being tested very little - not to the point where he will ever be balanced close to launch. Trundle was the only one who was entirely balanced at launch.
Add to that equation that you have to continue balancing and tweaking existing champions, its just not plausible. Riot rushes everything out the gate, finished or not, balanced or not, because the only thing that matters is how cool the champions look so they can buy the skin bundles at launch.
When a metagame is constantly fluctuating, you know the game is unbalanced. The metagame does fluctuate a LOT because of the amount of new heroes that come out so quickly.
Karon wrote: Trundle was the only one who was entirely balanced at launch.
No, Trundle is absolute garbage. He is outclassed in the Jungle, his ganks are subpar, and he has no ranged attack. His passive is worthless, and he is really, really ugly. Never play him.
-SSoTP.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
Karon wrote: Trundle was the only one who was entirely balanced at launch.
No, Trundle is absolute garbage. He is outclassed in the Jungle, his ganks are subpar, and he has no ranged attack. His passive is worthless, and he is really, really ugly. Never play him.
-SSoTP.
I'm well aware, I played a lot of Trundle when I got platinum with him before I got my DotA 2 beta invite. An extremely undervalued hero because of how unappealing he is to the majority of players (kids), but the best all-around control jungler out there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/26 03:59:21
I would say that Trynd, Sion, and Shaco not being used is probably because they all seem to be a FTOM that doesn't end; everyone with half a brain goes up against them almost every other game and kills them, almost every other game.
Honestly its that Tryn and Sion are super easy to counter. Thornmails shut them both down, and an Executioner really ruins Sion. Shaco is just annoying early game but as the game goes on he's less of a threat because his damage ability is low.
Also, Yordles all need to die in a grease fire, like the Meglings; every single Yordle in the game is SO GOD DAMNED ANNOYING!
Teemo can be quite the pain in the ass. Personally though Kennen is my favorite character and probably my best.
LoL is played "competitively", but its not a competitive game.
That's oxymoronic.
That's why it is a joke.
Among who? Honestly, the very idea of winning six figure prizes for being able to use a mouse and keyboard to extreme effectiveness is honestly kind of laughable no matter what game we're talking about.
It never will be considered like Starcraft 2 or DotA 2 because of the constant flux in balance it has because of the champions coming in every two weeks.
Is Starcraft competitive by virtue of balance or by virtue of just be popular? There was nothing particularly ground breaking about the first Starcraft. It was just very well made and became very popular. It became the huge competitive phenom that it was simply by being more popular (and more conductive in structure). Its balance came later. It wasn't at launch (but then what is?).
Let me give you this. If a new hero is being released every two weeks, that hero is being tested very little - not to the point where he will ever be balanced close to launch.
Assuming work starts the moment the last champion comes out. More likely several champions are being worked on at once.
Trundle was the only one who was entirely balanced at launch.
Trundle is 'meh' and he always has been since I started last year. Its part of a growing problem for the original 40 though that has been noticed in that newer champions coming out typically do their jobs better than they do.
When a metagame is constantly fluctuating, you know the game is unbalanced
No. Starcraft's meta fluctuated for over half a decade until all possible ideas had been effectively exhausted. At that point the meta ceased evolving. An evolving meta is not evidence of game imbalance, especially in a game where player behavior is such a determinant factor (as in DotA style games). The new heroes change the meta but not that much as most of them just fit into roles that already exist, especially since in LoL meta is more player behavior than an issue of Champion balance.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/02/26 04:49:37
I would say that Trynd, Sion, and Shaco not being used is probably because they all seem to be a FTOM that doesn't end; everyone with half a brain goes up against them almost every other game and kills them, almost every other game.
Honestly its that Tryn and Sion are super easy to counter. Thornmails shut them both down, and an Executioner really ruins Sion. Shaco is just annoying early game but as the game goes on he's less of a threat because his damage ability is low.
[
I was thinking more AP Sion, which is BVeil, but yes, they are both incredibly easy to counter.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
I actually think the game is fairly balanced. A few champions are out of balance but its nothing insurmountable.
Not true. As an avid player of LoL, I can tell you that very few characters are balanced out, those being Mordekaiser, Trundle, Ryze, Taric, and Tristana. Everyone else is, IMHO, either overpowered or underpowered. There is a reason why it's almost always Lee Sin, Brand, Caitlyn/Graves/Vayne, Sona/Soraka in a game...
Though Soraka may be backing off a touch with the recent changes. All it really effects is her sustainability, I still manage to win games of dominon with it though...
Janna should be somewhere on that list too I guess.
Somewhere on youtube is a video of me playing as an enemy Janna, has some of my good saves in it but not the best. Was kind of cool to find out about it as it was a decent game.
Oh also for funny LoL videos watch the Champion Spotlights, they might be a reason so many champions are seen as more broken than they really are.
I actually find a lot of those videos odd. The most recent one talking about the changes for Fiora's patch for example. In it, we see Garen in mid vs Lux. I've honestly never seen anyone mid a Garen against a Lux and I have a feeling in my gut that if I tried it wouldn't work out very well.
Riot balances around "Burden of Knowledge" and "Anti-Fun" because they realize that the more complicated the game is, the less people will play. If less people are playing, they are making less money. The game throws out complicated mechanics for simplicity.
Add to that equation that you have to continue balancing and tweaking existing champions, its just not plausible. Riot rushes everything out the gate, finished or not, balanced or not, because the only thing that matters is how cool the champions look so they can buy the skin bundles at launch.
If a new hero is being released every two weeks, that hero is being tested very little - not to the point where he will ever be balanced close to launch.
The game becomes exponentially harder to balance the more heroes you add when your original group isn't in a exceptional state as it is. If a company actually cared about the balance of a game, they would balance the existing content before adding new content. .
You can keep living in your delusional world that LoL maintains a competitive balance, I won't argue with you any more. I'll be playing DotA 2 where I can know that if I am sucking, its because I'm playing genuinely bad and not that I am gimped because of what character I pick.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/26 05:40:49
Karon wrote:Riot balances around "Burden of Knowledge" and "Anti-Fun" because they realize that the more complicated the game is, the less people will play. If less people are playing, they are making less money. The game throws out complicated mechanics for simplicity.
Add to that equation that you have to continue balancing and tweaking existing champions, its just not plausible. Riot rushes everything out the gate, finished or not, balanced or not, because the only thing that matters is how cool the champions look so they can buy the skin bundles at launch.
If a new hero is being released every two weeks, that hero is being tested very little - not to the point where he will ever be balanced close to launch.
The game becomes exponentially harder to balance the more heroes you add when your original group isn't in a exceptional state as it is. If a company actually cared about the balance of a game, they would balance the existing content before adding new content. .
Maybe if I put things in bold people will pay more attention to them
I read what you wrote and there's a reason I've ignored it. Its not an argument, its just a nonsensicle rant about some assumptions you have about what is an isn't competitive. Define for me what defines a "competitive game." Super Smash Bros has a competitive cicuit and that game is pretty damn imbalanced, as is Pokemon, Gears of War, and Call of Duty. I find it odd that you declare DotA the bastion of balance using the number of characters as an example when they have even more champions than LoL does. Obviously, the number of champions is not a great obstacle to creating balance unless your unwilling to put in the time to achieve the goal. Likewise, a company is capable of pursuing more than one goal at a time. They can make money, add new content, and balance that content all at the same time.
Likewise there's a difference between creating a perfectly balanced game, which is impossible, and creating a reasonably balanced game, wish is about the best anyone can hope for. By and large, I find LoL to be no where near as unbalanced as most people claim it to be. No champion is so power that they are unbeatable and, and when a patch creates such a champion its usually quickly rectified (Shen got over buffed last week and it got fixed very quickly, if oddly). You even freely admit that DotA is implementing a tournament mode where unbalanced Champions won't be available which is pretty much pointless. The only reason a Champion wouldn't be played in LoL is because they're too weak, and only one champion really exists in that category right now, everyone else is situational based on team composition. Even Trundle has made appearance in championship play. I think last year he was played by CLG for the finals in Kiev. For any given role there are at least four champions who can do it really well (Tanks and AP carries have a lot more freedom than that). Comparatively there's really only five supports in the game, and no body knows why no one plays Karma.
You can keep living in your delusional world that LoL maintains a competitive balance, I won't argue with you any more.
And you can live in your delusional world where competitive balance apparently has some meaning beyond the abstract. Everyone's a winner
I'll be playing DotA 2 where I can know that if I am sucking, its because I'm playing genuinely bad and not that I am gimped because of what character I pick.
The only reason you'd suck in LoL is if you're playing badly (Ignoring that there are some champions who hard counter others, like Kassadin vs most AP mids who can't match his range). The only champion in LoL right now that's so outright bad that its virtually impossible to do well with her is Eve and no one cares about Eve anyway. EDIT: Well the matchmaker could also screw you over big time cause its pretty damn bad. It will put entire teams of players up against teams that are much better at the game than they are but this is part of the flaw of how players ranked rather than an issue of the champions themselves.
Wasn't one not long ago with a mid Soraka?...
Yeah there was wasn't there. The one two weeks ago about the patch changes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/26 06:52:31
Karon wrote:Riot balances around "Burden of Knowledge" and "Anti-Fun" because they realize that the more complicated the game is, the less people will play. If less people are playing, they are making less money. The game throws out complicated mechanics for simplicity.
Exactly, though I play it for its simplicity. It saddens me I'll never see micromanagement champs like Broodmother or Meepo in this game. Heimer and Yorrick are about it and neither really appeal to me due to how basic they feel. Ziggs is the closest I'll get to Techie fun again... This is why we still have flash and not have it thrown onto boots yet...
I fail to see how complex mechanics = competitive. FPS games are pretty damn simple and Counter Strike played a pivotal role in the growth of competitive gaming.
Your response shows lack of knowledge of DotA, what tournament mode is, and even LoL.
Trundle is one of the top junglers, I don't know why you talk about him as if he is on par with Twitch.
Your love of the game clouds your mind of simple logic, as shown by your "a company can do multiple things at one time, bro".
You say "DotA has more heroes brosef, your logic says that it would be more unbalanced"
I said that constantly adding more heroes in such a short time when your existing group itself is already unbalanced only unbalances it more. DotA only adds 1-4 heroes a year at this point, and that's not even set it stone.
Your assertion that LoL is balanced fine and that the only problem is A: You are bad or B: Matchup problem, is just plain wrong. If you would look past your love of the game and look at the overall game from an objective standpoint, you would see that.
I said that constantly adding more heroes in such a short time when your existing group itself is already unbalanced only unbalances it more.
Except its not horribly unbalanced. The spread of champions seen in competitive play shows it rather effectively I think. Sure some are better than others, but I think that's unavoidable for any game deal with this many characters. Games with fewer Characters (I see you Smash Bros and you too Soul Calibur!) have bigger balancing issues than LoL. Is everything in LoL perfect? No. Some champions just don't work very well. Some of the older ones especially have kind of fallen behind as newer ones have come out.
Trundle is one of the top junglers, I don't know why you talk about him as if he is on par with Twitch.
I actually think Twitch is more viable than Trundle in solo que simply because most people are to stupid to bother with Oracles. Calling Trundle a top tier jungler shows a rather glaring lack of knowledge about LoL. Can he jungle well? Sure, but its an uphill battle and most of the other Junglers do it better right now.
Your love of the game clouds your mind of simple logic, as shown by your "a company can do multiple things at one time, bro".
No need to be demeaning. I have no more love for LoL than most games. Only games I get irrational about are Halo, KotOR, and Legend of Zelda (and of course my absolute loathing for DA2 and ME2 a pox upon them!). What I will give LoL though is that I've gotten a hell of a lot of replay value out of it but I think that would happen in any DotA style game for me. I thought about getting DotA but I just don't feel like buy that Warcraft pack to do it. I'm waiting till DotA 2 hits market and experiment with that.
I said that constantly adding more heroes in such a short time when your existing group itself is already unbalanced only unbalances it more.
It probably works out better when you have employees who are getting paid to do the work (not to demean DotA, mods like it are few and far between. Might actually be the most successful mod ever made idrk).
only problem is A: You are bad or B: Matchup problem
Maybe I haven't been clear (or maybe I got carried away somewhere) but balanced isn't how I'd refer to LoL, just not as unbalanced as people seem to think. A lot of champions need buffs because they're just outclassed by others and there's only a few who I think are glaringly overpowered. But mostly I think most imbalances are from underpowered champs. Why should I bother playing Miss Fortune (besides that I suck at ad carry)? Graves, Caitlyn, Sivir, and Vayne all do her job better she does. She can do it sure, but I'm just making a battle for myself cause now I'm gonna probably end up playing against one of them in lane. Likewise, why should I play Trundle when Lee Sin, Udyr, Olaf, and Nocturne can all do his job better? Jungles also a fairly good place to hide a team tank since the tanks are generally bad laners as well. LoL isn't perfect but Riot does things often enough that I think balance gets a decent amount of their attention, and I actually applaud them for not always bowing to the community in balance matters.
DotA only adds 1-4 heroes a year at this point, and that's not even set it stone.
That's probably because not many people work on it and its not like they're being paid. Besides, after all these years there can't be that many ideas left Isn't the guy who currently heads DotA also working on DotA 2? That's gotta be taking up a lot of time for the past two or three years.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/26 09:52:35
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