Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
The balance appears very very differently at different elo levels. The lower ones for example can actually get away with using Shaco for the most part. Like Karon has brought up multiple times in the past runes and masteries don't help, the wrong set up can cripple some champions.
But exactly how many games can say they have true balance anyway?
I think that's true. Like me and Slarg were talking about earlier, Tryndamere has a tendency to destroy at lower skilled games because many players haven't learned to build to counter at that level, but higher up you see him less because a single item can reduce him to nothing (by that same token, many players build tryndamere to squishy and the thornmail would hurt him a lot less if he went atmogs or something). Master Yi is in the same boat in a lot of ways. I think I've never seen him in a tournament now that I think about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/26 10:07:17
I've already made most of the points I always make.
My last one would be that LoL balances partly around low-level players (like people who are just starting out and LEVELING) to help people get into the game, at expense of their champions being viable for high-ELO play.
Eve was a rather hilarious example of this, where Riot actually said that they were going to ruin her for any sort of competitive play so the newbies would stop whining.
Until the "stealth remake", that thing they've been saying they are working on for over a year.
A game can't be balanced at high-level play (like in Tournaments) if it isn't balanced around high-level play, which LoL isn't.
You saying Twitch is more viable than Trundle is just completely wrong. Twitch is one of the worst heroes in the game, Trundle is played in tournaments often (he was when I played and watched them when I played months ago, at least).
LordofHats wrote:I think that's true. Like me and Slarg were talking about earlier, Tryndamere has a tendency to destroy at lower skilled games because many players haven't learned to build to counter at that level, but higher up you see him less because a single item can reduce him to nothing (by that same token, many players build tryndamere to squishy and the thornmail would hurt him a lot less if he went atmogs or something). Master Yi is in the same boat in a lot of ways. I think I've never seen him in a tournament now that I think about it.
I just find it funny that I have NEVER seen a Trynd build Wit's End, at the very least.....
And actually, Lord, Trundle is an incredibly wicked jungler. As far as I know, he is one of the only junglers that can pawn off Blue at the beginning and still stay in the Jungle until he decides he's done with it. Dragon can be done at lvl6 with 80% health at the end of it, and his ganks are very, very mean. The only thing is, is that he isn't really a "Killer", he's an "Enabler", which makes him unpopular. He decreases AD, he decreases MR/Armor, slap a Frozen Mallet and either a Malady or Black Cleaver on him, and his carry starts to get really fed, really fast.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
He's not an Udyr where he can just run in and bear+tiger and just rape you, he will slow you and do a good amount of damage himself, but he isn't going to 1v1 you as you are running back to your tower if you are close to full health.
He is a frustrating character to play if you have baddies on your team because of that. He requires his team to work with him more than a lot of other junglers when it comes to ganking.
A game can't be balanced at high-level play (like in Tournaments) if it isn't balanced around high-level play, which LoL isn't.
I think Riot plays a lot of the "trying to please everyone" game. A lot of the champions have glaring flaws that reduce their viability in high-level play but they don't get fixed cause those same champs destroy at low level. At the same time, some champions never really appear in low level play (LeBlanc) but appear more often at high level because playing them right is hard.
I reject however that this somehow makes a game uncompetitive. Maybe it won't be the high end super competitive game that some people want but honestly the only thing that defines a competitive game is that its played competitively (and probably that its popular enough to draw money). Arguing otherwise is kind of silly to me. If people want to play something competitively they will and I honestly don't see LoL's balance as being so broken that this can't be done with a straight face.
EDIT: However, if you're trying to play competitively in the ques that I'll concede just isn't going to happen. I have been mostly thinking of competition as taking place in the controlled environment of a tournament, but if we're talking about just playing hell yes it isn't competitive and it never will be. The matchmaker is gak and there's too many outright idiots to try and play LoL competitively in solo que. That's just setting ourselves up for a lot of pain suffering and horrible disappointment
And actually, Lord, Trundle is an incredibly wicked jungler. As far as I know, he is one of the only junglers that can pawn off Blue at the beginning and still stay in the Jungle until he decides he's done with it. Dragon can be done at lvl6 with 80% health at the end of it, and his ganks are very, very mean. The only thing is, is that he isn't really a "Killer", he's an "Enabler", which makes him unpopular. He decreases AD, he decreases MR/Armor, slap a Frozen Mallet and either a Malady or Black Cleaver on him, and his carry starts to get really fed, really fast.
Here's the thing about Trundle. To gank effectively, he absolutely has to land that rock right in someone's path and even if he lands it in their path it can actually become an obstacle for his own team. Anything else and the slow just isn't enough and the player will most likely escape unless they were overextended, in which case the player got themselves killed and Trundle just helped them along. Good ward placement and Trundle can't really gank anyone because of how direct he has to be. I've seen really good Trundle jungles and they work, but there's nothing Trundle can do that other Junglers can't and those other Junglers can do a lot of things Trundle can't. Trundle isn't unpopular because he enables kills he's unpopular probably mostly cause he's ugly but also because his options are limited. Junglers should be feeding kills to the carries to begin with (but try telling them that). EDIT: Trundle is a lot more useful as a bruiser in team fights than he is as a jungle.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/02/26 18:57:39
There is three simple requirements for a game to be competitive. Just because tournaments are willing to invite LoLto be there because its so popular doesn't make it competitive, it makes it a joke for money.
Your lack of knowledge of Trundle is evident, I won't argue him any more. I played him almost solely to get platinum on the very last day, I know his value and how he works. His late game power is only surpassed by Amumu, though he is often banned.
Since you like LoL and have clearly watched many of the high profile tournaments, I don't think I have to explain to you how valuable a Pause Button would have been that could have prevented the various fiascos at several LoL tournaments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/26 20:00:57
Karon wrote:Does League of Legends have a replay system? No.
That's what LoLRecorder is for. Why would Riot bother making one themselves when everyone already uses the third party program that Riot has gone ahead and endorsed (granted a lot of people on the forums still push for an official inbuilt recorder)? Frankly you keep accusing me of bias but bias over abstract concepts and game mechanics and features is pretty much all your arguing. EDIT: Pokemon is one of the most unbalanced games anyone can play and yet its still played competitively (and they get really serious about it in a creepy way). What your arguing isn't whether or not a game can be competitive is whether or not a game is more competitive than another.
Just because tournaments are willing to invite LoLto be there because its so popular doesn't make it competitive, it makes it a joke for money.
Competitive gaming in general is a joke for money. Though I still laugh that there are people who make eight and nine figure salaries for being able to throw a ball around in various ways
Your lack of knowledge of Trundle is evident, I won't argue him any more.
Its also obvious you haven't played the game in a very long time so I fail to understand why you'd argue for a champion when the balance and meta has mostly shifted out of his favor and its been like that for quite sometime. Most games never even make it to end game anyway, so being powerful at endgame isn't much of a consolation prize.
I don't think I have to explain to you how valuable a Pause Button would have been that could have prevented the various fiascos at several LoL tournaments.
Perhaps you can provide more context? I generally only watch the semi-finals and the finals.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/02/26 20:21:42
Riot shouldn't make their own replay software because a third-party program did it for them? Pathetic, if you ask me. Warcraft 3 had a replay system, and you know how old that is.
The game has been early-game dependent forever because of how people play and Flash. The people who make the most mistakes early are the ones who will lose because the whole point is to farm until 20-30 minutes have passed and then start pushing. Its boring as hell. Trundle is very powerful because he can gank very well with competent teammates and scales well into mid-lategame.
As for problems in tournaments, I can name a few.
During Dreamhack Summer there was a problem with a laptop that malfunctioned and shut down on one of the contestants machines (this was semi-finals) and they simply ignored the problem. The character was inactive for 5 minutes and just sat next to his tower until they killed him, allowing for several towers to be taken.
It was very amusing because the commentators entirely ignored it (them being Riot employees, it was very easy to see).
The second was at...GWC? Whatever its called, it was the big tournament in Germany.
The game there actually froze in the final match as TSM was about to mount a comeback. CLG had begun to lose their advantage and was being beaten back from TSM's base.
4 out of the 5 members of CLG were being engaged on by TSM, and had very little health. It was the most important point in the match..and the game just stopped.
Riot was able to restore it to the correct point in time of the game, but everyone was sent back to their base with full health. TSM lost the match shortly after because of this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/26 21:42:44
Karon wrote:Riot shouldn't make their own replay software because a third-party program did it for them? Pathetic, if you ask me. Warcraft 3 had a replay system, and you know how old that is.
I honestly am uncaring to the issue. Replays are great and all, but really I don't find it at all necessary for the game (Riot probably feels the same way judging by their reaction to it). I typically know exactly what I did wrong when I do something stupid and I just try to avoid doing it again.
The game has been early-game dependent forever because of how people play and Flash.
This is true and unfortunately Riot doesn't seem to actually care about the issue. I get disappointed that so many games (for me at least) end within twenty to twenty-five minutes and I never get to play with a fully built team against another.
During Dreamhack Summer there was a problem with a laptop that malfunctioned and shut down on one of the contestants machines (this was semi-finals) and they simply ignored the problem. The character was inactive for 5 minutes and just sat next to his tower until they killed him, allowing for several towers to be taken.
It was very amusing because the commentators entirely ignored it (them being Riot employees, it was very easy to see).
Sounds like they should have restarted that to me. How far into the game were they?
The game there actually froze in the final match as TSM was about to mount a comeback. CLG had begun to lose their advantage and was being beaten back from TSM's base.
4 out of the 5 members of CLG were being engaged on by TSM, and had very little health. It was the most important point in the match..and the game just stopped.
Riot was able to restore it to the correct point in time of the game, but everyone was sent back to their base with full health. TSM lost the match shortly after because of this.
That really really sucks, cause far as I can tell half the finals for these tournaments are SoloMid vs CLG and CLG seems to always win
As a person who randomly got a DOTA2 beta invite I gave it a whirl and just found it not that fun to play. Friends then convinced me to try LoL which I found a lot more fun to play and easier to get into. I tried DOTA but just couldn't make any hero work except Sniper. I tried LoL and can play nearly any champ.
Alright admitadly I'm awful and PvP I suck at but man I enjoy playing it.
On topic now: Loved those vids Hadn't seen them before.
"Praise Be To The Omissiah!"
"Three things make the Empire great: Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!"
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
Expect my posts to have a bazillion edits. I miss out letters, words, sometimes even entire sentences in my points and posts.
They were roughly 15-20 minutes into the game - not at a point where they could just say "K, well, lets restart gauiz". They just rolled with it and tried to ignore it - rather badly because it was clear that the team who had the disconnected player had lost because of it.
Replays aren't really an issue for LoL because of how simple it is. They are much more valuable when the game is more in-depth like DotA. It really isn't profitable for Riot to make a replay system in their game because the majority of their players are just casuals who don't care.
DotA(2) requires time to learn, and is not noob friendly. Its when you learn to play DotA when its get enjoyable. Its balanced around the very highest level of play, and is the reason its so popular in competitive circuits.
Your experience is common because LoL is meant to be very noob friendly and easy to pick up. This maximizes their income because the longer you stay and play the more likely your odds of buying their little money points are. Its a rather ingenious business concept, but the game suffers for it rather badly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/26 22:11:42
I expect that if I did struggle through with it and get decent it would be fun but I like the apparent aggressiveness of LoL more as risking yourself doesn't lose you gold. I must say that calling anyone who tries to just try and pick up the game 'noob' doesn't exactly set a great scene and seems quite elitist. (not trying to poke fun/flame/etc. Trying to keep this civil). I gotta say though. All Moba (I think that's the genre name?) suffer from terrible communities or so it seems if you play with match made teams.
Can't really comment any more on DOTA since I didn't play it enough. I did give quite a few of the supposedly easier champs a go.
I can see how the whole 'it's gets good once you're good' comes into effect since I'm a Dorf Fort player. But without someone else I know playing it I'd rather play the game my friends do play.
"Praise Be To The Omissiah!"
"Three things make the Empire great: Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!"
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
Expect my posts to have a bazillion edits. I miss out letters, words, sometimes even entire sentences in my points and posts.
Karon wrote:They were roughly 15-20 minutes into the game - not at a point where they could just say "K, well, lets restart gauiz".
That definitely sucks.
DotA(2) requires time to learn, and is not noob friendly.
All the DotA style games seem to have really high learning curves but from what I understand DotA's is like the sheer face of a cliff that only the bravest of souls may scale. I'm curious to see what will happen to LoL and HoN when the original becomes the new flavor. Will LoL embrace being the casual niche or try to catch up and build its competitive edge (I find the later less likely than the former). I wonder if the hardcore LoL players will start a blood feud with the DotA2 players. We haven't had a good gaming blood feud in awhile.
All the DotA style games seem to have really high learning curves but from what I understand DotA's is like the sheer face of a cliff that only the bravest of souls may scale. I'm curious to see what will happen to LoL and HoN when the original becomes the new flavor. Will LoL embrace being the casual niche or try to catch up and build its competitive edge (I find the later less likely than the former). I wonder if the hardcore LoL players will start a blood feud with the DotA2 players. We haven't had a good gaming blood feud in awhile.
Gaming blood feuds do nothing and just make a lot of people get suspended from forums more than anything else.
"Praise Be To The Omissiah!"
"Three things make the Empire great: Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!"
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
Expect my posts to have a bazillion edits. I miss out letters, words, sometimes even entire sentences in my points and posts.
LordofHats wrote:
Here's the thing about Trundle. To gank effectively, he absolutely has to land that rock right in someone's path and even if he lands it in their path it can actually become an obstacle for his own team. Anything else and the slow just isn't enough and the player will most likely escape unless they were overextended, in which case the player got themselves killed and Trundle just helped them along. Good ward placement and Trundle can't really gank anyone because of how direct he has to be. I've seen really good Trundle jungles and they work, but there's nothing Trundle can do that other Junglers can't and those other Junglers can do a lot of things Trundle can't. Trundle isn't unpopular because he enables kills he's unpopular probably mostly cause he's ugly but also because his options are limited. Junglers should be feeding kills to the carries to begin with (but try telling them that). EDIT: Trundle is a lot more useful as a bruiser in team fights than he is as a jungle.
Trundle stacks up well with the best junglers in the game in large part because he can make life hell for lots of different opposing junglers. He isn't the best ganker, but neither is Udyr, and Udyr is widely considered one of the overall best junglers in the game. If all you really care about is the gank, then you should be playing Gangplank, Nocturne, or Rammus.
As for the rock, it doesn't have to be in their path to the extent that they're hit by the slow, its just needs make them choose between taking the slow, or taking another route.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
LordofHats wrote:
Here's the thing about Trundle. To gank effectively, he absolutely has to land that rock right in someone's path and even if he lands it in their path it can actually become an obstacle for his own team. Anything else and the slow just isn't enough and the player will most likely escape unless they were overextended, in which case the player got themselves killed and Trundle just helped them along. Good ward placement and Trundle can't really gank anyone because of how direct he has to be. I've seen really good Trundle jungles and they work, but there's nothing Trundle can do that other Junglers can't and those other Junglers can do a lot of things Trundle can't. Trundle isn't unpopular because he enables kills he's unpopular probably mostly cause he's ugly but also because his options are limited. Junglers should be feeding kills to the carries to begin with (but try telling them that). EDIT: Trundle is a lot more useful as a bruiser in team fights than he is as a jungle.
Trundle stacks up well with the best junglers in the game in large part because he can make life hell for lots of different opposing junglers. He isn't the best ganker, but neither is Udyr, and Udyr is widely considered one of the overall best junglers in the game. If all you really care about is the gank, then you should be playing Gangplank, Nocturne, or Rammus.
As for the rock, it doesn't have to be in their path to the extent that they're hit by the slow, its just needs make them choose between taking the slow, or taking another route.
Or burning a Flash; sometimes, all you have to do is put a Pillar right next to someone to make them think "Oh snap, I'm about to get ganked!" for them to back off, long enough for your buddy to get away, or burn a Summoners. I honestly don't do a whole lot of Ganking with Trundle, but I do help my lanes out in other ways.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
Best jungle however is Lee Sin, in the hands of a decent player he is pretty scary and basically darts in, ganks, then flies back out again rather quickly. Like you said just getting them to burn a summoner is a successful enough gank as it gives the lane a brief advantage. Think of Udyr with three flashes and Ali's headbutt in exchange for his stun.
I started playing Garen a bit, and this song sums it up really.
Spoiler:
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
bush