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So i was playing with a friend recently and we ran into a problem of what event happens first, when two different events say "at the beginning of the turn".

Im playing Space Wolves,
Game just started and I'm going first.
I have to drop my drop pod, as i only have one and the rule states "At the beginning of your first turn...Units making a drop pod assault arrive on the player's first turn".
But my rune priest is in the drop pod with a squad of grey hunters
and i desire to use his storm caller power
now the rules for storm caller is a "at the beginning of his [rune priest obviously] turn, the rune priest may summon..." as well, soooo.....


The question is now, does or can i have:
1) the drop pod fall first
2) Pop open doors and passengers disembark
3) and now go on cast the rune priests' ability of stormcaller?


When there are multiple "at the beginning of the turn" events, who or what decides which events occur first, OR do all happen at the same time? also is there a FAQ or some other written evidence of how it is supposed to be so i can show proof next game? (i despise being shot at my plasma and being denied a cover save...)

Apologizes if i was missing something that already answered my questions, as i did a search around to see if this was answered, yet i could not find one.

Thanks again Dakka community ,
David Hume

All Start of the turn abilities happen before any movement is done (effectively). Rolling for reserves is after start of the turn abilities.

But how does that answer my questions?


You don't roll for your reserves for drop pod assault if you only have one drop pod, as it is being rounded down, you must drop it on your first turn, specifically at the beginning of your first turn, which is obviously done before movement, yet stormcaller is done at the beginning of your turn as well.

Is your reference to the movement phase due to the disembarking of the rune priest in that phase rather than initial landing? But don't the passengers of drop pods immediately disembark upon landing?


Politely, this question is yet to be resolved

The start of your turn is just that.

You are past the start of the turn when you start following the rules for drop pod assault. Many other codexes have rules that state things work at the start of the turn, and they can't use them the turn they arrive from deep strike, because they aren't on the table at the start of the turn.

If you are not on the table at the start of the turn, you can't do X if X states it must be done at the start of the turn.

i believe you might be correct with, "If you are not on the table at the start of the turn, you can't do X if X states it must be done at the start of the turn." ...

though that would be disproved with drop pods, as they are not on the table at the start of the turn (X), yet it (X) must be done at the start of the turn...

And what do you mean by, "You are past the start of the turn when you start following the rules for drop pod assault." Doesn't it say that it arrives on the beginning of the turn? So then do all other abilities that are to be used at the beginning of the turn get nullified?!

If hypothetically there's a rune priest (called 1 and with storm caller and living lighting) on the board and another rune priest (called 2, with stormcaller and say jaws) in a drop pod, which happens first during the beginning of the turn?

Does the drop pod fall, then 2 can use his stormcaller? and then could 1 use his stormcaller as well since we're still resolving "beginning of the turn" effects and he had to disembark immediately when the drop pod landed prior??


If a boltgun is fired in a Catachan jungle and no one hears it, does it make a sound!?!?

At the beginning of the turn is specifically that. Just read the rulebook regarding it. Your priest on the board is fine, the other one arriving from drop pod assault isn't.

Things that you must do (drop pod assault) take precedence over things that you can do (cast Stormcaller).

For instance, a Tervigon 'can' spawn termagants, but it must do so at the beginning of its movement phase, before it has moved. Therefore, if it must move on from reserves, it cannot spawn termagants that turn, since it 'must' move on before it 'can' make termagants.

Just because I'd like to make termagants doesn't give me permission to.

alright, thanks everyone for the clarification

Oh for Pete's sake, it's in the main rules FAQ:

Q: If a unit is in reserve, and it has an ability that
occurs at the start of a turn can they use that ability on
the turn they arrive? (p94)
A: No. Unless specifically stated otherwise.

The drop pod rules say that at the beginning of your first turn you chose the drop pods to come in. Reserves come in at the beginning of your movement phase.

My friends and I have always played that the beginning of your turn is before the beginning of your movement phase. Though not specifically stated in the rulebook, this interpretation is supported with various GW FAQs. For instance, you cast psychic powers, then move on reserves and then move existing units. So you can't cast psychic powers on units that just arrived from reserves.

I'd love to cast fortune on my farseer and warlocks just arriving form reserves, but I can't.

No, it isnt supported by ANY GW FAQ. They are exactly congruent.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it isnt supported by ANY GW FAQ. They are exactly congruent.

Except for the main FAQ which Don Mondo posted above, and the one posted below.

Chaos Space Marine FAQ:
Q. If a Sorcerer in Terminator armour with a psychic power that works at the beginning of the turn Warptime) is deep striking, what takes place first, teleporting in or psychic powers? Or does the owner decide on the order? (p31)

A. The psychic power is used ‘at the beginning of turn’, while the unit deep strikes in the Movement phase, so a deep striking model cannot use Warptime or similar powers in the turn they deep strike.

My italicized portions tend to lean toward beginning of turn before movement phase

Please find, in the rulebook, a "start of turn" that isnt always the start of the movement phase.

They are exactly the same.

BTW - the FAQ above still doesnt say one occurs before the other, it just follows the ruling that you have to be on the board in order to use start of turn / movement phase powers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Please find, in the rulebook, a "start of turn" that isnt always the start of the movement phase.

They are exactly the same.

Furthermore, the very end of your assault phase is, at the exact same time, the beginning of your opponent's movement phase. There is no "beginning of turn" phase and there is no "end of turn phase".

There are up to 7 game turns, each comprised of 2 player turns, each comprised of 3 phases. Nothing more, nothing less.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BTW - the FAQ above still doesnt say one occurs before the other, it just follows the ruling that you have to be on the board in order to use start of turn / movement phase powers.

And where is this ruling you are referencing?

The Chaos FAQ clearly reads that beginning of the turn is not the same as movement phase.

ryan3740 wrote:

The Chaos FAQ clearly reads that beginning of the turn is not the same as movement phase.

No it doesn't. Actually, it says just that.

The beginning of your turn = the beginning of the movement phase. Your model isn't on the board at the "beginning of your movement phase", therefore, he cannot use the power.

If you do anything before using the power, then its not the "beginning of the movement phase" anymore, is it?

puma713 wrote: Your model isn't on the board at the "beginning of your movement phase", therefore, he cannot use the power.

I'm still waiting for a page number on that from you.

ryan3740 wrote:

puma713 wrote: Your model isn't on the board at the "beginning of your movement phase", therefore, he cannot use the power.

I'm still waiting for a page number on that from you.

It's in the FAQ you just quoted. If you are off the board, then at the beginning of your movement phase, you are not on the board to use the power. This is simple logic.

If you are looking for a page number to tell you that the movement phase is the beginning of the turn, you won't find it. What you will find is Turn Sequence: Movement Phase, Shooting Phase and Assault Phase.

And that is all you will find. You won't find anything telling you when the beginning of your turn is, because there is no such "break" in the turn sequence. The beginning of the movement phase is the beginning of your turn just like the end of your assault phase is the beginning of your opponent's turn.

Unless you disagree with that too.

ryan3740 wrote:

puma713 wrote: Your model isn't on the board at the "beginning of your movement phase", therefore, he cannot use the power.

I'm still waiting for a page number on that from you.

Still waiting on that page number showing that there is a start of turn different to the start of movement phase. Oh wait, there isnt one

Oh for crying out loud. OK, there is NO BOOK DEFINITION of start of turn. But think about it, if you have moved a unit, is it still the start of the frikkin' turn? No, because you have done something in the turn other than start of turn actions. But yes, the movement phase is the first thing that occurs in a players turn, so the beginning of the movement phase is also the 'start of the turn'.

Bottom line, doesn't really matter whether 'start of turn' is part of the movement phase or not, cause either way, once you move a unit, you are past the start of the turn.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

ryan3740 wrote:

puma713 wrote: Your model isn't on the board at the "beginning of your movement phase", therefore, he cannot use the power.

I'm still waiting for a page number on that from you.

Still waiting on that page number showing that there is a start of turn different to the start of movement phase. Oh wait, there isnt one

No, there isn't. I at least have a FAQ that backs up my reasoning. Does the FAQ say they are the same and happen at the same time? No, it says they do not happen at the same time.

How do you all play this - can I cast fortune on a squad that moved in from reserves this turn?

I answer it this way - The psychic power is used ‘at the beginning of turn’, while the unit comes on the table in the Movement phase, so a reserved unit cannot have powers cast on it in the turn they arrive from reserves.

ryan3740 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

ryan3740 wrote:

puma713 wrote: Your model isn't on the board at the "beginning of your movement phase", therefore, he cannot use the power.

I'm still waiting for a page number on that from you.

Still waiting on that page number showing that there is a start of turn different to the start of movement phase. Oh wait, there isnt one

No, there isn't. I at least have a FAQ that backs up my reasoning. Does the FAQ say they are the same and happen at the same time? No, it says they do not happen at the same time.

How do you all play this - can I cast fortune on a squad that moved in from reserves this turn?

I answer it this way - The psychic power is used ‘at the beginning of turn’, while the unit comes on the table in the Movement phase, so a reserved unit cannot have powers cast on it in the turn they arrive from reserves.

You do realize that Warhammer 40K is a permissive ruleset right? You have to be told what something is, what something does, what you have permission to do, how things interact. The omission of these things does not create logical counterparts. For instance, the rulebook doesn't say that I can't have AP1 72" assault 9 bolters. So, I can right?

The same reasoning applies here. We have to go on what we're told and what we're told is that there are game turns and there are player turns. Each game turn consists of 2 player turns. Each player turn consists of 3 phases. And that is it. There's no more to it. No matter how much you search and search, it really is that simple.

The beginning of the movement phase is the beginning of the turn. The end of the movement phase is, at the exact same time, the beginning of the shooting phase. The end of the shooting phase is, at the exact same time, the beginning of the assault phase. And the end of player 1's assault phase is, at the exact same time, the beginning of player 2's movement phase. There is no separation.

Because we are generally polite people and gaming is a social endeavor, we try to tell our opponents, "I am finished." or "Let's begin." But these mean nothing. They are just polite references to being ready to move on. But, by the letter of the rule, as soon as you're done rolling your last morale check in your assault phase (and tidying up what happens because of it), your opponent can start moving his models.

Before your opponent moves his models, though, he may stop and say, "I need to cast my powers."

Edit: And to answer your question, no, you could not cast Fortune on a squad that moved on from reserves this turn, just as you couldn't cast Fortune on the Farseer himself if he moved on from Reserves this turn.

For instance, the rulebook doesn't say that I can't have AP1 72" assault 9 bolters. So, I can right?

Just to interfere slightly, the specific statline for a 'Bolter' in the relevant codices would take precedence, and they do not have a 72" nor are they Assault 9 or AP1. So no, you still can't.

You missed the point. Regardless of what the codices give as the stats for a bolter, they never say that he can't make up his own stats.

Avatar 720 wrote:

For instance, the rulebook doesn't say that I can't have AP1 72" assault 9 bolters. So, I can right?

Just to interfere slightly, the specific statline for a 'Bolter' in the relevant codices would take precedence, and they do not have a 72" nor are they Assault 9 or AP1. So no, you still can't.

Ghaz wrote:You missed the point. Regardless of what the codices give as the stats for a bolter, they never say that he can't make up his own stats.

Thank you.

I got the point, but making up rules =/= doing something because nothing says you can't.

A Bolter is still a Bolter, and the fact that it already has a pre-determined statline is essentially the rules telling you that you cannot have a 72" range AP1 assault 9 bolter.

Nothing says you can't have a 72" range AP1 assault 9 weapon, but every codex that has an entry for a 'Bolter' is saying you can't have a bolter with those stats.

Avatar 720 wrote:I got the point, but making up rules =/= doing something because nothing says you can't.

A Bolter is still a Bolter, and the fact that it already has a pre-determined statline is essentially the rules telling you that you cannot have a 72" range AP1 assault 9 bolter.

Nothing says you can't have a 72" range AP1 assault 9 weapon, but every codex that has an entry for a 'Bolter' is saying you can't have a bolter with those stats.

Unless he was referring to his homemade Chapter with the Codex he wrote himself, that had a bolter with those stats, Nothing is saying he cant do that!

DeathReaper wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:I got the point, but making up rules =/= doing something because nothing says you can't.

A Bolter is still a Bolter, and the fact that it already has a pre-determined statline is essentially the rules telling you that you cannot have a 72" range AP1 assault 9 bolter.

Nothing says you can't have a 72" range AP1 assault 9 weapon, but every codex that has an entry for a 'Bolter' is saying you can't have a bolter with those stats.

Unless he was referring to his homemade Chapter with the Codex he wrote himself, that had a bolter with those stats, Nothing is saying he cant do that!

True, but then a permissive ruleset wouldn't come into it, because he has permission from his codex to field a bolter with such stats.

Anyway, my point is that using a 72" AP1 assault 9 Bolter to try and illustrate a permissive ruleset isn't the best example, due to such stats currently being disallowed by existing codices, and only available in custom codices, where it would be giving permission for its use.

Okay, I will amend:

Unless he was referring to his homemade Chapter with the Codex he wrote himself, that had a bolter with No stats at all so he can change them on a whim, Nothing is saying he cant do that!

A Bolter with a Range of -, S of -, AP of -, and Type of - would not be allowed to have different stats and still refer to that weapon unless given permission to do so in his codex. If he said "My bolter is R12" S10 AP1 Assault 10 Large Blast" and I asked to see his codex, I would see that his Bolter is in fact R, S, AP, and Type '-', and thus he is not allowed to use his other statline.

However, he is not not allowed to add a weapon called "Uber Weapon 1" to his army with R72" AP1 Assault 9, which I would accept as being used to reflect a permissive ruleset. Whilst people might say it's not in any unit's options, he can say that it doesn't say it has to be for him to take it.

EDIT: Might've been easier to give that suggestion to start with, but ah well, it's lonely at 5:35am.