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Sorry didn't want to abbreviate a topic title.

But how do people on dakka feel about WYSIWYG? An do any people who play in tournaments know the general rule for WYSIWYG when playing in them?
I ask this because I have not really played in any tournaments before, just friendly matches from time to time. I play tau with a suit heavy army and did not bother with magnetizing the different weapon systems that go on the suits. What I did was take what weapons looked cool, or a couple crazy conversions for some of my crisis suits. In general though when playing competitively I go with TL missile pods, plasma rifle, and multi tracker, even though not all of the crisis suits have those built on. I also take the TA now and again and that is also not represented on most of the models. I always specify what models have what load out before the game to avoid any confusion though.

So would you say that this is not an acceptable way to play for competitive events hosted by local gaming stores? I personally do not see what difference it makes, like those stores that require 3 colors for playing, but thats a whole nother topic lol

Tournaments are pretty strict on WYSIWYG, since it prevents confusion, keeps your sergeant from mysteriously having a chainsword one turn and a thunder hammer the next, and reduces conflicts.

Personally, I'm a strong advocate of it, since it keeps aforementioned confusion out of the game. I don't mind a proxy here and there, but I'd rather have everything be what it actually is. The models are generally cool enough that it's not an issue.

I agree with the rule, you have the parts and I'm sure that you've made your army list before game time, so there should be no excuse as to why your model doesn't have the correct gear, other then pure laziness. lol

It's mostly a toss-up depending on what your opponent thinks, generally speaking most people will be okay with conversions as long as you explain everything to prevent confusion beforehand and are consistent across the board (if that funny-shaped tube is a lascannon on one model, another identical funny-shaped tube can't be an autocannon, it has to be a lascannon; for instance).

See that's what I am saying. How is their confusion if you tell them before hand and you have the list printed out with the model mark for the specific upgrades/wargear? That should prevent something crazy like your marine sergeant turning into the Emperor of Mankind

So I agree that wysiwyg should (and generally is) a pretty iron clad rule in tournaments. You just don't have the time to be able to explain and then re-explain what's going on in your army. Plus, tournament environments place extra pressure on a person to cheat, which is enabled much more easily in a break from wysiwyg.

Outside of this, though, wysiwyg is something that should always be aspired to as much as possible, but doing a few subs here and there isn't so big of a deal, especially if they're tastefully and clearly done. Playing a vulkan list and saying "all of my heavy weapons are multimeltas and all of my special weapons are flamers" is one thing, using a rhino to proxy a tyranid monstrous creature is another...

Tournies kind of have to stick to WYSIWYG. The majority of players are on the up and up, but there's always going to be people who either aren't going to remember or are going to maliciously misrepresent what their model is carrying. In a friendly game, I really don't care. I understand that enforcing it for casual play would be kind of prohibitive (since I, for one, would like to test a new configuration out before I saw all the hands off of my Marines to replace them with, say, powerfists).

When you're playing in a tournament, there is a lot on your mind.

You don't want to have to remember that some squad with all lasguns is half plasmaguns, etc etc

The burden is on you to make your models easily recognizable.

If you're too lazy to have the correct models, don't go to a tournament.

The only thing I don't mind not being modeled on models are grenades. Those bastages change between codex to codex, on whether they cost points or not, or which ones you can use...

But for everything else, it should be WYSIWYG. That Lascannon in that squad is suddenly an autocannon, or that guy with the chainsword has a power fist...

Alright well it makes sense for tournaments. Like I said I haven't played in any so I was just wondering what their position is on it.
But that grenade thing crazy brought up is just one of the things I was hopping you might be able to get away with. Like when I got my first Fire Warrior models I put together all the pieces, including the grenades. I would hate to have to break them off or be required to pay the points for them. I suppose rules are rules though.
A little off topic here but I find it a real shame that people would try to cheat in an easy going environment like 40k. Some of the cheating I have heard of is ridiculous, and really unnecessary. I can see that tournaments would require WYSIWYG even if people did not purposely want to cheat though.

Every tournament I have played in is WYSIWYG and I think is is the best thing for tournaments.

At a club/fun level I don't really care much as long as the other guy tels me whats going on with his army. Alsoalows people to experement with there armys before they go off and custom there guys or by new gear fro them.

Weapon upgrades, I'm for sticking with WYSIWYG.

Non-weapon upgrades and grenades (things like melta bombs, adamantine mantle, bionics, etc) I'm not too fussed about as long as it's perfectly clear when the game starts what has what.

I'm not going to get annoyed if someone decides to run an adamantine mantle on a character without a cape or put melta bombs on an assault squad without showing melta bombs on the models, because these are upgrades people will likely change game to game. Just as long as there's some identifying mark on the squad if there are multiples of it (say, 2 assault squads but only one has melta bombs) so confusion mid-game is cut down.

Though, as I said, I draw the line at weapons. Weapon upgrades should be represented, at least if it's a common occurance. If someone wants to proxy a Marine with a heavy bolter as a Marine with a Lascannon to give it a try, go for it, as long as they intend to make a Marine with a Lascannon if they intend to keep using it.

what if it's a weapon that you put on a model but don't want it used? I.e. Storm raven with the hurricane bolters but don't want to use them yet glued on a long time ago since it looks cool? Would people be ok if I just put a piece of masking tape over the barrels or something?

sudojoe wrote:what if it's a weapon that you put on a model but don't want it used? I.e. Storm raven with the hurricane bolters but don't want to use them yet glued on a long time ago since it looks cool? Would people be ok if I just put a piece of masking tape over the barrels or something?

for fun/club games I could not see a problem but for a tornament I don't think it will work

It's terrible for 2 reasons:

#1: Just have a clearly defined list on you, showing what you have; putting call-signs/symbols on the unit (a little sticker or something) if there is a lot of variation. proxy models can be used to distinguish between models with a heavy weapon and those without, putting notes in the list if it's not already obvious.

#2: Unless you magnetise your models, it looks like a commercial ploy by GW; getting you to pay for another model just so that it has a power weapon rather than a chain sword.

for fun/club games I could not see a problem but for a tornament I don't think it will work

Not even the masking tape idea?

It's not terrible for tournaments.

You have a limited time allotted. Any time wasted asking, getting reminded, trying to remember, takes away from that time and could cause one or the other of you to lose the match. (yes, seconds matter... I watched someone lose a match because he didn't have time to do his turn that consisted of only a single CC of 10 men vs 1 - literally a 30 second affair)
Plus, there's a lot going on in my mind when playing in a tournament. Having to remember 1, 2, 3 or more different things, per army I face, is annoying. Be courteous and model upgrades.

I'm for it when it comes down to unique weapons things which you actually have pieces for. For example, I need to see a meltagun if my enemy has one. I do not necessarily need to see meltabombs.

I think that WYSIWYG should be applied generally in any kind of game. I was playing a friendly game in which my opponent left a bolter space on his bikes empty and claimed they had meltaguns. That was just plain bad from a gaming and modelling point of view.

I wouldn't play you. Not in a tournament, not in a friendly game.

Sounds harsh? Well, I think it is just common courtesy to show any and all equipment on your models and not force your opponent to have to remember your unit's loadouts.

So you have three squads of suits on the field, each equipped differently, maybe even every suit, and it isn't shown on the model - you really think I can remember that?

And having to ask you what they've got in mid-game may reveal my plans to you, too, aside from simply being annoying and leading to oversights and thus tactical mistakes that would not happen had you modelled your suits according to the rules you chose for them.

Forget it. Sure, if it's something very simple, like all your FW squads having a single grenade type that is not represented on the models - fine, I can deal with that. But several different models having their weapons counts as something other than they are is too complex, and I do not want to have to think about gak like that during a game, plus it reduces the coolness factor if we don't use models that look like what they represent - that is the point of playing with miniatures after all.

I don't agree with it at all. It's just another form of the elitism that's plaguing all types of gaming these days.

It's also a scam by GW to force players to spend more money on different iterations of the same model. How many articles on GW's website mention WYSIWIG? Zilch. Yes, you can buy magnets, but does GW sell them? No. Hey, I wonder why that is...

How many new players do you think are told about WYSIWIG by the store attendant when they purchase their first battleforce? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say not one.

So some 12-year-old has saved up their pocket money to buy 500 points of whatever, spent the time to glue and paint said models, then comes along to your gaming club one night.

If you and your buddies refuse to play them because a couple of models don't match their list, then not only are you a jerk but you've potentially cost GW a life-long customer.

Ulthanashville wrote:I don't agree with it at all. It's just another form of the elitism that's plaguing all types of gaming these days.

It's also a scam by GW to force players to spend more money on different iterations of the same model. How many articles on GW's website mention WYSIWIG? Zilch. Yes, you can buy magnets, but does GW sell them? No. Hey, I wonder why that is...

How many new players do you think are told about WYSIWIG by the store attendant when they purchase their first battleforce? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say not one.

So some 12-year-old has saved up their pocket money to buy 500 points of whatever, spent the time to glue and paint said models, then comes along to your gaming club one night.

If you and your buddies refuse to play them because a couple of models don't match their list, then not only are you a jerk but you've potentially cost GW a life-long customer.

Not that GW needs that customer, as WYSIWYG probably makes them a pretty penny..

-Loki- wrote:Weapon upgrades, I'm for sticking with WYSIWYG.

Non-weapon upgrades and grenades (things like melta bombs, adamantine mantle, bionics, etc) I'm not too fussed about as long as it's perfectly clear when the game starts what has what.

I'm not going to get annoyed if someone decides to run an adamantine mantle on a character without a cape or put melta bombs on an assault squad without showing melta bombs on the models, because these are upgrades people will likely change game to game. Just as long as there's some identifying mark on the squad if there are multiples of it (say, 2 assault squads but only one has melta bombs) so confusion mid-game is cut down.

Though, as I said, I draw the line at weapons. Weapon upgrades should be represented, at least if it's a common occurance. If someone wants to proxy a Marine with a heavy bolter as a Marine with a Lascannon to give it a try, go for it, as long as they intend to make a Marine with a Lascannon if they intend to keep using it.

This! Although, I can live with weapons being different as long as they are all different the same way (if that squad's flamer is a meltagun, then every flamer should be a meltagun).

Ulthanashville wrote:I don't agree with it at all. It's just another form of the elitism that's plaguing all types of gaming these days.

It's also a scam by GW to force players to spend more money on different iterations of the same model. How many articles on GW's website mention WYSIWIG? Zilch. Yes, you can buy magnets, but does GW sell them? No. Hey, I wonder why that is...

How many new players do you think are told about WYSIWIG by the store attendant when they purchase their first battleforce? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say not one.

So some 12-year-old has saved up their pocket money to buy 500 points of whatever, spent the time to glue and paint said models, then comes along to your gaming club one night.

If you and your buddies refuse to play them because a couple of models don't match their list, then not only are you a jerk but you've potentially cost GW a life-long customer.

Evil GW for wanting people to enjoy the game, really. Look, I am at the moment not really making a lot of money, and certainly not enough to buy everything as many times as there are weapon options. And I do not use magnets much. But you know what? I can simply live with none of my current tac squads having a meltagun. I don't get less enjoyment from the game because I cannot use one. Hell, if I needed to use one so badly, I'd rip the plasmagun from one of my models and replace it with a melta. It's a matter of an hour to get that back to painted.

That poor, poor 12-year-old can very easily play a list that is wysiwyg with his models. That the poor, poor 12-year-old just spent all his hard-earned cash on the battleforce has nothing to do with whether he plays wysiwyg or not. If he tells me he didn't know about wysiwyg (and if it is, in fact, believable), I certainly won't stop the game in the middle of turn 4. But I'd tell him to read up on it and adhere to it next time.

I am not a jerk for wanting to enjoy my game any more than anyone whose opinion on this matter differs and who wants to enjoy trying out lots of options without changing his models all the time. Our way to enjoy the game simply differs and we will not become gamer buddies. No need for calling me a jerk, and if you are not a jerk, sir, you will see this and apologize.

You might as well get used to strictly representing all upgrades (except grenades) on your models.

Rules or not, it will make your future gaming life soooo much easier, if not a little more bereft of money.

I'm strict about weapons, but relaxed about other things.
If you want to play a game against me, I expect all the weapons in the unit/on the models to be accurate.

My army is kinda lax on WYSIWYG, so I don't think I could play in many tournaments. So of my Plague Marines have two close combat weapons, the vast majority of them still have true grit (even though they lost that rule with Codex: Spiky Marines), some are possessed miniatures with mold, ect. I only play friendly games though, and I usually explain to my opponent, "All of these guys are normal Plague Marines" prior to the game. I'd be a jerk if I didn't.

Ok I can totally agree with demanding a higher standard for tournaments, such as having the actual gun represented by the actual gun its supposed to be.
But I am more like that 12 year old, only not 12 lol I started the hobby as just modeling before I got into the game play and didn't find out about WYSIWYG until later. In fact it took me a while to just figure out which bits represented which weapon because I didn't get a codex until I wanted to start playing matches.
So I personally am not to strict with WYSIWYG. I say if you have the weapon represented, even if it is by the wrong weapon, then I am good to play. I do not know a lot of the bits for most other armies, so it is not like I could tell the difference anyways.
An you would never really play a game with me skylifter? :(
As I said the weapons are represented on each suit, they are just not the right ones I can understand this as being a problem for tournaments. I feel bad so most of the time I do what you do and just play them as is. But if my opponent knows nothing about the tau codex or what the weapons look like what difference to him does it make if the right weapon is not represented? You guys see what I am getting at?

Remember that some people want WYSIWYG is casual games too because they want an astetically pleasing game, and having to constantly get reminded whats what detracts from the appearence.

one or two weapons that are different is ok, but to do it with an entire army is kinda tacky and can convey a sense that you don't care about these things.

If my opponent's army doesn't have a single tournament-worthy model in their army I won't be impressed, I meant even point and laugh; but providing that their army has roughly accurate proxies (eg. every melta is a flamer, the Crisis Suits are Meganobs) and they have a printed list with them so that they can't cheat, I'll still gladly play a match with them because the last time I checked- I'm not a GW sales rep and thus I feel no obligation to peddle their wares.

Of course