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They are way overcosted at the moment in Codex: Space Marines.

I'd much rather have Predators or Vindicators for less points than it takes to make a decent Devastator Squad.

Mannahnin wrote: You will need to actually model combi-meltas for any guys who are equipped with them, in most tournaments. There are tournaments out there which don't require WYSIWYG, but they tend to be small local ones.

I figured as much... sigh. Just need to come up with 9 Melta bits or things that look like melta bits. Heh. (or not use Combi Meltas :()

Yup. There would be more sternguard and more double autocannon dreads on the tables of the world if they just came in ready-to-go kits.

lledwey wrote:What I'll never understand is how people play a game that involves building and painting models, and yet do not care about whether or not their models are built properly or painted. If you just want to fight stuff, go play a video game. If you're going to take the time to play a miniatures game, put in the tiny amount of effort it takes to build your stuff properly. Rip the guns off and replace them with what you actually want. If you don't have the proper guns, trade for them or convert. I'd suggest buying them but apparently spending money on an expensive hobby is a travesty.

Go play Starcraft if you don't want to take the time to model your army.

I don't know how someone can claim that they care about their models appearance in this game, and would at the same time suggest breaking your models intentionally.

Mannahnin wrote:Yup. There would be more sternguard and more double autocannon dreads on the tables of the world if they just came in ready-to-go kits.

Bah, Sternguard are worth their points even without Combi-Meltas. And really, they can be made out of a tactical squad if you aren't giving them anything special. Give them white shoulderpads and helmets if you use Ultramarines.

Autocannon Dreads though... Good luck >.>

Kaldor wrote:You're only reading part of the equation.

If I put effort into my army, I expect my opponent to do the same, and if he does not I am less likely to engage in a game with him.

Just the same as, I put effort into my appearance, and I expect others to do the same, and I am less likely to engage in social interaction with people that don't.

People can dress however they want, and paint their armies however they want, but I don't have to like it and I don't have to play them, and I'm certainly allowed to post on forums telling them what I think of them and their 'peasant' models.

As opposed to you only only quoting part of my post, as well as apparently only reading part of my post.

At least have the courtesy to quote what I actually posted and respond to that.

Oppressor wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
It also looks better, and I want to play against visually appealing armies.

I put the effort into my army, is it too much to ask the same from you?

To play devil's advocate, yes it is.

I put effort into my personal appearence, is it too much to ask the same from others? Yes, it is.

Unless it is a rule, guidlines are just that, guidelines. It is a courtesy, one that I partake in, and hope that others do as well. They are free to not partake, and I am free to choose to not deal with them if I wish, just as you are. But neither of us are allowed to outright ask of them to do so, and if we were to, we're openning ourselves up to their response, and must be ok with both receiving their response as well as respecting their decision. Just as they must be of ours. That can be too much though, as simply asking can instantly imply wrong doing, which puts the person asked at a disadvantage and on the defensive in their mind, as they fend off a perceived attack against their beliefs. This should be avoided, unless what they are doing is dangerous or harmfull to either themselves or especially others, as safety is everyone's responsibility.

What we can and should do, is hope that others show common coutesy and follow generally accepted guidlines.









Please do not take anythin I said to heart or personally, I'm just playing point counterpoint.

-Loki- wrote:

lledwey wrote:What I'll never understand is how people play a game that involves building and painting models, and yet do not care about whether or not their models are built properly or painted. If you just want to fight stuff, go play a video game. If you're going to take the time to play a miniatures game, put in the tiny amount of effort it takes to build your stuff properly. Rip the guns off and replace them with what you actually want. If you don't have the proper guns, trade for them or convert. I'd suggest buying them but apparently spending money on an expensive hobby is a travesty.

Go play Starcraft if you don't want to take the time to model your army.

I don't know how someone can claim that they care about their models appearance in this game, and would at the same time suggest breaking your models intentionally.

Why not? It's pretty easy to remove a weapon and doesn't necessarily involve heinous damage to the paintjob. I'm certainly no Golden Daemon-winner, but swapping out a Melta for a Flamer or vice versa is something I've done many times before a tournament. Or swapping a backpack for a jumppack. If I glued it in place I wince a little and make the effort to be gentle (putting a model in the freezer often makes superglue brittle and easy to snap), then I repair the paintjob.

Mannahnin wrote:Why not? It's pretty easy to remove a weapon and doesn't necessarily involve heinous damage to the paintjob.

You use superglue, I assume. I use plastic glue on plastics. Let me tell you, swapping a weapon or arm that's been glued with plastic glue not only damaged the paint job, but sometimes even requires tools to help detach it, causing damage to the model itself.

And before the question 'Why use plastic cement', because I don't know a single person that cares if I proxy a Venom Cannon warrior as a regular Deathspitter warrior for one game (friends or randoms at my FLGS), and I dislike my models breaking in transit.

Oppressor wrote: At least have the courtesy to quote what I actually posted and respond to that.

Sheesh.

You said it was 'too much to ask' to expect people to have the same standards. Which isn't true. Then you went off on some touchy-feely spiel about what we should and shouldn't do.

We CAN tell people off for having crap armies. We SHOULD tell people off for inappropriate proxying. We don't need to be dicks about it though.

-Loki- wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Why not? It's pretty easy to remove a weapon and doesn't necessarily involve heinous damage to the paintjob.

You use superglue, I assume. I use plastic glue on plastics. Let me tell you, swapping a weapon or arm that's been glued with plastic glue not only damaged the paint job, but sometimes even requires tools to help detach it, causing damage to the model itself.

And before the question 'Why use plastic cement', because I don't know a single person that cares if I proxy a Venom Cannon warrior as a regular Deathspitter warrior for one game (friends or randoms at my FLGS), and I dislike my models breaking in transit.

And that's fine. If you played with folks that cared more about WYSIWYG, or more often played with strangers, you'd probably choose to just use the guys as you've modeled them, or build some more models with the loadouts you most prefer to use.

-Loki- wrote:You use superglue, I assume. I use plastic glue on plastics. Let me tell you, swapping a weapon or arm that's been glued with plastic glue not only damaged the paint job, but sometimes even requires tools to help detach it, causing damage to the model itself.

I use plastic glue. It's usually no more difficult to cut through with an exacto knife than the plastic itself.

I just wanted to clarify what I meant, since I did come on a bit harsh:

I'm not suggesting that anyone go pop the arms off of their Goldem Daemon entries to satisfy WYSIWYG, that's silly.

What I'm saying is that if, like most people, you have a tabletop quality army, that you want to use in tournaments, and has a lot of the wrong weapons/wargear/whatever represented, and you just can't be arsed to fix it, then YOU are being lazy. The people asking for WYSIWYG are not being jerks, they are not forcing you. If you CHOOSE (and it is a choice) to play this game competetively, you should accept that people expect your models to represent what they have in your army list. It isn't hard to do.

Nobody is asking you to have a professionally painted army that is perfectly modelled and a joy to look at. Just do it properly. Convert if you have to. Everyone else does it, you can too.

Kaldor wrote:

Oppressor wrote: At least have the courtesy to quote what I actually posted and respond to that.

Sheesh.

You said it was 'too much to ask' to expect people to have the same standards. Which isn't true. Then you went off on some touchy-feely spiel about what we should and shouldn't do.

I posted that because it is true, it actually can be too much to ask. I then went on to explain exactly why. The reason is because a standard is something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example. WYSIWYG is not esteblished by authority (as it is not a rule), and customs as well as general consent differentiate from player to player and region by region. Therefore, you have no right to impose your adhearence to a guidline on others. You do have the ability to avoid them though, like I have already said.

We CAN tell people off for having crap armies.

I never said otherwise.

We SHOULD tell people off for inappropriate proxying.

You honestly believe that everyone's opinions are exactly the same? As you are not an authority on a matter that is not a rule and highly subjective, you have no right to either, just the ability to.

We don't need to be dicks about it though.

You're not exactly proving otherwise.


You also decided to ignore my first post in this thread, explaining my opinion on the matter, the two different times I specifically stated that I was just playing devil's advocate or point counterpoint, and nearly all of what I posted again.

WYSIWYG is only for tournaments. I ask for it in friendly games but I'm not a dick about proxied models.

Wow I honestly was not expecting this to be such a hotly debated topic lol But thanks for the answers everyone, i do appreciate the opinions, even the ones I disagree with.
All in all the best thing is probably just to try and be "courteous", gosh I HATE that word now, to any players ideas. That is what the game is about, making it YOUR own universe. So that would mean trying to have your army as accurate as possible, but also recognizing that proxying and count as, or conversions need to be allowed to an extent. That is really what is the best part about 40k, making your army unique.

Also just another quick Q. I use a squad of 5 pathfinders, but only 3 are pathfinder models. The other 2 are technically FW models with pulse carbines, which look almost exactly the same as the Pathfinders. Surely this could be seen as reasonable. An no I do not plan on ever switching them out, b/c I like the way they look. It is not b/c I am "lazy." The reason is actually the opposite, same with the rest of my conversions. I put a lot of effort into making that pathfinder squad, and to making those FW's into pathfinders. Just the same as someone who used 5 pathfinder models. I just think the deserve the same recognition as any other pathfinder squad. You can like other peoples more, you just gotta recognize that they are not less valuable like so many people who posted on here seem to do.

I mean as long as they state what things are and its semi understandable like no rhino subbing for a land raider. ITs fine with me i undertsand sometimes its hard to get all the bits before you actually get to play

I will confess that I do have laid back demeanor but we do have a guy in the local store that is very vocal about wysiwyg even in friendly games. And he is a jerk about it even if we don't play with him. It's gotten to the point where me and my friend go out of our way to irritate him now just to see him get all pissy. Hey bob look at my new battle wagon. "holds up a rhino". It's my friends rhino for his space marines. He actually went on a 20 min rant about that one lol. Almost got asked to leave the store for annoying paying customers.

I'm sorry but if your gunna be that obnoxious then I have to poke the bear as they say. It's one thing if you don't want to play with more laid back people but it's another to come over an be an overbearing individual when others are playing.

^ Doesn't that classify you as That Guy in this situation?

darkcloud92 wrote:Wow I honestly was not expecting this to be such a hotly debated topic lol But thanks for the answers everyone, i do appreciate the opinions, even the ones I disagree with.
All in all the best thing is probably just to try and be "courteous", gosh I HATE that word now, to any players ideas. That is what the game is about, making it YOUR own universe. So that would mean trying to have your army as accurate as possible, but also recognizing that proxying and count as, or conversions need to be allowed to an extent. That is really what is the best part about 40k, making your army unique.

Also just another quick Q. I use a squad of 5 pathfinders, but only 3 are pathfinder models. The other 2 are technically FW models with pulse carbines, which look almost exactly the same as the Pathfinders. Surely this could be seen as reasonable. An no I do not plan on ever switching them out, b/c I like the way they look. It is not b/c I am "lazy." The reason is actually the opposite, same with the rest of my conversions. I put a lot of effort into making that pathfinder squad, and to making those FW's into pathfinders. Just the same as someone who used 5 pathfinder models. I just think the deserve the same recognition as any other pathfinder squad. You can like other peoples more, you just gotta recognize that they are not less valuable like so many people who posted on here seem to do.

That falls into the realm of Count's As. its not going to result in confusion and the models works in the situation. If you were using an Ork Boy for the same thing then it would be a proxy.

Na I didn't actually use the model. Was tease the other guy.

wowsmash wrote:I will confess that I do have laid back demeanor but we do have a guy in the local store that is very vocal about wysiwyg even in friendly games. And he is a jerk about it even if we don't play with him. It's gotten to the point where me and my friend go out of our way to irritate him now just to see him get all pissy. Hey bob look at my new battle wagon. "holds up a rhino". It's my friends rhino for his space marines. He actually went on a 20 min rant about that one lol. Almost got asked to leave the store for annoying paying customers.

I'm sorry but if your gunna be that obnoxious then I have to poke the bear as they say. It's one thing if you don't want to play with more laid back people but it's another to come over an be an overbearing individual when others are playing.

Lol the guy with the Fry troll avatar would do stuff like that :p
That's my response to most overly vocal people who take things to far as well. No one gets hurt, and you get a couple of cheap laughs at their expense. Trollolololol

@Actinium
...I guess I 'm a jerk I think that's what wysiwyg is, piddly 5 points for a melta bomb and all. Proxy-ing for a test match is perfectly fine of course, but I feel like its only polite in a match with a random person to visually represent *what is expected to be represented, *how its expected to be represented (in base form, not color or style), and not have to be told what things are. Again, I have pretty raw homemade's myself, but I try to make it clearly visible what the things are. Red frags as melta? How would I know that? Melta muzzle stuck on a bolter (doesn't fit, I tried it)? I would probably see that as a combi melta if both barrels were visible (if it was just a melta barrel I might think its a melta ). Now if you painted the word 'melta' on the frag, first I'd shake your steady, steady hand, then I'd play a random game with you and understand its a melta bomb.
Its a question of clarity. I think.

Pardon the and also laugh at my ugly army and losing streak before anybody gets upset

It's hard not to use count as when things like chaos daemons just don't have good model support. Chariot? doesn't exist. Blue scribe? doesn't exist. Herald? Some do, not all of them. skarbrand? nope. fiends are ugly as sin so I typically perfer to proxy. Essentially I think there'd be alot more room to proxy in some armies compared to others. It's virtually impossible to represent things like daemonic gifts without being at least a bit creative (i.e. someone might paint a mark, someone uses a standard, someone paints it green, all non-standard but all probably acceptable)

So some armies like daemons just really lends itself to proxy even in a wysisyg environment and definately will need some explainations before any fight.

Have to agree with that as well. It's a bummer when you have to choose ur army based on which one has more support. I didn't want tyranids or space wolfs when I started because I knew GW didn't have all the models for them :(