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Just wondering, are there any units I do not want to assault with 10 berzerkers + powerfist, supported by two demon princes of slaanesh? Can they take out TH+SS terminators, Thunderwolves, Bloodcrushers, Paladins, Death company...etc?

Anything that goes before you, such as halberd grey knights.

Of course, this is suggesting that both your demon princes will be alive instead of shot to pieces.

As juraigamer said, anyone who attacks before you. This included Howling Banshees, who will attack before you with power weapon attacks...stay away from them.

Joey wrote:As juraigamer said, anyone who attacks before you. This included Howling Banshees, who will attack before you with power weapon attacks...stay away from them.

Banshees are only str 3 ws4? I don't think I've ever had a unit of berzerkers lose to them.

10 howling banshees on the charge will give you 30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds, another 3 with Doom.
So, your Beserker squad now has two guys left. 3 normal attacks, 2 Power Fist (assuming on the sargeant). That gives us ~0.7 dead from normal, ~1.5 dead from power fist. Then the beserkers take 6 wounds, fail two, and are removed as casualties.

You might want to avoid DE wyches as well. They go before you, get (4+) dodge against your attacks, depending on which combat drug and/or number of pain tokens they have they can match you for Strength or WS. Shardnet & impailer guys make you loose attacks and for the same points they can field twice as many of your guys.

Kevlar wrote:Just wondering, are there any units I do not want to assault with 10 berzerkers + powerfist, supported by two demon princes of slaanesh? Can they take out TH+SS terminators, Thunderwolves, Bloodcrushers, Paladins, Death company...etc?

TH+SS = Yes, the berzerkers are very capable of doing this by themselves, assuming it's a 5-man TH/SS squad. A unit can only pass so many 2+ saves, and needing 3s to hit and 3s to wound on the charge with 36 attacks from 9 normal berzerkers, it's doubtful that there'll even be anything left for your skull champion. If you are charged, it's going to be a different story, since you're not wounding on 3s, but you should still kill a good few. Adding Daemon princes to mix just makes it easier.

Thunderwolves = Depends on how many. You're going first if you charge, and hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s with a lot of attacks, against a 3+ armour save. If you are charged, however, and they don't have TH/SS, then it might be tougher, since you're hitting on 3s, but wounding on 5s, and the TWs are wounding on 3s and Rending with 6 attacks each on the charge (assuming two CCWs). Adding Daemon Princes, especially two, will make it a lot easier, since they're hitting and wounding on 3s, but good luck getting them into combat without being blasted down by ML Long Fangs beforehand.

Bloodcrushers = No idea, don't have the Daemon codex.

Paladins = No, not in this lifetime if they have halberds, and if they don't, then with great difficulty. They are essentially two Terminators in one model, boasting two wounds each, a 2+ AS and a 5+ invul (4+ in combat if they have Nemesis Force Swords), as well as preferred enemy against your princes, and any wounds against them force Ld tests with a chance of simply removing it from play, regardless of whether the FWs were activated. It is only 1 test regardless of many wounds were caused, but still. Also, because of Psyk-Out grenades, if you gave your Princes a psychic power then they're striking at I1. Because of the two wounds and sheer amount of wargear options, wound allocation shenanigans will make it incredibly difficult to actually kill any models, too. You're going to have a very hard time here.

Death Company = If you get the charge. If you get the jump on them, then they're nothing but expensive assault marines, the other way around and you can expect to be torn a new one. They are, for all intents and purposes, loyalist Berzerkers, and it will be a sole question of who charges who. With the Daemon princes added to the mix, you can expect to win combat, but that relies on them having not been shot down by razorback spam or anything beforehand.

Joey wrote:10 howling banshees on the charge will give you 30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds, another 3 with Doom.
So, your Beserker squad now has two guys left. 3 normal attacks, 2 Power Fist (assuming on the sargeant). That gives us ~0.7 dead from normal, ~1.5 dead from power fist. Then the beserkers take 6 wounds, fail two, and are removed as casualties.

When did banshees learn to cast doom? If we are bringing in supporting units how did the banshees get the berzerkers out of their land raider? 10 banshees vs 10 berzerkers the berzerkers will always win.

You support the banshees with a farseer and I support the berzerkers with a land raider and a lash prince the berzerkers are always getting the charge, and shooting with pistols before the charge.

Joey wrote:As juraigamer said, anyone who attacks before you. This included Howling Banshees, who will attack before you with power weapon attacks...stay away from them.

I would argue that Banshees aren't a great threat. No Eldar transport allows assaulting after disembarkation if it moved, and if it didn't move, then you have good time to get into cover or blow the fether up. Once you're in cover, the Banshee's #1 strength is completely nullified, as Banshee Masks don't work against the initiative reduction the banshees suffer, since they were designed to work with 4th edition version of cover where the defenders got buffed. Those 10 banshees then need to suffer 3 attacks each from the berzerkers.

Obviously, if you're leaving your berzerkers in clear charge range of banshees, or you charge them, then you're a fethwit and deserve to lose your squad, but aside from that, Eldar have to work harder than most other armies to reach combat, since they're neither able to assault out of moving vehicles (DE and Orks) nor able to weather a turn of shooting (MEQ). There's also the fact that you can simply block the rear hatch if they get too close. Once it's blocked, they have to move the vehicle to get out, and since pivoting counts as moving for disembarkation, the banshees can't assault afterwards.

Avatar 720 wrote:
Obviously, if you're leaving your berzerkers in clear charge range of banshees, or you charge them, then you're a fethwit and deserve to lose your squad,

I wouldn't charge a unit of unmolested banshees normally, but if I did charge a full squad of 10 I think the berzerkers would still win combat, though the unit wouldn't be worth much afterward.

Kevlar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:
Obviously, if you're leaving your berzerkers in clear charge range of banshees, or you charge them, then you're a fethwit and deserve to lose your squad,

I wouldn't charge a unit of unmolested banshees normally, but if I did charge a full squad of 10 I think the berzerkers would still win combat, though the unit wouldn't be worth much afterward.

Bearing in mind the comparative cost of 10 banshees vs 10 berzerkers with a PF Champ, would it really be worth spending 250pts to kill a 160pt squad, leaving your 250pt squad rather hamstrung afterwards?

Avatar 720 wrote:
Bearing in mind the comparative cost of 10 banshees vs 10 berzerkers with a PF Champ, would it really be worth spending 250pts to kill a 160pt squad, leaving your 250pt squad rather hamstrung afterwards?

I guess that depends on the game turn and whether those banshees are near an objective. Normally no though. Didn't realize banshees were that cheap.

Kevlar wrote:

Joey wrote:10 howling banshees on the charge will give you 30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds, another 3 with Doom.
So, your Beserker squad now has two guys left. 3 normal attacks, 2 Power Fist (assuming on the sargeant). That gives us ~0.7 dead from normal, ~1.5 dead from power fist. Then the beserkers take 6 wounds, fail two, and are removed as casualties.

When did banshees learn to cast doom? If we are bringing in supporting units how did the banshees get the berzerkers out of their land raider? 10 banshees vs 10 berzerkers the berzerkers will always win.

You support the banshees with a farseer and I support the berzerkers with a land raider and a lash prince the berzerkers are always getting the charge, and shooting with pistols before the charge.

The OP started it by bringing 1-2 deamon princes with the Zerkers. A lot can change if each side is allowed to bring an HQ.

Two farseers on the board with a squad of banshees vs two lash demon princes and 10 standard berzerkers with a power fist?

Ok, the demon princes aren't getting any powers off. 3d6 says peril.

One farseer dooms and guides the unit, the other uses fortune and mindwar or something.

Both units get stuck into melee. Doesn't matter who charged. Eldar win. Re-rolling to hit, to wound, and they get to re-roll any saves means after wiping out the berzerkers, both demon princes need around a leadership of 3-5 or they fall back.

Eldar will probably catch one, and kill it. Fun times.

Kelvar you are under the impression that your combo is unbeatable. Trust me, it's not as boss as you think.

juraigamer wrote:

Kelvar you are under the impression that your combo is unbeatable. Trust me, it's not as boss as you think.

I don't think its unbeatable at all, I just want to know what to avoid. Obviously Banshees w/doom is one thing. So either kill the farseer, or stay in cover since the banshee masks won't help them then as Avatar kindly pointed out.

Oh and zerkers or dps don't fall back, they are all fearless.

Two lash princes and a unit of seekers is 500+ easy, a similar amount spent on paladins with characters would destroy them

juraigamer wrote:Two farseers on the board with a squad of banshees vs two lash demon princes and 10 standard berzerkers with a power fist?

Ok, the demon princes aren't getting any powers off. 3d6 says peril.

One farseer dooms and guides the unit, the other uses fortune and mindwar or something.

Both units get stuck into melee. Doesn't matter who charged. Eldar win. Re-rolling to hit, to wound, and they get to re-roll any saves means after wiping out the berzerkers, both demon princes need around a leadership of 3-5 or they fall back.

Eldar will probably catch one, and kill it. Fun times.

Kelvar you are under the impression that your combo is unbeatable. Trust me, it's not as boss as you think.

3D6 Does not say peril; average on 3D6 is 10.5.

If one unit is in cover, then it does matter who charged, because Banshees charging Berzerkers in cover strike at I1.

Eldar do not get a re-roll to hit, Guide works with shooting only.

Daemon Princes are Fearless, so will not fall back.

Assuming Banshees did not charge into cover, they get 30 attacks. Assuming against the Berzerkers, 15 hits, 8.33 dead. 2 Daemon princes get 8 attacks total, against the Banshees, 5.336 hits, 4 wounds, 4 dead. 2 Farseers get 3 attacks each assuming Witchblades for 6 attacks, 3 hits, ~3 wounds, and 1 dead Berzerker or 1 wound off a Prince. Last Berzerker is assumed to be the Skull Champion. If two Berzerkers remain, normal guy gets 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, saved thanks to fortune. Skull Champ gets 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wounds and 2 dead.

Banshees have taken 6 wounds, Prince and Berzerkers have taken 9 and lose by 3, taking 3 fearless saves each, meaning 1 berzerker dies and the princes take a wound each.

Next turn, Princes kill a further 4 Banshees, taking a single wound from the Farseers. Farseers lose by 3. Average on 2D6 is 7, so they have a decent chance of sticking around. If they do, then one dies next turn, and if the last one sticks around, he dies in the next combat.

If the berzerkers and princes charged, Banshees get 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5.5 (6) wounds, and 6 Berzerkers die. Princes get 10 attacks total, 6.66 hits, 5.5 (6) wounds, and 6 banshees die. 3 Berzerkers get 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 1 Banshee dies. Farseers get 6 attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 1 Berzerker dies. Skull Champion gets 4 attacks against the Banshees, 2.6 (3) hits, 3 wounds, 3 dead Banshees. All Banshees are dead, farseers lose by 3, and get smushed next turn.

Kevlar wrote:Just wondering, are there any units I do not want to assault with 10 berzerkers + powerfist, supported by two demon princes of slaanesh? Can they take out TH+SS terminators, Thunderwolves, Bloodcrushers, Paladins, Death company...etc?

Unforunately, yes there are. These guys are going to bounce off of most deathstar type units, like paladins w feel no pain and halberds, or thunderwolves with a lord or two. No matter how assaulty you make your assaulty chaos army, there are some units that they can't tackle. This is one of the main reasons it's not a competitive book anymore. That being said, the list of things that will die horribly to the two demon princes and the zerkers is alot longer than the list of things that will live through it. 95% of the time charging with that stuff is the right thing to do. Not that any self-respecting world eater would fight side by side with a demon prince of slaanesh.

My IG power blob could win. 50 conscripts and 50 guard with the PCS and x2 PF commie lords and pf sargs.

Kevlar wrote:

Bloodcrushers = No idea, don't have the Daemon codex.

It comes down to who gets the charge and how many crushers. assume 5 for almost even points and 2 heralds to even out princes. Never mind once you factor in wound allocation crushers would be fine. even if they got charged and would wipe out 10.5 of the Berzerkers and would not take enough wounds to wipe out a model. Unless the slaansh princes are adding something other then their stat line that I don't know about.

kinratha wrote:My IG power blob could win. 50 conscripts and 50 guard with the PCS and x2 PF commie lords and pf sargs.

2 things.

1) I doubt it.

2) That's a lot more than the OP was bringing. You can have your Power weapon sargeants, and your power weapon commissars (even though you never said anything about them, I'm assuming that you know what you are doing and will have a couple). You can have the 50 guardsmen (I've never used/seen a 50 man blob before, but it's possible so go ahead). You can have the 2 power fist lords as well. You cannot have the 50 conscripts (seperate unit, only allowed one troop (notice I did not say troops choice)). Nor can you have the PCS (seperate unit).

10 man berzerker squad with PF champion and 2 slaanesh princes vs 50 man guard blob with commissars w/ PW and sarges w/ PW along with 2 PF commissar lords.

What's the point differentials here? The guard blob would cost ~705pts I believe assuming a commssar per squad. I would say that's a heck of a lot more than the OP is bringing....

Avatar 720 wrote:
Banshees have taken 6 wounds, Prince and Berzerkers have taken 9 and lose by 3, taking 3 fearless saves each, meaning 1 berzerker dies and the princes take a wound each.

Each unit gets 3 fearless wounds; so both DPs and the Beserker unit get 3 fearless wounds each.

Edit: you wrote that, nvm. I need coffee.

Avatar 720 wrote:

If one unit is in cover, then it does matter who charged, because Banshees charging Berzerkers in cover strike at I1.

The banshees will go at int 10 regardless of cover or not. Their banshee mask says so.

Has nobody considered the fact that 'zerkers can shoot before they charge? squad of 10 with bolt pistols can drop at least a few banshees before the charge.
That being said, I think you would be a fool to charge 'zerkers into a squad with power weapons regardless.

Shooting can be actively detrimental if you're looking to charge, since your opponent simply removes the closest models to you and could potentially deny you the charge. If you can ensure that you'll reach combat with all or most of the squad, then go for it, but if you can't, then shooting is very risky.

Avatar 720 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Two farseers on the board with a squad of banshees vs two lash demon princes and 10 standard berzerkers with a power fist?

Ok, the demon princes aren't getting any powers off. 3d6 says peril.

One farseer dooms and guides the unit, the other uses fortune and mindwar or something.

Both units get stuck into melee. Doesn't matter who charged. Eldar win. Re-rolling to hit, to wound, and they get to re-roll any saves means after wiping out the berzerkers, both demon princes need around a leadership of 3-5 or they fall back.

Eldar will probably catch one, and kill it. Fun times.

Kelvar you are under the impression that your combo is unbeatable. Trust me, it's not as boss as you think.

3D6 Does not say peril; average on 3D6 is 10.5.

If one unit is in cover, then it does matter who charged, because Banshees charging Berzerkers in cover strike at I1.

Eldar do not get a re-roll to hit, Guide works with shooting only.

Daemon Princes are Fearless, so will not fall back.

Assuming Banshees did not charge into cover, they get 30 attacks. Assuming against the Berzerkers, 15 hits, 8.33 dead. 2 Daemon princes get 8 attacks total, against the Banshees, 5.336 hits, 4 wounds, 4 dead. 2 Farseers get 3 attacks each assuming Witchblades for 6 attacks, 3 hits, ~3 wounds, and 1 dead Berzerker or 1 wound off a Prince. Last Berzerker is assumed to be the Skull Champion. If two Berzerkers remain, normal guy gets 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, saved thanks to fortune. Skull Champ gets 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wounds and 2 dead.

Banshees have taken 6 wounds, Prince and Berzerkers have taken 9 and lose by 3, taking 3 fearless saves each, meaning 1 berzerker dies and the princes take a wound each.

Next turn, Princes kill a further 4 Banshees, taking a single wound from the Farseers. Farseers lose by 3. Average on 2D6 is 7, so they have a decent chance of sticking around. If they do, then one dies next turn, and if the last one sticks around, he dies in the next combat.

If the berzerkers and princes charged, Banshees get 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5.5 (6) wounds, and 6 Berzerkers die. Princes get 10 attacks total, 6.66 hits, 5.5 (6) wounds, and 6 banshees die. 3 Berzerkers get 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 1 Banshee dies. Farseers get 6 attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 1 Berzerker dies. Skull Champion gets 4 attacks against the Banshees, 2.6 (3) hits, 3 wounds, 3 dead Banshees. All Banshees are dead, farseers lose by 3, and get smushed next turn.

You didnt factor in the str 5 exarch w 3 attacks (or str 3 w 5 attacks), and you still have spent WAY more points on your combo than the eldar

Why would I factor in a model that wasn't included in the original discussion?

Also, it isn't my combo, i'm just doing the maths to try and prove that the Dual Farseer + Banshees combination is not as lethal to the DP+KB combo as was implied.

Also, for the record, assuming both farseers had spirit stones (not many Eldar players would take two powers and not the means to use both, so it's a logical assumption), the Eldar combo only costs 60pts less, so it is not "WAY" more.

Grey Knights

Avatar 720 wrote:

Joey wrote:As juraigamer said, anyone who attacks before you. This included Howling Banshees, who will attack before you with power weapon attacks...stay away from them.

I would argue that Banshees aren't a great threat. No Eldar transport allows assaulting after disembarkation if it moved, and if it didn't move, then you have good time to get into cover or blow the fether up. Once you're in cover, the Banshee's #1 strength is completely nullified, as Banshee Masks don't work against the initiative reduction the banshees suffer, since they were designed to work with 4th edition version of cover where the defenders got buffed. Those 10 banshees then need to suffer 3 attacks each from the berzerkers.

Obviously, if you're leaving your berzerkers in clear charge range of banshees, or you charge them, then you're a fethwit and deserve to lose your squad, but aside from that, Eldar have to work harder than most other armies to reach combat, since they're neither able to assault out of moving vehicles (DE and Orks) nor able to weather a turn of shooting (MEQ). There's also the fact that you can simply block the rear hatch if they get too close. Once it's blocked, they have to move the vehicle to get out, and since pivoting counts as moving for disembarkation, the banshees can't assault afterwards.

So the Chaos player isn't going to be in charge range of eldar...but the eldar player is going to leave his elite T3 4+ infantry in the cover waiting to be charged? And if I had a penny for every time Eldar charged a unit that wasn't doomed I'd be very poor indeed. Eldar rely on spells entirely.
It's a reasonable assumption that the charged unit will be doomed. It's also a reasonable assumption that Howling Banshees will rip Khorne Beserkers to shreds. If you can pop their transport (difficult) and get them on the charge then fair play to you. But that's not going to happen often.

Try using a Necron Monolith or 2