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Joey wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

Joey wrote:As juraigamer said, anyone who attacks before you. This included Howling Banshees, who will attack before you with power weapon attacks...stay away from them.

I would argue that Banshees aren't a great threat. No Eldar transport allows assaulting after disembarkation if it moved, and if it didn't move, then you have good time to get into cover or blow the fether up. Once you're in cover, the Banshee's #1 strength is completely nullified, as Banshee Masks don't work against the initiative reduction the banshees suffer, since they were designed to work with 4th edition version of cover where the defenders got buffed. Those 10 banshees then need to suffer 3 attacks each from the berzerkers.

Obviously, if you're leaving your berzerkers in clear charge range of banshees, or you charge them, then you're a fethwit and deserve to lose your squad, but aside from that, Eldar have to work harder than most other armies to reach combat, since they're neither able to assault out of moving vehicles (DE and Orks) nor able to weather a turn of shooting (MEQ). There's also the fact that you can simply block the rear hatch if they get too close. Once it's blocked, they have to move the vehicle to get out, and since pivoting counts as moving for disembarkation, the banshees can't assault afterwards.

So the Chaos player isn't going to be in charge range of eldar...but the eldar player is going to leave his elite T3 4+ infantry in the cover waiting to be charged? And if I had a penny for every time Eldar charged a unit that wasn't doomed I'd be very poor indeed. Eldar rely on spells entirely.
It's a reasonable assumption that the charged unit will be doomed. It's also a reasonable assumption that Howling Banshees will rip Khorne Beserkers to shreds. If you can pop their transport (difficult) and get them on the charge then fair play to you. But that's not going to happen often.

No, where did I say that? If you meant the part about cover nullifying the banshee's best asset, then that refers to enemy units in cover, not banshees; enemy units in cover being charged by banshees will strike before them, since the banshee masks do not work against 5th edition cover, and they do not have plasma grenades.

It is also not a reasonable assumption that Banshees will rip Berzerkers to shreds, it heavily depends on other factors. In a vacuum, Berzerkers win, with them causing 5 wounds to the banshees 3 in the first round (assuming nobody charged, since this is a vacuum test) and going on to win, albeit taking heavy casualties. If Banshees charge Berzerkers out of cover, they kill 5 Berzerkers and take 3 casualties back, in the second round, they kill 2 and the Berzerkers kill 2. Next round, Banshees kill 1.665, rounding to 2, and kill the last berzerker. If they charged Berzerkers who are in cover, Berzerkers go first with 30 Attacks, 20 hits, 13.34 wounds, and kill 6.67, rounding to 7. Remaining 3 Banshees hit with 4.5, wound with 1.4985, rounding to 1 dead Berzerker, and Berzerkers win by a lot. If the Berzerkers charge Banshees (whether in cover or out, it doesn't matter since they will always go after the Banshees), Banshees kill 3, and the remaining 7 Berzerkers have 28 attacks, 18.676 hits, 15.557108 wounds, for 7.778554 dead Banshees, rounding to 8, and the Berzerkers will win.

If the Berzerkers are Doomed and charged out of cover, the Banshees kill 6.665, rounding to 7, and the Berzerkers kill 2 in return. Banshees will win. If they are charged whilst in cover and Doomed, Berzerkers kill 7, and the remaining 3 Banshees score 1.9975005 wounds, killing 2 Berzerkers, but the Berzerkers will kill the rest next combat. If the Berzerkers charge, Banshees kill 4.43889, rounding to 4, Berzerkers kill 6.667332, rounding to 7; second round, Banshees kill 1, and the remaining Berzerkers kill the last 3.

Banshees will only win the combat if they charge the Berzerkers and the Berzerkers are out of cover, although they will reduce the Berzerkers to half their original squad size if Doomed Berzerkers charge them.

Right but compare that to other units that the OP listed.
Compare this to something expensive and scary, like Thunder Hammer/Storm Sheild Termies.
On the charge, beserkers get 40 attacks, 26 hits, 17 wounds, 3 dead. 2 termies strike back, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.6 dead.
Assuming termie passes his armour save, Besererks go first again, 30 attacks, 20 hit, 10 wound, 1.6 dead. Assuming there's one left, he does 2 attacks, 0.8 dead. Khorne kills him off in the next turn. That's a squad of termies dead for 2 losses.

I already know how they do against TH/SS, i've done it regularly enough in-game that I don't have to math-hammer it anymore

I didn't say that Banshees suck, I was just trying to show that they don't completely rip berzerkers as much of a new one as people seem to think.

Banshees are quite powerful for 160pts, provided you can get them into combat, which is one of the drawbacks. Either they footslog and get torn apart by shooting, or they chance being thrown at enemy lines in a Wave Serpent and hope they don't have to charge into cover, if they can leave their transport and charge at all, given that Serpents only have the one access point.

I humbly submit this for the forums approval:

Kaskrin123 wrote:
Best Assault unit? well 30 death comp + astoraph + lemartes all death comp apart from 10 have power weapons, other 10 have thunder hammers, 15 of them also have hand flamers and the other 15 infernus pistols, that my friends is on the charge 98 power weapon attacks with 68 of them at i5 or 6. then before that you have 15 flamer shots into them and 15 melta pistols. No unit in the game can stand up to that imho.

sub-zero wrote:I humbly submit this for the forums approval:

Kaskrin123 wrote:
Best Assault unit? well 30 death comp + astoraph + lemartes all death comp apart from 10 have power weapons, other 10 have thunder hammers, 15 of them also have hand flamers and the other 15 infernus pistols, that my friends is on the charge 98 power weapon attacks with 68 of them at i5 or 6. then before that you have 15 flamer shots into them and 15 melta pistols. No unit in the game can stand up to that imho.

30 Death Company on foot will be laughably easy to kill. And they have Rage so it's the easiest thing to send a sacrificial unit their way.
Hell if you threw a scatter at that it'd be impossible to miss. Now recall that each of those under it cost ~35 points.
It'd be like bringing Arnold Schwarzenegger to a gun fight. Huge, yeah. But he's gonna get a shotgun to the face...

Joey wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I humbly submit this for the forums approval:

Kaskrin123 wrote:
Best Assault unit? well 30 death comp + astoraph + lemartes all death comp apart from 10 have power weapons, other 10 have thunder hammers, 15 of them also have hand flamers and the other 15 infernus pistols, that my friends is on the charge 98 power weapon attacks with 68 of them at i5 or 6. then before that you have 15 flamer shots into them and 15 melta pistols. No unit in the game can stand up to that imho.

30 Death Company on foot will be laughably easy to kill. And they have Rage so it's the easiest thing to send a sacrificial unit their way.
Hell if you threw a scatter at that it'd be impossible to miss. Now recall that each of those under it cost ~35 points.
It'd be like bringing Arnold Schwarzenegger to a gun fight. Huge, yeah. But he's gonna get a shotgun to the face...

Actually only 20 pts. per marine before weapon upgrades and the OP was talking about DPs and zerkers, not a "sacrificial" squad. But if you send in the DP's and zerkers, i guess that they would be just that. LMAO

"10 have power weapons, other 10 have thunder hammers, 15 of them also have hand flamers and the other 15 infernus pistols"
So 10 are 35, 10 are 50. The ones with Hand Flamers are 30, ones with infernus are 35, and some of them will overlap so some of them could be 65 points a model. A Manticore could get its point value back twice over in a single volley. They'd be laughably easy to kill.

Joey wrote:"10 have power weapons, other 10 have thunder hammers, 15 of them also have hand flamers and the other 15 infernus pistols"
So 10 are 35, 10 are 50. The ones with Hand Flamers are 30, ones with infernus are 35, and some of them will overlap so some of them could be 65 points a model. A Manticore could get its point value back twice over in a single volley. They'd be laughably easy to kill.

Laughably easy??? Me thinks you need to cut down on the malted beverages sir. lol And like I said 20 pts. (before weapon upgrades).

Banshee masks says that banshees are initiative 10 the turn they charge, and specific rules > than general rules.

So being initiative 10 trumps the charge into cover rules.

scuddman wrote:Banshee masks says that banshees are initiative 10 the turn they charge, and specific rules > than general rules.

So being initiative 10 trumps the charge into cover rules.

No.

First off they say they count as Initiative 10 in the first round of an assault.

Secondly, cover is more specific:

Page 36 under 'Assaulting Through Cover':

"...To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1 regardless of other initiative modifiers..."

Emphasis mine.

Avatar 720 wrote:

scuddman wrote:Banshee masks says that banshees are initiative 10 the turn they charge, and specific rules > than general rules.

So being initiative 10 trumps the charge into cover rules.

No.

First off they say they count as Initiative 10 in the first round of an assault.

Secondly, cover is more specific:

Page 36 under 'Assaulting Through Cover':

"...To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1 regardless of other initiative modifiers..."

Emphasis mine.

The rules contradict. On the one hand, specific rules are sacracinct. On the other, you're told to ignore specific rules. Logic error.

Banshee Masks are an initiative modifier, the cover rules specifically tell you to ignore them, whereas Banshee Maks do not allow you to ignore anything bar grenades and cover bonuses granted to the attacker.

Banshee Mask: "In the first round of an assault a model wearing a Banshee Mask has Initiative 10 and negates any initiative bonus conferred by cover or grenades."

Where in that are you allowed to ignore the cover rules?

Avatar 720 wrote:Where in that are you allowed to ignore the cover rules?

"In the first round of an assault a model wearing a Banshee Mask has Initiative 10". Assaulting through cover is not mentioned.

Joey wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Where in that are you allowed to ignore the cover rules?

"In the first round of an assault a model wearing a Banshee Mask has Initiative 10". Assaulting through cover is not mentioned.

Exactly, it is not mentioned, therefore you have been given no permission to ignore it.

Your Banshee will become I10 thanks to the mask, and then will become I1 thanks to assaulting through cover, regardless of modifiers.

This many posts of rules argument and no one troubles to open the codex? The Banshee masks specifically say that they trump cover.

Joey wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I humbly submit this for the forums approval:

Kaskrin123 wrote:
Best Assault unit? well 30 death comp + astoraph + lemartes all death comp apart from 10 have power weapons, other 10 have thunder hammers, 15 of them also have hand flamers and the other 15 infernus pistols, that my friends is on the charge 98 power weapon attacks with 68 of them at i5 or 6. then before that you have 15 flamer shots into them and 15 melta pistols. No unit in the game can stand up to that imho.

30 Death Company on foot will be laughably easy to kill. And they have Rage so it's the easiest thing to send a sacrificial unit their way.
Hell if you threw a scatter at that it'd be impossible to miss. Now recall that each of those under it cost ~35 points.
It'd be like bringing Arnold Schwarzenegger to a gun fight. Huge, yeah. But he's gonna get a shotgun to the face...

Easy to kill? Since when are 30 MEQs with FnP easy to kill? Easy to bait, maybe, but what are you talking about?

Plus, you could either split them up and put them in a transport or you could give them jetpacks.

Practically, never rely on Banshees going last when they charge your Berzerkers into cover. The intent of the rule was obviously that they ignore cover (even though its a penalty instead of a benefit now), furthermore I've never actually played against anybody who has ever told me that the banshees go last after they look at the codex entry, and a lot of these are local tournament players.

If the eldar player has banshees, you're best bet is to shoot them to death. Also never count on land raiders. I don't think I've ever seen a good eldar list without at least 2 squads of Fire Dragons...

Mannahnin wrote:This many posts of rules argument and no one troubles to open the codex? The Banshee masks specifically say that they trump cover.

No, they say that they negate bonuses conferred by cover; in 5th edition, there are no bonuses there to negate, instead, the attacker is penalised. Nowhere in the Banshee Masks rule does it state that they trump cover.

I've always played Banshee Masks trump cover. I think it's the most popular opinion.
It's supported by the rules, anyway. Specific rule always trumps general. Banshees always strike at Initiative 10 in the first round of combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TedNugent wrote:

Joey wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I humbly submit this for the forums approval:

Kaskrin123 wrote:
Best Assault unit? well 30 death comp + astoraph + lemartes all death comp apart from 10 have power weapons, other 10 have thunder hammers, 15 of them also have hand flamers and the other 15 infernus pistols, that my friends is on the charge 98 power weapon attacks with 68 of them at i5 or 6. then before that you have 15 flamer shots into them and 15 melta pistols. No unit in the game can stand up to that imho.

30 Death Company on foot will be laughably easy to kill. And they have Rage so it's the easiest thing to send a sacrificial unit their way.
Hell if you threw a scatter at that it'd be impossible to miss. Now recall that each of those under it cost ~35 points.
It'd be like bringing Arnold Schwarzenegger to a gun fight. Huge, yeah. But he's gonna get a shotgun to the face...

Easy to kill? Since when are 30 MEQs with FnP easy to kill? Easy to bait, maybe, but what are you talking about?

Plus, you could either split them up and put them in a transport or you could give them jetpacks.

Well, they are for IG. Any Heavy support will rip them to shred. 6 Basilisks could probably wipe out most of them in a single turn.
Remember that unless your opponant messes up, you can only charge ONE unit per turn. There's a good chance you'll destroy it so pretty much every turn you'll be vulnerable to huge amounts of firepower.
The unit costs 1500 points...so 1500 points of dakka will be shooting it, outflanking it, and controlling where it moves. DC are not durable enough to deathstar in numbers like that, they have no invulnerable and a 3+ save. Any serious shooting will ignore FNP, no one relies on bolters/lasguns to bring down MEQ anyway.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:This many posts of rules argument and no one troubles to open the codex? The Banshee masks specifically say that they trump cover.

No, they say that they negate bonuses conferred by cover; in 5th edition, there are no bonuses there to negate, instead, the attacker is penalised. ,

This is ignoring the meaning of the rule in favor of a misapplication of RAW.

Avatar 720 wrote:Nowhere in the Banshee Masks rule does it state that they trump cover.

It does by saying exactly what we've both referenced.

I disagree entirely, but I doubt one of us will be able to convince the other that they are wrong, so i'm voting to move on, since the topic has deviated enough.

So Much Hurry up and make a YMDC thread

TedNugent wrote:

Easy to kill? Since when are 30 MEQs with FnP easy to kill? Easy to bait, maybe, but what are you talking about?

30 marines that move with rage and are pretty easy to clump up, and give me lots of points to deal with...

First unit is the bait, second unit is the vindicators. Wounds on 2+, no saves. It really isn't that hard...


...in a vacuum