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Since I'd finally painted up enough to actually fight some battles, I was playing my SoB versus my brother's Blood Angels.

I ran into a problem. Specifically: Dreadnoughts.

Once they come into close combat I basically have to rely on meltabombs and krak grenades, since I don't have any walkers myself yet (Penitent Engines). The chances of actually hitting and then glancing with krak grenade aren't very good. And only a few models can actually take meltabombs. It is worse when you deal with AV13 dreadnoughts, since only the meltabombs can even hurt them. Hitting the front armor is a major bummer.

My question, how do I deal with dreadnoughts (and especially ones like Furioso Dreadnoughts) in close combat. You can't always count on destroying it with shooting, especially given the amount of long range fire power SoB have (or rather not have).

Shandara wrote:My question, how do I deal with dreadnoughts (and especially ones like Furioso Dreadnoughts) in close combat.

You don't deal with them in combat. They will squash you. The only way for SoB to deal with heavy walkers is either meltabombs (very unreliable), or eviscerators (expensive and really only useful for this one situation)

You can't always count on destroying it with shooting, especially given the amount of long range fire power SoB have (or rather not have).

I'm afraid you do have to rely on bringing them down with shooting. Not knowing what models you have available makes it difficult to give you any specific advice, in general you should have enough melta weaponry to reliably damage/destroy dreadnoughts either through your dominon squads if he puts the dreads on the front line, or your BSS/Exorcists if he decides to drop pod them.

I suggest you have a search for SoB tactics in this forum, then maybe ask your friend if you can proxy a few meltaguns/exorcists for a game or 2

J.Black wrote:I'm afraid you do have to rely on bringing them down with shooting. Not knowing what models you have available makes it difficult to give you any specific advice, in general you should have enough melta weaponry to reliably damage/destroy dreadnoughts either through your dominon squads if he puts the dreads on the front line, or your BSS/Exorcists if he decides to drop pod them.

SoB do not have any good tools for dealing with walkers in close combat. Your best option is to bring as many Melta weapons as you can as soon as one threatens to charge your lines. With the amount of Melta/AP1 guns Sisters can field - on their tanks and infantry - shooting really is your best option. Either that or get used to maneuvering around their charge ranges.

Shandara wrote:Since I'd finally painted up enough to actually fight some battles, I was playing my SoB versus my brother's Blood Angels.

I ran into a problem. Specifically: Dreadnoughts.

Once they come into close combat I basically have to rely on meltabombs and krak grenades, since I don't have any walkers myself yet (Penitent Engines). The chances of actually hitting and then glancing with krak grenade aren't very good. And only a few models can actually take meltabombs. It is worse when you deal with AV13 dreadnoughts, since only the meltabombs can even hurt them. Hitting the front armor is a major bummer.

My question, how do I deal with dreadnoughts (and especially ones like Furioso Dreadnoughts) in close combat. You can't always count on destroying it with shooting, especially given the amount of long range fire power SoB have (or rather not have).

This is when a Sisters of Repentia Squad is at its best. Taking 1 or 2 small units of them can react to a Dreadnought. What I do i put a MM in the sister squads to deter the drop of the dread around them. With either a PE or SoR you would need to pin them in the back field so they are there to support the back line. Other than that you have to shoot them before they make it into your squads.

dreads stomp us...

best to get an evisorator swinging seraphim vet if you really can't do much... this way you can hit an run if you're failing at killing it

frgsinwntr wrote:dreads stomp us...

best to get an evisorator swinging seraphim vet if you really can't do much... this way you can hit an run if you're failing at killing it

Thats another good option.

Truth be told... bring melta guns, lots of melta guns... on many many units... and pray to the god-emperor you can kill the dread before it charges...

frgsinwntr wrote:dreads stomp us...

best to get an evisorator swinging seraphim vet if you really can't do much... this way you can hit an run if you're failing at killing it

That's assuming a lot - you have a 50/50 chance of succeeding at Hit and Run, so you may just end up being stuck. You also stand a reasonable chance of losing combat having the entire squad killed by Sweeping Advance. Seems like an awful risk for a couple of Eviscerator swings.

Your primary line of defense is Meltaguns. Load up on them and keep them ready to intercept walkers before they can bury themselves in assault.

Surely this is what Exorcists are for? The meltas are just there in case the Exorcists let the things past the outer marker.

J.Black wrote:

Shandara wrote:My question, how do I deal with dreadnoughts (and especially ones like Furioso Dreadnoughts) in close combat.

You don't deal with them in combat. They will squash you. The only way for SoB to deal with heavy walkers is either meltabombs (very unreliable), or eviscerators (expensive and really only useful for this one situation)

You can't always count on destroying it with shooting, especially given the amount of long range fire power SoB have (or rather not have).

I'm afraid you do have to rely on bringing them down with shooting. Not knowing what models you have available makes it difficult to give you any specific advice, in general you should have enough melta weaponry to reliably damage/destroy dreadnoughts either through your dominon squads if he puts the dreads on the front line, or your BSS/Exorcists if he decides to drop pod them.

I suggest you have a search for SoB tactics in this forum, then maybe ask your friend if you can proxy a few meltaguns/exorcists for a game or 2

Answered in one. I concur with J.Black's assessment entirely.

Thanks for all the input.

My Exorcists (I have 2 painted up) haven't been very.. uh.. reliable so far. Apart from the random nature of their shots, it's still only a S8 weapon vs AV12 or AV13.

Part of the reason I asked was that in my last game a Furioso ended up in combat with my battle conclave and even though they didn't break they were tied up for the rest of the game, with me just attempting a single meltabomb attack each combat round.

I'm not really convinced an eviscerator is much use (S6 I1 attacjs compared to say krak grenades from an entire squad) in this instance. I guess I'll just have to make it my priority to shoot the dreadnoughts down and/or sacrifice a unit to take one down with meltaguns.

the evicerator is 2d6 + 6str for the armor pen. It's another melta bomb essentially but you can get more than one attack out of it each turn.

Also, small squads of sisters getting charged behave like IG in most respects. Just let them all die to shoot the dreadnaught on the subsequent turn.

you use the many meltas that you DID bring right

Do not rely on PE's to kill walkers, they are I3, which means a dread will crush them before they can swing most of the time.

calypso2ts wrote:Do not rely on PE's to kill walkers, they are I3, which means a dread will crush them before they can swing most of the time.

Most of the time PEs destroy Dreads on a very regular basis. He will have 2 or 3 attacks lets just say 2 I run 2 PEs and they will hit the Dread on my turn needing 4s to hit. If it has a CC weapon hes Str 10 1s glance 2s pen so on the average he will hit once and punch most of the time. The PEs have 6++ and 16% of the time you are going to ignore the punch all together. On a roll of 3 he is going to wreck 1 of the squadron OK so I lost 85 pnts 40% of the time. I now get a minimum of 3 attacks, average 7, coming from 1 engine I'll hit with 3 to 4 based on the law of averages. Punching with 2 to or 3 which he has no ability to shrug off. I now have a 60% chance to make his dread ineffective in CC where the PE will finish him off in the opponents turn which is preferable. He has lost 100 plus pnt dread and I can continue on to taking out an immobilized open topped drop pod where I will auto hit and punch 80% of my attacks. A very large majority of the times the engines will pay for themselves in just 1 Rnd of CC if I can 1) disable or destroy an imminent threat to my back line scoring units 2) clear Objectives of contesting pods that I don't want to waste shooting on. 3) In a KP game I am taking 2 Kps and the opponent will have picked up none.

The key to PEs is controlling them to make them do what you want them too. If you just let them run around the board then you aren't going to make up the Pnts you spent. If you can release them into a target then they will get the job done a large percentage of the time.


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Shandara wrote:Thanks for all the input.

My Exorcists (I have 2 painted up) haven't been very.. uh.. reliable so far. Apart from the random nature of their shots, it's still only a S8 weapon vs AV12 or AV13.

Part of the reason I asked was that in my last game a Furioso ended up in combat with my battle conclave and even though they didn't break they were tied up for the rest of the game, with me just attempting a single meltabomb attack each combat round.

I'm not really convinced an eviscerator is much use (S6 I1 attacjs compared to say krak grenades from an entire squad) in this instance. I guess I'll just have to make it my priority to shoot the dreadnoughts down and/or sacrifice a unit to take one down with meltaguns.

The only way to make BC even remotely have a chance is with a eviscerator priest and you better hope that you roll a 4++ when the dread hits you cause he is going too. On the charge you should hit with 2 or 3 shots if your lucky. You will then need to Pen, rolling 7 or more on 2d6. It is statistically possible to get 2 punches, but not a very high probability that you will. You then will need a 5 to take him out. Impossible; no, likely to happen; not really, the Law of Averages are really against you here and you should avoid this match up at all cost. You are putting the priest in there to make your DCAs more combat effective. Most of the time hoping that you never need to swing the eviscerator. I use him for multi-assaulting into a transport/ pod that I can auto hit.

As for 2 Exorcists I would take a Retributors squad to replace 1 of them you have more constant shots coming from that unit and you will find that many opponents seem to shoot at them versus the tank because of its AV 13 if your opponent has 2 two lucky lascannon shots your out all your long range shooting. Your opponent will have to pound the Ret squad into the ground if you have Kyrnov close to them to make them fearless.

Spidey......

I seem to remember you doing this in another thread; using theoryhammer to make a point that didn't exist....

One the one hand, you are correct. 2 PE's charging, or even being in combat with, a vanilla dread will win most of the time. On the other hand, an opponent with half a brain will not put themselves in that position.

Quoting statistics is fine, but you need to put them into a balanced context

I do agree with you about the BC though. Putting an eviscerator swinging preiest in there is the only way to make them even remotely effective against heavy walkers. That said, as he is an attached independant character, you do have to be careful to keep him out of punching distance or he will be gone by the time you want to use him. Frankly though I think that getting your BC tied up with a walker is just bad generalship, especially with an army that generally packs more/just-as-much melta as IG vets.

J.Black wrote:Spidey......

I seem to remember you doing this in another thread; using theoryhammer to make a point that didn't exist....

One the one hand, you are correct. 2 PE's charging, or even being in combat with, a vanilla dread will win most of the time. On the other hand, an opponent with half a brain will not put themselves in that position.

Quoting statistics is fine, but you need to put them into a balanced context

I do agree with you about the BC though. Putting an eviscerator swinging preiest in there is the only way to make them even remotely effective against heavy walkers. That said, as he is an attached independant character, you do have to be careful to keep him out of punching distance or he will be gone by the time you want to use him. Frankly though I think that getting your BC tied up with a walker is just bad generalship, especially with an army that generally packs more/just-as-much melta as IG vets.

Maybe you can clarify when you are supposed to use statistical data and when your not. All I do is apply a set of known variables and apply them to an equation that is based on a one on one combat and the law of averages. How can you say that's not proper? Your the one applying a hypothetical variable about the generalship of the opponent. My model might be slightly off because Im attempting to round off but all and all numbers are numbers.

Spidey0804 wrote:Most of the time PEs destroy Dreads on a very regular basis.

No they don't. Unless there's more than one PE, and then you have spent far more points than the opponent.

He will have 2 or 3 attacks

Assuming it's just a basic dread

lets just say 2

So you assume the minimum possible.

I run 2 PEs and they will hit the Dread on my turn needing 4s to hit. If it has a CC weapon hes Str 10 1s glance 2s pen so on the average he will hit once and punch most of the time. The PEs have 6++ and 16% of the time you are going to ignore the punch all together. On a roll of 3 he is going to wreck 1 of the squadron OK so I lost 85 pnts 40% of the time.

This part is fine.

I now get a minimum of 3 attacks, average 7, coming from 1 engine I'll hit with 3 to 4 based on the law of averages.

I don't understand where you get these numbers from. Even if the PE charges, it will only get 5-6 attacks and therefore an average 3 hits. Battle frenzy applies to unsaved wounds, not hits against vehicles.

Punching with 2 to or 3 which he has no ability to shrug off. I now have a 60% chance to make his dread ineffective in CC where the PE will finish him off in the opponents turn which is preferable. He has lost 100 plus pnt dread and I can continue on to taking out an immobilized open topped drop pod where I will auto hit and punch 80% of my attacks. A very large majority of the times the engines will pay for themselves in just 1 Rnd of CC if I can 1) disable or destroy an imminent threat to my back line scoring units 2) clear Objectives of contesting pods that I don't want to waste shooting on. 3) In a KP game I am taking 2 Kps and the opponent will have picked up none.

Whilst your maths is generally ok, the application is lacking. You skew the numbers to show the best possible result for the PE's without showing the worst case scenario. I think you'll find that assuming the PE's get the charge is just as hypothetical as the Generalship of the opponent.

J.Black wrote:
I don't understand where you get these numbers from. Even if the PE charges, it will only get 5-6 attacks and therefore an average 3 hits. Battle frenzy applies to unsaved wounds, not hits against vehicles.

A PE will have 3 to 8 attacks on the charge normally its has 1d6+1 on the charge is 1d6+2, 3 to 8 and I will say that I am high you are correct on the 5-6 still average will be 3 hits, which is still the average even in Hand to Hand without the chart.

I dont run single PEs so I take it off of what I normally run. My next question is have you every fielded them? They are a constant in many of my lists and since the new dex has come out I have run them in over 30 plus games and 3 Tournaments. Out of those experiences I have had 5 games where they weren't able to make there points back which 3 of those came against guard (I have a thing for loosing to guard LOL). I have run up to 6 of them at one time, which either beats face or doesn't kinda like Orks LOL.

Now lets list the dreads Normal AV 12 Veni AV12 Ironclad AV13, Bjiorn av13(ithink), Libby dread (which I have never seen) AV12 or 13, Death company AV 12(which are STR6 possibly STR7).

Due to points cost the normal dread is the one you will see on a regular basis if they are running an Ironclad you have to look at pnts vs pnts. Correct me if I'm wrong. How much does a Ironclad Dread cost with 2 CC weapons? or a Venerable with 2 CCw cost? Bjiorn is like 250 pnts i think and I assume the Libby dread is just as expensive also. So based off of games played, and tournament play you will have the likeliness to encounter Normal or Venerable dreads with 1 CCw or non at all.

Most of the time a Dread will only hit 50% of its CC attacks because the PE is WS 4 also. Unless you are paying the point for the upper dreads its not going to change the numbers that much.

I adjust the numbers for the charge of my engine not the charge of the opponents dread because I want them to go off on my turn not his. Even on a charge from an opposing dread you are looking at 1 more attack so it would have 3 max 4 attacks. The odds shift to the attacker which it should they got the charge off. I only need 1 of the 2 engines to survive and I can say with confidence based on the law of averages that the dread would not be on the winning side of the CC.

A drednought should always get the charge off against a PE since they can manipulate the Rage on the PE. For the sake of argument lets assume a vanilla dread w/ 1 DCCW w/ Melta and I will ignore the other weapon. All parties are undamaged on the turn of the assault.

Dread fires its melta. 2/3 hit, 11/12 Pen, 3+ wreck is 33% chance to kill with SoF in there.

Dread charges with 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 5/6 Pen, 3+ wreck is 70% chance to kill with SoF (About 12% worse if you killed the other squad member with the melta)

This completely ignores glances or the second weapon on the dread and pretty much means 1 dead PE off the bat.

The other PE swings back with 4.5 attacks,2.25 hits, 2/3 Pen, 1/3 wreck is a 50% chance to kill.

Of course these are expected values, lets look at how often the dread just rapes the PE before they swing. I will use 2 attacks this time to be conservative...

25% to hit twice, 70% Pen with both 27% One Pen, One Glance. Pen wrecks 66%, Glance 33%. Overall that is...
30%
0.25 * (0.70 * 0.66^2 + 0.3 * 0.66 * 0.33) == 36% (Edit: Derf SoF cahnce ot fail both is 70% so....) == 25%

So 25% of the time you do not even get a chance to try those nice expected value attacks you talked about (i.e. cut all your number by 25%) and this is without shooting, without the charge. Do you really want to play that lottery?

That is 170 points of PE against a ~135 point dread that could just stay at 9" range and make you chase a Rhino needing 6's to hit instead.

It is not that your math is incorrect, your assumptions just stink.
1 - The PE SHOULD NEVER get the charge - they are tactical idiots due to rage.

2 - The dread will shoot them first (usually you can throw a Lascannon or missile launcher shot in there too).

3 - You deal in expected values, when really the probability of your PE swinging is CONDITIONAL on the dread not smashing their faces. So cut your number by the appropriate conditional probability....

Also, you are completely wrong in that upgrading to Venerable status for WS5 does not completely change the numbers. For starters it drops your chance to wreck it to 1 in 9, it also now hits on a 3+ and its BS 5 shots are even more deadly as well.

I do have to agree though that throwing a DC Dread or Furioso with Blood Talons at the PE will mean the PE win. Then again, putting a dedicated anti infantry unit into a vehicle will always have this result...

1 - The PE SHOULD NEVER get the charge - they are tactical idiots due to rage.

If someone just lets their PE just run around without a support unit...Yes that could happen, but not everyone is a moron who just lets their things just run around by itself.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

1 - The PE SHOULD NEVER get the charge - they are tactical idiots due to rage.

If someone just lets their PE just run around without a support unit...Yes that could happen, but not everyone is a moron who just lets their things just run around by itself.

/like

Not everyone is an idiot who devotes a couple hundred more points to babysitting an already moderately ineffective 170 point either.

Some people even like to have control of their army and a 170 point unit that can be lead around by the nose should not dictate the movements of a significant portion of their army either. You might as well let your opponent move your army in the movement phase.

Yeah, the BA dreadnought definitly wins that engagement.


If its a regular dreadnought it will probably have a Multi-melta and Bloodfist.


Assuming there are no other variables(Just the PEs and the one dreadnought)

The Dreadnought easily gets 3 turns of shooting before CC.

3 Multi-melta shots. 2 hits on average needing 2s to glance(I'll assume none of them are in melta range), 6+ save, and needing 3s to kill. Thats one dead PE before combat.

Then, assuming the PEs get the charge, the Dread will kill 1 more before they swing.

So one surviving PE swings back. average of 4 attacks, 2 hits, .16 glances and 1 penetrating hit. 33% chance of a stunned or shaken, 16% chance of an immobilized, 16% chance of a Weapon Destroyed, and 33% chance of a wrecked/explodes.

So 1 PE has around a 50% chance of neutralizing a Furioso dreadnought(including Weapon destroyed results) and a 50% chance of only reducing it to 1 attack.

The dread is worth less points then the PEs so it actually comes out ahead.


and this is purely in a vaccum. On the table top there are way too many variables to consider, which skew it heavily in favor of the dreadnought.

calypso2ts wrote:Not everyone is an idiot who devotes a couple hundred more points to babysitting an already moderately ineffective 170 point either.

Some people even like to have control of their army and a 170 point unit that can be lead around by the nose should not dictate the movements of a significant portion of their army either. You might as well let your opponent move your army in the movement phase.

So what your saying is BT and BA and Zerkers are a complete waste of time if you even want to play 40k. This one unit can make a lot of head aches for an opponent. A lot of times people don't even know what they can do so they get ignored or they get shot at when they have cover save. When you have 3 or 4 MM Immolators 2 or 3 Dominion squads or a Retributor or Exorcist pounding the back line what would be the target Priority?

The hypothetical he was Dreads vs PEs and experience has show that a Dread that is dropped in the backfield of a Sisters army is tank hunting, trying to neutralize a Retributor squad or there to take an objective not to take out a PE. If the Dread Opts to shoot the PE squadron and does destroy it then its going to be standing in the middle of a whole bunch of melta and will probably not make it out of the next shooting phase. If this has happens at the beginning of turn 1 the dread will become the closest target to the PE so it will turn and start running at the dread. Come the top of the second turn the dread has 2 choices assault the closet unit that it can or stand there and get shot by a whole bunch of melta. If your in my deployment zone My sisters are going to be fearless so the dread getting tied up in Hand to Hand even with a squad will not break the squad. I now has to contend with the counter assault coming from the PEs, This holds true for a squad of Repentia that you keep in the backfield to combat just this attempt. Rage isn't all back especially when its kicking in Turn 1 or 2 in your deployment zone where they can reach what they were raging towards in 1 Turn.

Only DC have Rage, Rightious Zeal doesn't mandate they move the entire distance rolled, and Zerkers are usually in a vehicle of some sort.

And the Dread might be tank hunting the PEs for the reason that they can cause damage to the rest of his army. Of course he might not because his Assault Marines can rip them apart easily enough(str5 on the charge)


Too many variables. PEs arn't a good unit to take for the specific purpose of hunting dreadnoughts. Melta is what you use to kill dreadnoughts.

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, the BA dreadnought definitly wins that engagement.

If its a regular dreadnought it will probably have a Multi-melta and Bloodfist.

Assuming there are no other variables(Just the PEs and the one dreadnought)

The Dreadnought easily gets 3 turns of shooting before CC.

3 Multi-melta shots. 2 hits on average needing 2s to glance(I'll assume none of them are in melta range), 6+ save, and needing 3s to kill. Thats one dead PE before combat.

Then, assuming the PEs get the charge, the Dread will kill 1 more before they swing.

PEs loose almost always to anything AP1 that gets shot their way I have seen that happen more than once so I would dispute that in any way shape or form. What happens most of the time though is the Dead has other targets it wants to take out. That is why most of the time it doesn't get shot at. Running a PE across the table to get to a dread is just asking for it to get blow off the table. Its like running a Rhino at a Predator,(I think the Rhino would have better odds than a PE in this case) BTW I was taking this in a context of the PE and the Dread being within charge range not giving the dread time to shot 3 turns at the squad.

Also I dont think its really a valid argument in the way of take this unit and mash it against this unit, the synergy of the units in the army can make PEs work not a PE by its self. As a sisters player any shooting that I would do at the dread would look at ripping off the CC arms so that when the PEs hit the dread they have minimized threat to them.


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Grey Templar wrote:Only DC have Rage, Rightious Zeal doesn't mandate they move the entire distance rolled, and Zerkers are usually in a vehicle of some sort.

And the Dread might be tank hunting the PEs for the reason that they can cause damage to the rest of his army. Of course he might not because his Assault Marines can rip them apart easily enough(str5 on the charge)

Too many variables. PEs arn't a good unit to take for the specific purpose of hunting dreadnoughts. Melta is what you use to kill dreadnoughts.

I agree I dont take PEs to hunt dreads, They are a tool that comes into play when an opponent has 1) over looked them or 2) has made a tactical error that allows the to get to close. 3) The models are super cool and intimidating looking and people like to shoot at them. That means they aren't shooting something else.

Spidey0804 wrote:
The hypothetical he was Dreads vs PEs and experience has show that a Dread that is dropped in the backfield of a Sisters army is tank hunting, trying to neutralize a Retributor squad or there to take an objective not to take out a PE. If the Dread Opts to shoot the PE squadron and does destroy it then its going to be standing in the middle of a whole bunch of melta and will probably not make it out of the next shooting phase. If this has happens at the beginning of turn 1 the dread will become the closest target to the PE so it will turn and start running at the dread. Come the top of the second turn the dread has 2 choices assault the closet unit that it can or stand there and get shot by a whole bunch of melta. If your in my deployment zone My sisters are going to be fearless so the dread getting tied up in Hand to Hand even with a squad will not break the squad. I now has to contend with the counter assault coming from the PEs, This holds true for a squad of Repentia that you keep in the backfield to combat just this attempt. Rage isn't all back especially when its kicking in Turn 1 or 2 in your deployment zone where they can reach what they were raging towards in 1 Turn.

Yeah this is entirely different than using a PE to hunt down dreads. What this is, is an opponent spoon feeding you part of his army. Also, the appropriate way to kill the dread is, as you mentioned, with Meltas.

Now back to the other examples. Berserkers do not have rage as far as I know, neither do non Death Company BA (and DC are severely handicapped by Rage) while Black Templar do suffer from Righous Zeal, they can be protected by being in a transport and you actually get to move them however you want the rest of the time. Not to mention they can potentially make CC in an opponents turn which rocks.

Rightious Zeal doesn't require you to move the full distance either. You could just move .0001" towards your opponent. Its basically an optional free move.

calypso2ts wrote:
Yeah this is entirely different than using a PE to hunt down dreads. What this is, is an opponent spoon feeding you part of his army. Also, the appropriate way to kill the dread is, as you mentioned, with Meltas.

LOL Ok hows this for anyone that wants to spoon feed me a drop pod dread ill eat it. Either way, shoot it with melta. Let it charge you. Hit it with a PE or Repentia Squad. Can we do it ? Yes if you have the right tools around. Either way the thread was SOB vs Walkers. A tool is a tool whether you have the tool in your list, well that depends on the person running it. I always have 2 if not more so its a tool I can use. If you dont put them in there or something to help you in the backfield to protect against this then your going to be in trouble. Hope you brought MMs to cover your backfield cause that's the only chance your going to have.