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Spidey0804 wrote: They are a tool that comes into play when an opponent has 1) over looked them or 2) has made a tactical error that allows the to get to close. 3) The models are super cool and intimidating looking and people like to shoot at them. That means they aren't shooting something else.

See... this is my problem with PE's... You are, in my experience with them too, relying on your opponent to mess up for them to even start earning their points back They do look all kinds of awesome, but it's hard enough to be competitive with SoB without handicapping myself by taking a unit that relys sooo much on luck. Great for friendly games: PE horde Vs. Kan wall is hella fun

J.Black wrote:
See... this is my problem with PE's... You are, in my experience with them too, relying on your opponent to mess up for them to even start earning their points back They do look all kinds of awesome, but it's hard enough to be competitive with SoB without handicapping myself by taking a unit that relys sooo much on luck. Great for friendly games: PE horde Vs. Kan wall is hella fun

LOL its a dice game damn right I'm hoping for some luck. Yesterday I played against DE and for the first time I didn't take them and went with a second Retributor squad. I ended up winning but I really missed them on the table.

9 Penitent Engines does sound tempting..

Shandara wrote:9 Penitent Engines does sound tempting..

LOL yeah throw in 30 Repentia and CHARGE lol.

That gives a whole new meaning to the phrase 'I lost that one in deployment...'

Ok, a couple of points here...

First, rage causes trouble for Penitent Engines maybe 1 out of every 6 games. Assault units generally move 6" towards the enemy every round. This is nothing surprising or rare or exclusive to rage units. Since rage does not dictate movement in the assault phase, any minor corrections or distractions that need ignoring can be fixed then.

Second, PE are not a unit you purchase to counter problems. They don't do that. They make problems for an opponent, they distract, they control enemy movement (just as or more reliably than the enemy can control theirs - each PE is basically a 12" bubble nobody get's near). But they do not surgically remove threats. Not how they work.

Third, if you see a dread, hit it with repentia. Repentia will kill a dread faster than you can say boo, and in a transport they ARE a surgeons knife. Park it where you want, and have a horde of madwomen come spilling out and counter-charge a dread giving you trouble. Or a tank, or troop units, or an MC, or anything else really. After that they do the same thing PE do, except with fleet. They are far more reliable than an exorcist for taking out big, unpleasant things.

They do need that transport from somewhere, though.

Hollowman wrote: Ok, a couple of points here...

First, rage causes trouble for Penitent Engines maybe 1 out of every 6 games. Assault units generally move 6" towards the enemy every round. This is nothing surprising or rare or exclusive to rage units. Since rage does not dictate movement in the assault phase, any minor corrections or distractions that need ignoring can be fixed then.

Second, PE are not a unit you purchase to counter problems. They don't do that. They make problems for an opponent, they distract, they control enemy movement (just as or more reliably than the enemy can control theirs - each PE is basically a 12" bubble nobody get's near). But they do not surgically remove threats. Not how they work.

Third, if you see a dread, hit it with repentia. Repentia will kill a dread faster than you can say boo, and in a transport they ARE a surgeons knife. Park it where you want, and have a horde of madwomen come spilling out and counter-charge a dread giving you trouble. Or a tank, or troop units, or an MC, or anything else really. After that they do the same thing PE do, except with fleet. They are far more reliable than an exorcist for taking out big, unpleasant things.

They do need that transport from somewhere, though.

I just played a game this weekend with a 10man squad of them. I had a blast running just letting them run around to catch stuff most of the time they are all dead by the end of the game but they have made back their points so I really dont care what they do. If they get into something great if they dont well still look really cool. Im a sucker for cool looking models just being fielded. Most of the time that's why I build the list I do.

Hollowman wrote: Ok, a couple of points here...

First, rage causes trouble for Penitent Engines maybe 1 out of every 6 games. Assault units generally move 6" towards the enemy every round. This is nothing surprising or rare or exclusive to rage units. Since rage does not dictate movement in the assault phase, any minor corrections or distractions that need ignoring can be fixed then.

Ummm. my assault units do not just charge towards the enemy regardless of the situatuion. they are (especially with SoB) reserved or counter-assault roles. Forcing them to move at any time really messes with my plans.

Second, PE are not a unit you purchase to counter problems. They don't do that. They make problems for an opponent, they distract, they control enemy movement (just as or more reliably than the enemy can control theirs - each PE is basically a 12" bubble nobody get's near). But they do not surgically remove threats. Not how they work.

I agree. But they don't really do anything that the rest of the army can't do cheaper/more efficiently. For the same points as one PE I can have a ret squad with 4 HB plugging away every round. Much more damage output. PE's are a threat that an opponent deals with when they want to... hell, it only takes a couple of S8 shots to get rid of them statiscally; why would the average general even bother thinking about them?

Third, if you see a dread, hit it with repentia. Repentia will kill a dread faster than you can say boo, and in a transport they ARE a surgeons knife. Park it where you want, and have a horde of madwomen come spilling out and counter-charge a dread giving you trouble. Or a tank, or troop units, or an MC, or anything else really. After that they do the same thing PE do, except with fleet. They are far more reliable than an exorcist for taking out big, unpleasant things.

But you have to wait an entire turn to get them in CC. There are no 'assault' vehicles in the SoB codex..... Props to you if you play people who are happy to let their units stand around while you set up a Repentia charge, but back in the real world this just doesn't happen :( I'm sure the Theoryhammer is great if you get to charge a dread with repentia.... but that's all it is.... Theory. If you play someone who lets you do that sort of thing, just put it down as a cheap win. That's all it is. Any player with a bit of nous will never put high value units within range of such an obvious counter

They do need that transport from somewhere, though.

J.Black wrote: Ummm. my assault units do not just charge towards the enemy regardless of the situatuion. they are (especially with SoB) reserved or counter-assault roles. Forcing them to move at any time really messes with my plans.

That's certainly a good strategy, but I'm talking about assault rather than counter assault - assault units are great for counter-assaulting, but that's not what I use PE for. I use them to contest the middle, screen enemy assault units and push into the enemies backfield, and for that role rage is of no serious consequence.

I agree. But they don't really do anything that the rest of the army can't do cheaper/more efficiently. For the same points as one PE I can have a ret squad with 4 HB plugging away every round. Much more damage output. PE's are a threat that an opponent deals with when they want to... hell, it only takes a couple of S8 shots to get rid of them statiscally; why would the average general even bother thinking about them?

Ret squads are great, but don't do anything a PE does. They don't take AT fire off my transports, they don't dominate the middle, they don't push into the rear if ignored, and they don't scare anyone into keeping away from my objective guarding troops. The only thing they have in common is scaring midfield transports into taking the long way around.

But you have to wait an entire turn to get them in CC. There are no 'assault' vehicles in the SoB codex..... Props to you if you play people who are happy to let their units stand around while you set up a Repentia charge, but back in the real world this just doesn't happen :( I'm sure the Theoryhammer is great if you get to charge a dread with repentia.... but that's all it is.... Theory. If you play someone who lets you do that sort of thing, just put it down as a cheap win. That's all it is. Any player with a bit of nous will never put high value units within range of such an obvious counter

There's no theoryhammer here - I've been playing Repentia for fun since before they could take transports. Now they are far better, and I've used them routinely since the new codex dropped, against quality players. I have never had any trouble getting multiple charges off with Repentia, apart from first round transport pops, which are tough for them to deal with. I've charged a good half dozen walkers with repentia, and a lot more tanks than that.

Generally I park midfield, pop smoke and the next round I get out and charge. With fleet they have plenty of range, and if someone blows up their ride I don't even have to bother unloading, I just charge next turn. But with 2-3 immolators with dominions and 6 PE, my list has no lack of other things that need to be shot at midfield. In a less focused list people will pay more attention to them, but with a 13" minimum charge range you should manage it more often than not.

There are no 'assault' vehicles in the SoB codex.....

Just need to pray that the Repentor variant of SoB mentioned in the WD dex gets into the actual codex (ten firing ports, assault ramp!) Because that is NOT the one thats in the current Forgeworld stuff.

Hollowman wrote:
Ret squads are great, but don't do anything a PE does. They don't take AT fire off my transports, they don't dominate the middle, they don't push into the rear if ignored, and they don't scare anyone into keeping away from my objective guarding troops. The only thing they have in common is scaring midfield transports into taking the long way around.

I definitely agree with this - I've started running a squad of 3 PEs and keeping them behind an advancing rhino for cover. Combined with 2 scouting MM-immolator dominion squads they do an amazing job of keeping AT fire off the rest of my army while it sets up and finishes the hammer blow. Since I started using them the survivability of my exorcists and rhinos has noticeably increased -- that is very different than what Rets accomplish in a list. I've seen all this talk of a unit "getting its points back", but how do you model the extra points a unit allows other units to kill off?

To get back on topic... PEs are definitely more of a deterrent in the backfield, especially against drop-dreds, than most other things in the sister's list.

Here's a conundrum I've experienced recently though -> St. Celestine vs a Walker, especially one without CCWs letting her rock the 2+ save. Do you just write her off as a lost cause at that point, or try to send a rescue squad of some sort? Example: She kills a purifier squad camping an objective, but while doing so a nearby rifleman dread wanders over and joins the combat. Sure... she did her job of taking out the troop and/or contesting the objective... but if that damn dread didn't lock her up she could move on to another. Is killing the squad and tying up the dread for the rest of the game "enough" to count as a good day for our Living Saint?

Got to agree with you on this one quiestdeus.

I've never understood the need to take a model on the basis of "is it going to make it's points back?"

Some models are likely not going to make their points back. The PEs are a good example of this. If they hit combat, chances are they definitely will make their points back, but their main asset is how they play with your opponent's head and allow some other units to make more points than they normally might.

As for the argument that a good player will never let you setup a charge with said unit if they know what they're doing. That's making two big assumption. 1. That he is never prone to making mistakes and 2. that the person playing him is not as good.

While someone will definitely not play to set himself up for a charge from repentias or a penitent engine I will be playing him to force him into a position where he will either take a charge or will have to make some other hard decisions.

Voldrak wrote:While someone will definitely not play to set himself up for a charge from repentias or a penitent engine I will be playing him to force him into a position where he will either take a charge or will have to make some other hard decisions.

While not speaking directly to the usefulness of Repentia (I've never actually fielded them), I will say that if you can get them a ride they'll have a minimum 16" charge range from that vehicle. So if you're making a 16" radius bubble on the table that your opponent is "too smart to walk into" it sounds like Repentia are doing a pretty good job.

Amerikon wrote:While not speaking directly to the usefulness of Repentia (I've never actually fielded them), I will say that if you can get them a ride they'll have a minimum 16" charge range from that vehicle. So if you're making a 16" radius bubble on the table that your opponent is "too smart to walk into" it sounds like Repentia are doing a pretty good job.

Exactly. People always tell me the same thing with conclaves... 'Too short range' 'No assault vehicle'

Okay, so I'm in the middle of the board and can assault 16" from there... Did you cede me the middle?

Do you guys typically run a single 10 girl squad of Repentia, getting their rhino from Retributors? When you run more than 1 squad where do you get the other rhino(s)?

I don't know about anyone else, but I steal my Repentia transport from basic SoB squads. I leave the squads without wheels guarding objectives near cover, preferably where they can give each other fire support. Basic sisters in rhino's are pretty underwhelming, so having two camping on objectives without a ride has never really made me wince.

I run squads of 9 Repentia - just because that's how the points worked out, really.

Your plethera of melta weapons as well as ap1 exorcists.

If your getting into close combat thats not good, avoid that and shoot alot.

Hollowman wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but I steal my Repentia transport from basic SoB squads. I leave the squads without wheels guarding objectives near cover, preferably where they can give each other fire support. Basic sisters in rhino's are pretty underwhelming, so having two camping on objectives without a ride has never really made me wince.

I run squads of 9 Repentia - just because that's how the points worked out, really.

Interesting - do you kit the guard-girls with MM then? I've been running a lot of heavy flamer-flamer SoB squads lately and liking it, but I keep meaning to try some objective-camping MM's.

I'll have to post my most recent list and shift this sort of discussion there and let this thread get back on topic

Smitty0305 wrote:Your plethera of melta weapons as well as ap1 exorcists.

If your getting into close combat thats not good, avoid that and shoot alot.

The Exorcists can be fickle to say the least. Anyone who runs them on a regular basis will attest to this. 1 shot can make it all but useless ripping its weapon off. I have run lists with 1, 2 and 3 of them but I just haven't had much luck with them on the Tourny circuit just because of the shear amount of tank busting out there. The PEs and Repentia gives you another layer of walker defense in CC that we dont have on a normal basis.

quiestdeus wrote:Interesting - do you kit the guard-girls with MM then? I've been running a lot of heavy flamer-flamer SoB squads lately and liking it, but I keep meaning to try some objective-camping MM's.

I run 1-2 Melta/MM, 1-2 Melta/Melta and 0-1 HF/Melta in my lists (depending on points).

Spidey0804 wrote:The Exorcists can be fickle to say the least. Anyone who runs them on a regular basis will attest to this. 1 shot can make it all but useless ripping its weapon off. I have run lists with 1, 2 and 3 of them but I just haven't had much luck with them on the Tourny circuit just because of the shear amount of tank busting out there. The PEs and Repentia gives you another layer of walker defense in CC that we dont have on a normal basis.

Exorcists are great. Most opponents either over or underestimate them. You place them in cover turn 1 and either your opponent ignores them and suffers for it or pours fire into them and the rest of your army gets way too close. AV13 + cover (or complete obscurement since they are shoot and scoot) is a great defense.

I like Repentia, but just can't squeeze them in outside of 2k+. PE's I don't have and wouldn't fit in if I had to give up my only LR AT.

I played against a BA guy recently at a tournament with a SR loaded with Meph and a Furioso. Did they eat some squads? Yep. Did they then end up on the wrong side of a melta? Yep. Our defense against Dreads is being meched up and not sweating the loss of one or two squads.
'Go ahead; kill my sisters... You will pay in blood for your sin.'

pretre wrote:
'Go ahead; kill my sisters... You will pay in blood for your sin.'

You come from the Old Dex Mentality


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After playing them for so long I'm used to losing models and squads too, or sacrificing them. Its taken me some time to get used to not having to do that anymore. LOL

Spidey0804 wrote:

pretre wrote:
'Go ahead; kill my sisters... You will pay in blood for your sin.'

You come from the Old Dex Mentality

Not sure what you mean here. Sisters used to be much less disposable than they are now. I had to change my mentality with the WD dex a lot.

Codex Chapter Approved: Redemptionists are the expendable ones; Sisters are resilient and nigh-unbreakable.
Codex Witch Hunters: Guard are the expendable ones; Sisters are resilient and nigh-unbreakable.
Codex White Dwarf: Sisters are the expendable ones; Don't sweat it if you lose a couple to get done what you need done.

Agreeing with Pretre here: I really don't worry about losing a squad or 2 of Sisters.... as long as they get to have their turn of shooting first ofc.

That said, their ability to auto rally with the faith system makes them extremely tenacious objective holders.

Having played a game against SW today, I found that my dominions are totally expendable. The damage they cause in their shooting phase more than makes up for this though as they can blow up tanks/burn infantry and give your opponent something they have to deal with immediately whilst the rest of your army goes unscathed.

J.Black wrote:Having played a game against SW today, I found that my dominions are totally expendable. The damage they cause in their shooting phase more than makes up for this though as they can blow up tanks/burn infantry and give your opponent something they have to deal with immediately whilst the rest of your army goes unscathed.

Totally agree. This is a great part of Dominions. Anytime my Doms get slaughtered after getting a couple shots off, is generally a good day for me. Mostly because that's their job, to go big or go home and to die instead of the scoring stuff.

As an aside, Dominions look identical to sisters on the table, once demeched, and this will often confuse opponents as to what units are scoring or important. I would never not tell them, but sometimes folks make snap judgements without asking, tear through a dominion squad and then say 'Wait, that one wasn't scoring?'

pretre wrote:
As an aside, Dominions look identical to sisters on the table, once demeched, and this will often confuse opponents as to what units are scoring or important. I would never not tell them, but sometimes folks make snap judgements without asking, tear through a dominion squad and then say 'Wait, that one wasn't scoring?'

Heh... I was hoping for the same thing sadly we were playing KP's..... He had 6 to my 13 :/

J.Black wrote:Heh... I was hoping for the same thing sadly we were playing KP's..... He had 6 to my 13 :/

Yeah, my army has WAAAY too many KP. Mech everything does that, I suppose.

quiestdeus wrote:Interesting - do you kit the guard-girls with MM then? I've been running a lot of heavy flamer-flamer SoB squads lately and liking it, but I keep meaning to try some objective-camping MM's.

I do indeed - they are good for reaching out at oncoming vehicles. Plus, a couple multimelta can be a persuasive argument against dropping dreads in your backfield, to get back to the original post. I've been giving them flamers too as an infantry deterrent, but they rarely come into play.

Hollowman wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:Interesting - do you kit the guard-girls with MM then? I've been running a lot of heavy flamer-flamer SoB squads lately and liking it, but I keep meaning to try some objective-camping MM's.

I do indeed - they are good for reaching out at oncoming vehicles. Plus, a couple multimelta can be a persuasive argument against dropping dreads in your backfield, to get back to the original post. I've been giving them flamers too as an infantry deterrent, but they rarely come into play.

Same here.