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As a fair few models have bayonets I thought there could be a special assault rule, that means you can have 1 attack for each model that has a bayonet. It would happen only if you assaulted, and it would happen before any other attacks, no matter what the initiative of the enemy is. Also if the enemy initiative was higher then after the bayonet charge the enemy would attack normally and then your models afterwards. If you have the higher initiative then you would keep attacking.

Cool, and since we're moving out of the abstract, none of the attacks made with a bayonet can damage models wearing decent armour.

Good idea! Armour rating of 3 and below? What if it has high weapons skill? It could bayonet a break in the armour.

It's hard to balance it in game terms since the army that first comes to mind are the guard.

For guard 1 point each
SOB 1 point each
SM/CSM 2 points each

Bayonet Charge:
A model may be given a bayonet if armed with a lasgun, shotgun, or bolter for 1 point. On the turn a model launching an assault armed with a bayonet makes it in base to base combat he may take a single attack at Initiative 10 in place of his normal attacks for that turn with armor saves allowed. A model launching a counter-attack may also use their bayonet utilizing the above conditions.


So no charging bonus, they have to get into B2B, it's always a single attack regardless of base attacks and other weapons, and it is only on the turn they launch and assault(or counter).

That sounds terrible. Perhaps it should be more like +2 attacks on the charge for all models and that is it. Initiative 10 doesn't really make sense because lots of models have blades on long sticks, but don't get I 10 on the charge. It would give the Guard a good boost, but wouldn't give them the chance to potentially slay high I models before they can hit back.

I'd say keep it simple, make it an upgrade to the unit, but give it furious charge.

I like just an extra attack on the charge, +1 A on the charge for models with bayonets unless charging through cover.

That's a god +2pnts a bayonet that people may or not take. Doesn't give a huge advantage and is mostly a play style thing, most likely to help Guard Infantry try and fight orks, as long as they get the charge, in CC. Which they probably still won't do.

I like that all models in the unit must take the upgrade, but I'd say it should be codex specific. Not a USR. (Weapon Type Special Rule.) Some armies really don't need and shouldn't have CC boosts more than they have already. (SM) Guard basic infantry wouldn't mind some boosts. But everyone just runs meq anyways with the poor guys. Waste of a varied codex if you ask me.

I pretty much agree with Runna in every aspect. Just 2 ppm, every model in the squad must take it, just +2 attacks on the charge. Would help with making a CQB guard, which while it is very noncompetitive is quite fun.Could allow for some pretty sweet combos like Straken + Combined Squad w/ Bayonets = up to 150 strength 4 I 4 attacks on the charge.

Personally I always considered having bayonets add either +1 Initiative or +1 Strength on the charge (or have it cost a little more and just make it Furious Charge already). I don't think a bayonet should give an extra attack - bayonets are a very one-chance weapon. You either connect with that first lunge, or you are left pretty much vulnerable to any counter-blows.

Righto.

The Bayonet is a 2-Handed Close Combat Weapon that can only be wielded in Close Combat if the Model has a Non-Pistol Ranged Weapon. On the Charge, If the wielder is in Base Contact with an enemy model, it gains an additional attack (in addition to the attack from Charging). This attack is made at +1 Initiative and Strength, but always only hits on a roll of 4+ (unless it would be worse). If this attack misses, the remainder of the wielding model's attacks this turn are made at Initiative 1.

The Bayonet is a full-squad upgrade for units with Bolt variants, Las variants, Shoota variants, Shuriken variants, and Splinter variants. To determine points cost, total the squad's Weapons Skill, Strength, and Initiative, and divide that number by 20 (rounding up).

That really sounds OP, furious charge and +2 attacks on the charge? Also, the way to calculate the cost is too complicated and unbalance (honestly, guard get them for five points, and marines get them for one more?). Just have it be +2 attacks and set a price depending on the army, perhaps 2 ppm for guard, 4ppm for marines etc.

You haven't run any maths on it, have you?

No?

I thought not.

So, say we're going with the 50-man blob against MEQ, using an absolutely 100% ideal situation.

20 Points, we get on the charge (assuming, magically, that everyone in base actually gets their charge attack)

Since we have 16 Marines for roughly equivalent cost, we'll say that somehow 20 guard get their bayonet attacks.

So you've paid 20 points for: 10 Attacks, 5 Wounds, and 1.6r unsaved wounds. At the same time, the Marines (who have CCW and Bolt Pistol because their current loadout is stupid) get 34 attacks back (assuming 2 sergeants), 21 of them hit, 14 of them wound, and 9 saves are failed.

The rest of the (magically in-range to attack) guardsmen then deal a combined total of 5 unsaved wounds. Guard fail by ~3 and fallback most of the time, being whiped.

You have paid 20 points for 1.6r unsaved wounds; buying 4 flamers while being within charge range for your magical charge would've given you at least 2 wounds. So, you be the judge on what it's worth.

I just don't think marines should have the upgrade, balanced or not for them, they don't need it to make their infantry matter and Guard could benefit from some infantry buffs that are CC without being OP.
I'm not saying SM couldn't get balanced cost and use out of bayonets, I'd just rather they didn't have it, and think Guard would benefit more from it.

Ok, how about this:

Fix Bayonets! is a new order that can be issued by any IG command squad to any Infantry Squad, Veteran Squad, or Conscripts unit at the start of the Guard player's shooting phase. The unit receiving the order can do nothing else this shooting phase, but is at +1 Strength and Initiative until the start of the Guard player's next turn.

I don't even think this requires a points increase, as it's not a very big buff, and it's very situational. It only applies to one Guard squad at a time, has a decent chance of failing like any other order, and gives up shooting any assault weapons you might have in favor of a slight buff in hand to hand. It's set up to allow the squad to receive a charge as well, but unless your weapons options really suck (like a Conscript unit, for instance), you're probably better off shooting whoever's about to charge you instead.

Wow great response! I was thinking codex specific. Marines don't generally have bayonets, but 'crons do don't they? (obviously IG have them). Fix bayonets order is a great idea. Maybe a 1 ppm increase? The average guardsman does need a slight improvement and that is generally why I thought it up.

Desert_thunder_heart wrote:Wow great response! I was thinking codex specific. Marines don't generally have bayonets, but 'crons do don't they? (obviously IG have them). Fix bayonets order is a great idea. Maybe a 1 ppm increase? The average guardsman does need a slight improvement and that is generally why I thought it up.

Hell, give them to every non-melee race. Tau (or at least Kroot and Gue'Vesa), IG, Necrons, I think that is it. They are the ones that are probably more likely to use them, bayonets for marines would probably be a downgrade over their armoured fists, Orks have choppas, Tyranids have claws and teeth, and Chaos daemons are living weapons.

Kroot have their fighting blades already, but Gue'vesa probably would like 'em for the times when the Marines come for payback.

Jefffar wrote:Kroot have their fighting blades already, but Gue'vesa probably would like 'em for the times when the Marines come for payback.

Don't play Tau, do fighting blades have special rules of some kind?

Buttons wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Kroot have their fighting blades already, but Gue'vesa probably would like 'em for the times when the Marines come for payback.

Don't play Tau, do fighting blades have special rules of some kind?

Yep, they allow the Kroot Rifle to count as 2x Close Combat Weapons.

But they are used in a different fashion than a bayonet. Kroot fighting blades come into play like the funky curved Klingon sword from Star Trek. Bayonets are more about charging/counter charging so I see Furious Charge and/or Counter Attack being better representations of the bayonet.

Can you get Gue'vesa models? What is their average weapon? Is it a las*fail*gun?

Desert_thunder_heart wrote:Can you get Gue'vesa models? What is their average weapon? Is it a las*fail*gun?

You have to convert them, and IIRC they use lasguns and can have a few (1-3 I really don't know) guys upgraded to pulse rifles or carbines. Not sure if they can use markerlights or not. Sound really useless on the tabletop tbh.

Reading through the history and deployment of bayonettes, it seems like it's a samurai sword, that is something that's glorified far in advance of what it actually is - a rather poor melee weapon whose only advantage is that it allows the soldier to more effectively use the rifle as a weapon and not be obstructed by it.

In it's essence, a sword would be a much better close combat weapon due to it's purpose-made grip and both pick and axe would be better for damaging armoured opponents.
I do note that bayonettes typically were rather easy to deflect.

All in all, in a system where the physically superior Eldar have the same statline as a human and where an exploding fragmentation grenade has the same damaging effect as a punch, well... it doesn't leave much for the bayonette.

@Mahtamori; the intent of my first post in this thread was to point out the ridiculousness of the idea. But people still came, and it grew, so I threw out something almost useless for a decent points cost. The problem with a game like 40K is that "things that look or seem cool" are usually better than "Things that would actually work, regardless of cool-factor."

I like how people think guard suck at h2h. They dont need any upgrades since they're already better then marines at it, if you combine squads with a commissar. The bayonet was an amazing weapon innovation back when it came out, for it allowed the arquebus to engage pikemen. But now it has no purpose in a modern battlefield.

Uh.. what? Combined Squads with Furious Charge and 5 commies still doesn't make up its points against many things... grots and firewarriors, basic marines...

Yes, because this is a game of points, where everything has to make up its points and not fill a role in the army,

Uh...y...yes? Guard don't need any sort of melee to win. It's inefficient compared to their other options. The entire role of every model in your army is "to bring you closer to winning," and melta vets do that better than blobs in a larger number of scenarios (see: single dreadnought ruins your day). So, yeah, if they can't at minimum make up their points, then swapping them out for something that CAN make up its points increases the efficiency of your army, and fills its role better than the blob.

Actually a single dred is only going to kill at most 3 guardsmen an assault phase, which is 6 per turn, and gives me at least 3 turns to ignore him since he isnt killing my tanks. Good job blob. The more i play the more i realize that meltavets are not the greatest thing ever, since everyone knows how to counter them, yet they seem to have trouble countering footguard, ohs nos your 25pt model killed a 5pt guardsman with your melta gun.

So you use melta vets to screen your tanks? Or to hold your oblective? Because I'm pretty sure a 20-40 man blob is more effective at both. And blobs win hands down in kill points.

I'll trade you 180 points for 115 all day and we'll see where we get.

Sure but your 115 wont be taking out my 150+ tanks. Which are the real killers of the IG. Your approaching it from a vacuum. I'm approaching it from game play experience. Sure 1v1 a dred will out point a 20 man blob. However your not factoring in that i get a chance to vaporize you with my meltas in the blob. Ive been running blobs for a while and have only been locked in combat with a dred twice, BOTH Times i charged it, since i failed to destroy it, and needed to stop it from killing my tanks.

Plus they annoy people who list tailor, "Oh you play IG, let me just add a gak load of meltas." Comes to table, "Hey where are all your tanks?" So in essence they lose points paying for meltas they will never be in range to take out av 14.