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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I like how people think guard suck at h2h. They dont need any upgrades since they're already better then marines at it, if you combine squads with a commissar. The bayonet was an amazing weapon innovation back when it came out, for it allowed the arquebus to engage pikemen. But now it has no purpose in a modern battlefield.

Yes it does, it allows soldiers to engage in melee combat and extend their reach over a simple knife as well as not needing to lower their primary weapon to draw a knife or sword. IIRC the Brits had a couple of successful bayonet charges in Afghanistan, and even disregarding organized bayonet charges, if an enemy is right in your face it is generally a safe bet to simply stab him with a bayonet, even if you open fire half a second later.

For every instance of 115 vs 180 that comes up, I can add a chunk of HS to my list. If you'd ran a vets in a vendetta for 240, you spend 60 points extra but don't have to worry about 2, 3, maybe even 4 Dreadnaughts. You also don't have to worry about other hordes for the most part, or anything that can't hit your rear armour at S6 or less. You get 24" capture/deny swoops, some of the most efficient ranged firepower in the game, and the ability to deepstrike some melta vets in. It's a more efficient use of points that works better in a wider range of situations, which is why people use it instead of infantry blobs.

Yes, it's because Vendettas are hyperefficient on their points. Yes, it's because Melta Vets are awesome. Yes, if you brought infantry blobs up to this level of greatness, people would take them. No, we can't do this with bayonets. But it's a start, even though it's a silly start that doesn't make much sense.

Edit in regard to Buttons: If your enemy is a giant fungus, a wave of scything bugs, hyper-agile elfs in space, or a superhuman demigod in magi-plate hyper armour, your argument begins to look more and more invalid. Knives and blades would already not work well against most of these things - CC is very abstract in 40K. Introducing 'things that make sense' into a situation where they don't make sense even in the sense of things that don't make sense, doesn't make sense.

They do look cool on models, and though there was a good disscusion on how Guard can be good in combat I was not convinced and wouldn't mind the given idea that a bayonet charge was a new order that could be handed out. However, I don't think they would increase the strength. Which is where I feel a little hypocritical because having handled a bayonet and being a fight choreographer, I slightly touch on the real fact that a bayonet in modern day more or less gives you an extra attack before you have to draw out your close combat weapon, if you can skillfully slash it letting go via strap and draw your CC weapon like a martial arts master, than, yea, otherwise, no, it's not even a better idea to use it in a charge unless trying to stick people behind cover or through windows or doors or sandbags etc. and that it does have use in war for quick stabbing without having to sheeth your gun may be something you can use in the sense. So reality based, no +1 anything. Honestly, still, who cares, it's a game, it's the future, The steel of the blade is so brimingly sharp or maybe the bayonet tip is poisoned or enrgized, I don't know, a lucky hit is a lucky hit anyways. How do a horde of orks chargin a land raider honestly not just tip the damn thing over or wreck its wheels?
Obviously, I am not posting rules on reality, no, I am posting rules on models and something that would make taking Guardsmen more intersting for the mass amount of people that currently don't field them in response to the original poster, and I like the idea of bayonets charge being an order.

However, perhaps all it can really do is allow a unit charging in to cover to make one attack at normal intiative instead of normal attacks at Intiative One.

Or Ready Bayonets: Each model with a Bayonet being charged may make one attack against the initiative of one model in base to base contact with it before other attacks are rolled.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, but I'm tired of editing it and this Chinese internet bar has no good Microsoft Word.

Also, I really like this sentence as posted by chrisrawr:

Introducing 'things that make sense' into a situation where they don't make sense even in the sense of things that don't make sense, doesn't make sense.

And wanted to repost it.

So all in all, as long as it's balanced pointwise, I'm happy with whatever it does.

Runna wrote:Or Ready Bayonets: Each model with a Bayonet being charged may make one attack against the initiative of one model in base to base contact with it before other attacks are rolled.

Perfect!

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Desert_thunder_heart wrote:

Runna wrote:Or Ready Bayonets: Each model with a Bayonet being charged may make one attack against the initiative of one model in base to base contact with it before other attacks are rolled.

Perfect!

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

That works for me, a simple order, not OP, doesn't increase the points cost.

Buttons wrote:

Desert_thunder_heart wrote:

Runna wrote:Or Ready Bayonets: Each model with a Bayonet being charged may make one attack against the initiative of one model in base to base contact with it before other attacks are rolled.

Perfect!

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

That works for me, a simple order, not OP, doesn't increase the points cost.

Am I missing something, or is this actually confusingly worded? What does it mean, make one attack against an enemy in base to base contact before any other attacks are rolled, i.e. at Initiative 10?

It has been stated by soldiers who have used bayonets that they are much worse in combat that using a normal knife.

The gun is clumsy and easily avoided. Due to the soldier holding the gun and his only real means of fighting in close combat is on the end of it he is very vunerable. He can easily be outmanuvered at close range, he can't duck or dodge properly and has no means to attack once an enemy is close. An enemy once beside him or simply close enough to be past the point of the bayonet can easily finish him off.

The primary purpose it serves is a morale boost for soldiers if they fear being charged and attacked at close range. It means they feel they have a defence if an enemy makes it past their bullets. Real fighting and killing needs to usually be done with a knife or trench fighting weapon, kills with a bayonet only work because of luck, not skill.

Rules for it would apply to units being charged. Making them stubborn in a turn they are assaulted but also putting them at one less WS and initiative due to the clumsyness and ineffectiveness of the bayonet. Also all models must use their bayonet to gain this rule and not use other close combat weapons or power weapons, powerfists, agonisers etc. I requires both hands to use and allows one strike that is hard to aim so extra attacks for it would make no sense.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Desert_thunder_heart wrote:

Runna wrote:Or Ready Bayonets: Each model with a Bayonet being charged may make one attack against the initiative of one model in base to base contact with it before other attacks are rolled.

Perfect!

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

That works for me, a simple order, not OP, doesn't increase the points cost.

Am I missing something, or is this actually confusingly worded? What does it mean, make one attack against an enemy in base to base contact before any other attacks are rolled, i.e. at Initiative 10?

Well, it does go first, but in that sense the Initiative of the model you're attacking is their WeaponSkill. (There are other things like this.) So, WS 3 versus so and so Initiative, to represent that it is in fact just a lucky stick with a long point on it before the fight begins. (Pretty much the guard are holding the bayonets out ready for the charge and this is to see if the charges get hit by the blade on their way to the guard. Like pikemen to horses, but not as good as Pikes.)

Charging orks I imagine would be easy to stab with the thing, because they would be massing around but Howling Banshees and the like not so much. as they would be more likely to dodge this thing.

Maybe make it St 2 to represent the weakness of it and thus the order is in fact, as useful as a bayonet in real life, luck and luck alone make it matter.

Also this means that high initiative models aren't really hindered by the effects, making Guard more useful against pretty much ork type hordes and the like, but not your futuristic martial arts masters. At St 2 WS 3, it becomes two 5+ you would require to hurt most of the Eldar/DE etc. with said skill, thus it's not OP, and only by the whims of luck and luck alone could it be effective. As everyone complains about bad luck already, no new complaints come to the field with said rule.

I guess, of course, because others are happy with the rule, I feel good. I don't know, I try hard not to word things to confusiongly, and I think I'm getting better at it. If you read my first posts on the forums, you would have thought I was on acid, sadly I'm not, I just get a bit, carried away with the keyboard and lack a filter. I'm getting better.

I like it when rules come up based on discussion too, I think it allows the rule to filter through the many different mind sets and playstyles of different players, and I feel that the rule I wrote really came from reading and taking in the feedback of everyone on this particular post. So, an invitation to anyone to give me similar feedback on my own codex is open. no, I did not just post that here, you saw nothing, I am completly devoting my attention to the bayonet question...

Because the rule is not exceptionally useful, I don't see why the Guard should be penalized their actual attacks in CC even though it would make sense in reality. It's unneccesary points wise to penalize them. It is after all an order that makes the guy giving orders just a little more varied. But, that's just me, and I imagine others could work something out if it was agreed they should. Also the wording of the rule may need rewriting I suppose. (As in, versus Initiative instead of WS, or versus Initiative instead of Toughness. Your guys call.)

Ahhh, now I see. I think a slightly better way to say it would be "each model with a Bayonet charging or being charged this turn makes one extra attack before any other attacks are rolled. This is at Strength 2 and rolls to hit against the Initiative of the enemy model rather than their weapon skill."

I know other people seem to like it, but I think it still has problems. Now not only are you adding an extra attack, but you're striking faster than any other model on the board. And a Dark Eldar Archon has the same chance of being hit as a space marine (I7 and I4, both are still hit on a 5+). At least I think we all agree an Order is a good idea, but even simply adding Furious Charge is too overpowered for something as simple as a bayonet.

What if the order added +1 Initiative to any model with a lasgun if the unit charged or was charged, but at the cost of -1 Ballistic Skill for lasguns due to the heavy blade on the end of your weapon, and the time it takes to put it on? Effects last until the start of the player's next turn.

That gives the guard unit a slight buff based on the reach of their weapon (and probably moreso the psychological effects of a bayonet charge) without adding any extra strength or attacks, while still having serious downsides. If you are charging it's useful, but if you're receiving a charge it's a trade-off.

Wow, thinking too hard on this, really guys.

Look to the existing rules and see what fits and use it.

In this case I have two suggestions. If you want to emphasize the bayonet as a way to prepare to receive a charge, I suggest Counter Attack USR. If you instead want to emphasize the grand bayonet charges of years gone by (not that far ago either, was one in Iraq in 2004) go with Furious Charge.

IG melee is already pokey end of stick... ot officaly but it is what we say cuz i mean what are you gonna do punch them when you have a rifle bayonets

I imagine we're all putting up ideas out of enjoyment, I'd gather the original poster is likely the one who may really use it. Counter Attack and Furious Charge just seem a bit powerful as it were. Nothing wrong with new rules, spices the game up.
And a good punch never hurt any...wait...yes...yes it did.

Or, they get a +1 Intiative bonus if in cover when the enemy charges.

Or they count as having assualt grenades when charging into cover?

Agreed that the universal special rules are too powerful for something so small, and also that this isn't really intended to be useful. It's just a bit of fun and character.

Bloodhorror wrote:
Or, they get a +1 Intiative bonus if in cover when the enemy charges.

Or they count as having assualt grenades when charging into cover?

I really like this. Make it an Order that confers both until the start of the player's next turn. The effect is small and it's unlikely a Guard player would waste an order on it, but if you want to for fun's sake, go for it.