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Can I use Deathleaper to lower Mephistons LD or does it have to be a model with "Character" in its special rules?

Well it doesn't specifically say someone with the "Independent Character" USR, it just says "character". I would say he's fair game, although since pretty much every ruling seems to have to screw over the Nids, I get the feeling this will go the other way. :/

Technically there's no such thing as a "charector". But then IIRC it was either tyranid or ork book that referred to the "large blast template" so GW aren't always great with semantics.
I assume it means "independant charector" which, unfortunely, Mephiston is not. That's one of the few areas where that's actually an upside though since it's a deliberate nerf to him.

Unless it says independant character Id guess you could. Isnt he fearless though? so itd be slightly pointless to lower it anyway...?

The model must have character in its special rules, I think.

Mephiston doesn't? That's weird. I was expecting him to have that.

Note - There is no difference between character and independent character. They are both more or less the same. The only difference is that IC can join or leave squads at will, but besides that there is no distinction.
My reasoning for this is that the word "character" is present in each case. I am sure them saying "character" in the deathleaper entry is a catch all term, as it would be a bit of a mess to go through the trouble of pedantically adding both types.

No, Mephiston is neither an independent character nor a "character".

Deathreapers rule can be used to lower the Ld of ANY character by D3. It does not specify IOC, UC or named. Therefore it allows any of them.

This includes anyone with the Independent Character Rule.

Anyone who is named, IC or otherwise. Mephiston, Calgar, Deathleaper, Abbaddon. All counts.

Any upgrade character, like a Sgt, Justicar, Aspiring Champion, Broodlord etc.



Mephiston IS a character. He is a special Character, and is unique. Therefore he is.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Point of knoqledge.

SDeathleaper's Rule works VERY well on one character in particular. This is because him and his unit must always test on his Ld of 8 or lower depending on modifiers. Thus if "It's after me" is used on him, that unit can now become Ld 7 or as little as 5! And any attached characters too! Because the rule is activated at the beginning of the game, which to my knowledge is after deployment, if a person decides

"I'll put Logan Grimnar and Ragnar blackmane in a unit with Lukas, to make an cheap deathstar, plus mega suicide squad if need arise."

Then you potential can have this guys anywhere between Ld 5 and 7.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Coimbined with a few Broodlords with Aura of Despair, and a Tyrant with Psychic Scream or the Horror, you can send that squad packing.


Course you would need to build a list around it but what are you going to do?

Deadshot wrote:Deathreapers rule can be used to lower the Ld of ANY character by D3. It does not specify IOC, UC or named. Therefore it allows any of them.

This includes anyone with the Independent Character Rule.

Anyone who is named, IC or otherwise. Mephiston, Calgar, Deathleaper, Abbaddon. All counts.

Any upgrade character, like a Sgt, Justicar, Aspiring Champion, Broodlord etc.



Mephiston IS a character. He is a special Character, and is unique. Therefore he is.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Point of knoqledge.

SDeathleaper's Rule works VERY well on one character in particular. This is because him and his unit must always test on his Ld of 8 or lower depending on modifiers. Thus if "It's after me" is used on him, that unit can now become Ld 7 or as little as 5! And any attached characters too! Because the rule is activated at the beginning of the game, which to my knowledge is after deployment, if a person decides

"I'll put Logan Grimnar and Ragnar blackmane in a unit with Lukas, to make an cheap deathstar, plus mega suicide squad if need arise."

Then you potential can have this guys anywhere between Ld 5 and 7.

His entry in the codex says "unique". It does not say Character or Independant Character. Mephiston is unique because he has that in his entry, not because he is a character or special character.

He is not a character in any way. He is a unique infantry model. Deathleapers rule can not be used on Mephiston.

He is a Character.Unique models are characters! Unique is a rule under Characters in the ruklebook. Hence he is a character.

Unique entries are characters, but not always Independent Characters.

kirsanth wrote:If not how does that reconcile with page 85 of the Tyranid codex, Legendary Creatures?
If I make my Swarmlord part of a unique Hive Fleet it is a special character, but not if I do not?
Editing in a bit I missed: The Tyranid FAQ specifically names the Unique models as Special Characters as well in the first question of the third page.

Also, how does that relate to the rules for Unique characters in the main rulebook, page 49?
There are many Unique characters choices that are apparently not characters so these rules would not apply?

blood lance wrote:Unless it says independant character Id guess you could. Isnt he fearless though? so itd be slightly pointless to lower it anyway...?

Contrary to common belief, Fearless does not pas every Ld based test. They would still have to pass psychic tests for example. Or the Doom of malan'Tai's Spirit Leech Test. Or a test caused by Shackle Soul.

Deadshot wrote:He is a Character.Unique models are characters! Unique is a rule under Characters in the ruklebook. Hence he is a character.

Ok, yes, under unique its defined as a character. BRB p 49 (why didn't they just put character on his profile???) This is correct.

They didn't put "Character2 as a rule because it isn't one. Independent Character isn't even. It is a definition of what he can do, at least in my opinion.

Basically, for the same rerasons Sgts don't have the "Upgrade Character" SR.

Deadshot wrote:He is a Character.Unique models are characters! Unique is a rule under Characters in the ruklebook. Hence he is a character.

He is deliberately NOT a character to prevent him joining other squads, therefore he is NOT.

Cheers now to see if I can give someone a very rude shock when he assaults my primes.

Joey wrote:

Deadshot wrote:He is a Character.Unique models are characters! Unique is a rule under Characters in the ruklebook. Hence he is a character.

He is deliberately NOT an Independent character to prevent him joining other squads, therefore he is NOT.

Fixed.

Non-Independent characters have no rules for joining a squad either.

Joey wrote:

Deadshot wrote:He is a Character.Unique models are characters! Unique is a rule under Characters in the ruklebook. Hence he is a character.

He is deliberately NOT a character to prevent him joining other squads, therefore he is NOT.

Character is a category. INDEPENDENT character is a subcategory of character.. Upgrade Character is also a sub cat. Prevention of joining units doesn't relate to whether or not they fall under the main "Character" category. It's determined by whether or not they fall under the "IC" sub-category.

Mephiston can stil be a character without being alble to join squads, in the same way a Sgt is a charcater but can't join and leave units.Once he's on his own, he's on his own

I've considered doing this to Mephiston + Shadow in the Warp to bone him on the Psychic Tests. It would be absolutely amazing against Captain Tycho though - if you get a 3 on that D3, then his entire army is going to be Ld7.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Deathreapers rule can be used to lower the Ld of ANY character by D3. It does not specify IOC, UC or named. Therefore it allows any of them.

This includes anyone with the Independent Character Rule.

Anyone who is named, IC or otherwise. Mephiston, Calgar, Deathleaper, Abbaddon. All counts.

Any upgrade character, like a Sgt, Justicar, Aspiring Champion, Broodlord etc.



Mephiston IS a character. He is a special Character, and is unique. Therefore he is.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Point of knoqledge.

SDeathleaper's Rule works VERY well on one character in particular. This is because him and his unit must always test on his Ld of 8 or lower depending on modifiers. Thus if "It's after me" is used on him, that unit can now become Ld 7 or as little as 5! And any attached characters too! Because the rule is activated at the beginning of the game, which to my knowledge is after deployment, if a person decides

"I'll put Logan Grimnar and Ragnar blackmane in a unit with Lukas, to make an cheap deathstar, plus mega suicide squad if need arise."

Then you potential can have this guys anywhere between Ld 5 and 7.

His entry in the codex says "unique". It does not say Character or Independant Character. Mephiston is unique because he has that in his entry, not because he is a character or special character.

He is not a character in any way. He is a unique infantry model. Deathleapers rule can not be used on Mephiston.

He is a special character, and as such a "Character" per the BRB definition(page 49, oddly enough under the title "special Characters" who knew?)

Further, his own codex allows for the extrapolation of him as a Character(Special or otherwise) on page 81 of the BA codex you have the entry "Blood Angels and Other Chapters" therein it explains(beginning of second paragraph): "This should not prevent you from using one or more of the Blood Angels special characters (or indeed from using Gabriel Seth, a Flesh Tearers character, alongside a Blood Angels army)." This informs us that Gabriel Seth is a Special Character; something his rules do not.

Then we can go to the Last sentence in the above referenced paragraph on page 81 of the BA codex: "Alternatively, you can use the model and rules for a named character to represent a mighty hero of a different chapter - for example, using the rules and model for Captain Tycho as a Blood Drinkers captain, or of a Space Marine chapter of your own design - you just need to come up with a new name." So here we again have rules informing us that Captain Tycho is a Character, Something that his entry also Lacks.

In short: The Named, Unique personages in the BA codex can all be extrapolated to be Special Characters and Special characters are Characters using only their own book; but adding to that the BRB definition of a special character clinches both that the Named personages in the BA Codex are in fact Special Characters.

Joey wrote:

Deadshot wrote:He is a Character.Unique models are characters! Unique is a rule under Characters in the ruklebook. Hence he is a character.

He is deliberately NOT a character to prevent him joining other squads, therefore he is NOT.

Independent character = character. However character =/= independant character.

I'm willing to bet that this is something they're going to extrapolate in 6th, I've noticed that the GK Codex specifies character beside unit type, as well as special rules, whereas the BA one does not.

So does the Necron book. I'm sure we will see more with 6th edition.

Deadshot wrote:

Joey wrote:

Deadshot wrote:He is a Character.Unique models are characters! Unique is a rule under Characters in the ruklebook. Hence he is a character.

He is deliberately NOT a character to prevent him joining other squads, therefore he is NOT.

Character is a category. INDEPENDENT character is a subcategory of character.. Upgrade Character is also a sub cat. Prevention of joining units doesn't relate to whether or not they fall under the main "Character" category. It's determined by whether or not they fall under the "IC" sub-category.

Mephiston can stil be a character without being alble to join squads, in the same way a Sgt is a charcater but can't join and leave units.Once he's on his own, he's on his own

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Joey wrote:

Deadshot wrote:He is a Character.Unique models are characters! Unique is a rule under Characters in the ruklebook. Hence he is a character.

He is deliberately NOT a character to prevent him joining other squads, therefore he is NOT.

Independent character = character. However character =/= independant character.

The rules clearly define what a character is and isn't. Please don't use semantics in order to make some really serious rules-based point that doesn't need making. It's not helpful to the OP, or anyone for that matter.
Note that in no part of Mephiston's description is the word "character" used. He is Infantry.

I concur that Mephy is a character, hes a named character which makes him a special character, which makes him a character.

Joey wrote:Note that in no part of Mephiston's description is the word "character" used. He is Infantry.

It isn't needed since Unique models are characters.

See above.

Joey wrote:He is Infantry.

That's his unit type. You can have an independant character that is Jump Infantry.

There are 3 types of character defined in the rulebook:
Independent character, Upgrade character (P47) & Special character (P49)

Mephiston would fall under the third category. An Imperial guard Commander would fall into the second. An Ork Warboss the first. All are Unit Type Infantry, all are characters.

Joey - you are 100% wrong on this.

Characters are Upgrade, Special and Independent. Being named or having "unique" makes you a Special Character. Special Characters are Characters

You are mistaking Character for Independent Character; one is a subset of the other, they are not the exact same thing.

Deathleaper works perfectly well on Mephy.

grendel083 wrote:

Joey wrote:He is Infantry.

That's his unit type. You can have an independant character that is Jump Infantry.

There are 3 types of character defined in the rulebook:
Independent character, Upgrade character (P47) & Special character (P49)

Mephiston would fall under the third category. An Imperial guard Commander would fall into the second. An Ork Warboss the first. All are Unit Type Infantry, all are characters.

Having double checked, this is correct. Anything that is "unique" is also a character.

So generic demon princes are safe?

Yup.