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I had this in a recent games and would like some rule justifications:

A unit of 10-man Death Company (with Rage) gets out of a Stormraven that has not moved. They are placed around the Stormraven so that they are a bit more than 1" from a Land speeder and a bit more than 1" from a librarian.

Because of Rage, I asks that every single model of DC be moved either at the Land Speeder OR at the Librarian a full 6". However, my opponent quotes that Rage rules only asks the "units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy" (BRB pg76). Thus, he chose the target as the librarian. He then moved one model in his unit to exactly 1" leaving everybody else staying where they were (2" in coherency).

Then, in the assault phase, he multi-assault both targets since Rage only limit that his unit "always consolidate towards the closest visible enemy".

I see his point of view and would like a clarification from the rule experts.

They get to make their disembark move as per normal and since that put them 1" away from a model they had done enough to ensure that the rules were observed.
The unit had moved towards the nearest enemy model... the models in the unit can move however they like just so long as the rules of rage have been observed.

He was correct in what he did. As long as the unit "Moved towards the closest enemy" then his is fine. He can choose to charge the DC at whatever unit he wishes.

The unit needs to move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit.

We know that we measure between units by measuring between their closest models.

So once you move the closest model as close to the enemy as possible, the rest just need to keep coherency.

IMO you need to move every model as close as possible to the nearest enemy unit, and that's how I play my Death Company.

Yakface covers it well here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/351171.page#2527569

I see what Yak is getting at, but I do not agree 100%.

If you ask the required question "Has the unit moved as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit?"

And If the model that started as the closest model has moved as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit, then the requirements have been fulfilled and the answer is yes.

I get what Yakface is talking about there, but he is talking about people obviously breaking with the spirit of the rule completely.

I think this is more a case of using the DC cleverly, I get around rage by using a SR to hawl them into place.

True I understand what he wants, however once you're that 1" away you've fully obligated the rule. Definite case of RaW versus RAI possibly

I think that's a misapplication of the rule on measuring between units.

I don't believe moving a single model as close as possible honestly fulfills the requirements of Rage.

Well if you surround the model in question with the unit of dc, then you have moved some of them too far for raw so what do you do?

Move them all as close as they can get.

Mannahnin wrote:I think that's a misapplication of the rule on measuring between units.

I don't believe moving a single model as close as possible honestly fulfills the requirements of Rage.

In other words, I understand that moving one model counts the whole unit moving, however "the unit" consists of many models. Moving one model is not moving "the unit" as fast as possible. What is the fastest way "the unit" can get across the board? By moving all models.

Rage is one of those rules if you try to break it down into little RAW elements it doesn't quite work. Problems come up like how do you move if you're 1" away already from an enemy and how do you know which enemy is the closest unless you pre-measure to every unit that could be the closest?

It has to be played in the spirit of the rule. You have to move every model.

Well when it comes to any question over which is closer call over someone else and get them to measure and tell you which is closest.

Spirit of the rule dies on it's feet with a transport. When you move around or through cover you bunch up the models, when you pass that obstical then you can't spread your men back out in that reading of the rules.

This is like deploying vehicles sideways to gain movement, or making sure each Nob contains unique equipment, or spamming a million Razorbacks, or anything like that. You're technically obeying the rules. But, you're definitely exploiting them to gain an advantage.

In some environments, that's perfectly acceptable and somewhat expected. In other environments, people will accuse you of being TFG or WAAC.

Unfortunately "fastest" is an undefined term in the rules. By RAW the most sensible determinant for "fastest" would appear to be that if the distance between closest models is decreased by the maximum amount possible moving the closet model directly towards the target, the unit has moved has moved as fast as possible. (Because you measure distance between units by measuring the distance between closest models.) Or we can get really stupid and go with the fact that the measurement of "how fast" is distance over time, which means that "fastest" must be by the longest distance and not the most direct distance. (Because every unit is moving for the same unspecified amount of time, therefore the unit that has moved the most distance in that unspecified length of time has moved the fastest.)

But the RAI is so absolutely clear that playing the RAW is going to make you TFG to nine out ten gamers. Move all the models towards the closest visible enemy. It's just a game of toy soldiers.

Mannahnin wrote:IMO you need to move every model as close as possible to the nearest enemy unit, and that's how I play my Death Company.

Yakface covers it well here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/351171.page#2527569

This sums up how my group has always read the rule. Anything less is rules lawyering in a pretty blatant fashion against what is possibly the easiest rule to determine the original intent of.


EDIT: To the OP: your oppponent was TFG.

azazel the cat wrote:
This sums up how my group has always read the rule. Anything less is rules lawyering in a pretty blatant fashion against what is possibly the easiest rule to determine the original intent of.


EDIT: To the OP: your oppponent was TFG.

I disagree with you here. I would say if that model that moved 1" moved as closley to the enemy model as he could then the requirement has been fuffiled as when one model in the unit moves the unit has moved. If this was not the case you would be able to move some guys in a squad and then not move a heavy weapon and then use him to shoot in you shooting phase. But we all kniw this is not that case and if one model in the unit moves it counts as the unit having moved.

So going by the OP's description I would say the reuirments for rage had been fuffiled and that what he did was legal.

So I would say its perfectly acceptable if someone did it against me I would just think to my self that it was a smart tactic. I would definatly not say he is a TFG just smart.

How did you manage to quote my entire post and yet miss every point?

Go back and re-read what I said about rules lawyering against the most obvious of intentions behind a rule.

redkeyboard wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:
This sums up how my group has always read the rule. Anything less is rules lawyering in a pretty blatant fashion against what is possibly the easiest rule to determine the original intent of.


EDIT: To the OP: your oppponent was TFG.

I disagree with you here. I would say if that model that moved 1" moved as closley to the enemy model as he could then the requirement has been fuffiled as when one model in the unit moves the unit has moved. If this was not the case you would be able to move some guys in a squad and then not move a heavy weapon and then use him to shoot in you shooting phase. But we all kniw this is not that case and if one model in the unit moves it counts as the unit having moved.

So going by the OP's description I would say the reuirments for rage had been fuffiled and that what he did was legal.

So I would say its perfectly acceptable if someone did it against me I would just think to my self that it was a smart tactic. I would definatly not say he is a TFG just smart.

The rule does not just say to move the unit towards the nearest enemy.

It says to move the unit towards the nearest enemy as fast as possible. How fast can your unit move if you just move 1 guy?

1) Moving just 1 guy.
Slow
2) Moving all models.
Faster

You see?

Except we know that the unit has moved as fast as possible if the closest model moves the full 6" (Or whatever highest number you roll for your difficult terrain test) towards the nearest visible enemy unit. by the most direct route.

This is because measuring between units measures from the closest models.

So the rest of the unit simply needs to maintain coherency.

The instance in question looks correct. He moved as fast as possible to the nearest visible enemy. If as fast as possible is an inch then all that needs to be done to validate the rule is to move the unit that far, as in any part of the unit. It doesn't say each model affectect by rage needs to move as fast as possible towards the nearest visible enemy does it? It doesn't mean he is being TFG to follow RAW.

Yeah, I think I agree with Mannahnin here. It says that the UNIT moves as close as it possibly can, implying the entire unit. If any part of the unit can continue moving, it's got to continue moving.

After all, rage doesnt' say that you move the unit until it gets one model close enough, it says that you move the unit as much as you can move it, assuming "as fast as possible" means "as many inches as possible".

"When measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points...".P.3

So if the closest model has moved as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit, then the unit has moved as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit.

The rest simply need to maintain coherency.

DeathReaper wrote:"When measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points...".P.3

So if the closest model has moved as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit, then the unit has moved as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit.

The rest simply need to maintain coherency.

Yes, indeed. In your example:

1) The unit counts has having moved.
2) One model from that unit moved as fast as possible.
3) The distance between the two units, measured between the closest models may be 1".

However...

3) The unit consists of many models. The individual models that make up the unit did not actually in fact move.
"The unit" (all the models in it) could be closer and move "faster"..

You've satisfied the meaning of each part of the rule as it's broken down pieces relate to other game rules. As a whole, you have not satisfied the meaning of the rule. The unit consists of all models in the unit. To break it down even further. If you move 1 model, did the other models in the unit move?
In some game terms they all "count as having moved". In common understanding of the unit consisting of all of its models, no the other models did not move at all and so not as fast as possible.

We've all heard of Legal Loopholes being used by people to do some pretty unscrupulous things. This honestly sounds like one of those moments. Personally I think the spirit of the game (and the spirit of the rules) should play some part, not abandoned because applying a strict interpretation of the rules would give a small advantage.

Is this a legal move?
Yes, sounds like it.

Is this move right?
No, it goes against what Rage is all about.

But I'm aware this is YMDC can we all debate the RAW. As mention yes I think this is a legal move, just don't expect praise for using it.

I think it's illegal. If you move one element of a unit, the entire unit is considered to have moved. If it is possible to continue moving elements of the unit toward the nearest enemy model, then you legally have to, as they are required to go the maximum distance toward that enemy. 0 inches is not the maximum distance if the element can go 4 inches, thus you have to move the model 4 inches. Moving 1 model in the unit doesn't satisfy the rule requirement if other models are able to move closer.

I hate poorly written rules with seemingly obvious intentions.......so many TFG's out there.

It's actually faster to only move one model because it takes less time than moving several.

-666- wrote:It's actually faster to only move one model because it takes less time than moving several.

I had not even though of this. I concede to your irrefutable reason and logic.

I see now, playing slowly is explicitly forbidden in RAW while moving models with rage.

Which is why debating the RAW technicalities of an undefined term like "fastest" is pointless.

The RAI of the rule is clear. If winning a game of toy soldiers is so important to someone that they don't want to play the RAI, there's not much to say.

You can't blame a player for an inappropriately term chosen by a game developer.