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I have another, bonus query about rage (not sure if connected):

3 models on the left rage towards the one on the right. The distance to the fence is 2" from the both units. The closest passable route from units is 12".
Does pink unit hug the fence and move 2" or try to go around the fence and move 6" (typical)?

If the fence is impassible can the units draw los to one another, if not then the rage unit can move as it sees fit unless there is another enemy unit in los.
If the unit can draw los then you check if the other unit is the closest, if it is then move towards it as fast as possible towards the enemy unit, which is around the impassible terrain in the same way you would move around a squad or tank in the way.

If the fence is not impassible, then the following:
The unit moves as fast as possible, which in this case is D6" then a few different things can happen:
1 -if it gets beyond the wall on the difficult terrain move, it can shoot and assault normally.
2 -if it doesn't get beyond the wall you can shoot and try to assault D6" and use the frag grenades to strike at I5.
3 -if it doesn't get beyond the wall you can run D6" to get beyond the wall and assault normally.
4 -if it doesn't get beyond the wall on the difficult terrain move or during the run, it may still try to assault D6" and use the frag grenades to strike at I5.
5 -you get 3 rolls of double cry and hope for better luck next time.

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:Weird, I can't find this in the rulebook, what page does it specify that this is the definition of "fastest"?

There isn't one. So you have two options:

1) The word means nothing and is fluff. This makes Rage pointless, so this option should be discarded.
2) You go with the normal meaning of the word - highest speed. Speed is distance over a period of time.

Or a third option:
3)GW want the player to move every model as close as possible to the nearest enemy but phrased it sloppily
RAW supports none of these options, so you preferring your own other the other is subjective and, once again, has nothing to do with RAW.

Your third option has no basis in any of the words in the rules. The second option does.
Therefore it's RAW.

You can disagree with it, you can dislike it, you can even get your area to play it your way.
But it has no basis in the rules. Rage uses the word unit and fastest.

I'm still waiting on an answer...

First you have to find the closest unit - this is done by measuring between units.
Then you move the unit. Moving one model is a perfectly legal move.
You then measure to see if your movement to the closest unit got as close as you could.
If not, it's an illegal move.

How is that not a valid interpretation?

I'm not making up or inserting words anywhere. Your interpretation does. Which one is more valid?

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:Weird, I can't find this in the rulebook, what page does it specify that this is the definition of "fastest"?

There isn't one. So you have two options:

1) The word means nothing and is fluff. This makes Rage pointless, so this option should be discarded.
2) You go with the normal meaning of the word - highest speed. Speed is distance over a period of time.

Or a third option:
3)GW want the player to move every model as close as possible to the nearest enemy but phrased it sloppily
RAW supports none of these options, so you preferring your own other the other is subjective and, once again, has nothing to do with RAW.

Your third option has no basis in any of the words in the rules. The second option does.
Therefore it's RAW.

You can disagree with it, you can dislike it, you can even get your area to play it your way.
But it has no basis in the rules. Rage uses the word unit and fastest.

Right, now tell me where the rulebook defines what "as fast as possible" means. You can't, because it doesn't. You are assuming your interpretation by default because GW didn't supply one.
If there was a bit in the rulebook that said "When the term 'as fast as possible' is used, it means move the unit as close as possible" then you'd be right. But it doesn't. So stop making up rules.

Testify wrote:
Right, now tell me where the rulebook defines what "as fast as possible" means. You can't, because it doesn't. You are assuming your interpretation by default because GW didn't supply one.
If there was a bit in the rulebook that said "When the term 'as fast as possible' is used, it means move the unit as close as possible" then you'd be right. But it doesn't. So stop making up rules.

Okay, so the rule does nothing then, awesome.

When there's no rule definition, you go to normal English definitions. Or, you decide that 40k is absolutely unplayable. Those are literally the only two options.

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:
Right, now tell me where the rulebook defines what "as fast as possible" means. You can't, because it doesn't. You are assuming your interpretation by default because GW didn't supply one.
If there was a bit in the rulebook that said "When the term 'as fast as possible' is used, it means move the unit as close as possible" then you'd be right. But it doesn't. So stop making up rules.

Okay, so the rule does nothing then, awesome.

No, the rule is interpreted by the gamers.
"The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours."
Note that unlike anything you have come up with, this is in the rulebook. A rule is badly written, so players have to figure out what it means for themselves. Making up rules to get around a disadvantage is called "cheating" and I'd call it on anyone who tried this on me.

rigeld2 wrote: Or, you decide that 40k is absolutely unplayable.

By RAW, pretty much.

Arschbombe wrote:

rigeld2 wrote: Or, you decide that 40k is absolutely unplayable.

By RAW, pretty much.

Not in this case, oddly enough.

Look rage isn't absolute even with a strick RAW interpertation, no need to get bitter.

Using rage:
I can move into a transport instead of assaulting a unit 2" away.
I can run towards the nearest unit and charge another unit in the assault phase as I haven't shot I am not locked into assaulting anyone.

I think that the lax rule is there to try to get you out of situations where a player has two units 18" away from you and uses both to keep your units running back and forth between them.

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:
Right, now tell me where the rulebook defines what "as fast as possible" means. You can't, because it doesn't. You are assuming your interpretation by default because GW didn't supply one.
If there was a bit in the rulebook that said "When the term 'as fast as possible' is used, it means move the unit as close as possible" then you'd be right. But it doesn't. So stop making up rules.

Okay, so the rule does nothing then, awesome.

No, the rule is interpreted by the gamers.
"The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours."
Note that unlike anything you have come up with, this is in the rulebook. A rule is badly written, so players have to figure out what it means for themselves. Making up rules to get around a disadvantage is called "cheating" and I'd call it on anyone who tried this on me.

1) Citing TMIR in YMDC is against the tenets - you should check on that.
2) Everything I've cited is in the rulebook - unlike your assertion that the rule is model based.
3) I am a gamer. I'm reading the rule. There's no interpretation required.

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:
Right, now tell me where the rulebook defines what "as fast as possible" means. You can't, because it doesn't. You are assuming your interpretation by default because GW didn't supply one.
If there was a bit in the rulebook that said "When the term 'as fast as possible' is used, it means move the unit as close as possible" then you'd be right. But it doesn't. So stop making up rules.

Okay, so the rule does nothing then, awesome.

No, the rule is interpreted by the gamers.
"The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours."
Note that unlike anything you have come up with, this is in the rulebook. A rule is badly written, so players have to figure out what it means for themselves. Making up rules to get around a disadvantage is called "cheating" and I'd call it on anyone who tried this on me.

1) Citing TMIR in YMDC is against the tenets - you should check on that.
2) Everything I've cited is in the rulebook - unlike your assertion that the rule is model based.
3) I am a gamer. I'm reading the rule. There's no interpretation required.

I am not making any assertions, just countering yours.
Your thought process seems to be:
This rule is ambiguous written -> therefore it means something completely unintuitive and obviously not was intended. This is called cheating.

I'm saying the rule is ambiguously written and is therefore open to interpretation.

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:
Right, now tell me where the rulebook defines what "as fast as possible" means. You can't, because it doesn't. You are assuming your interpretation by default because GW didn't supply one.
If there was a bit in the rulebook that said "When the term 'as fast as possible' is used, it means move the unit as close as possible" then you'd be right. But it doesn't. So stop making up rules.

Okay, so the rule does nothing then, awesome.

No, the rule is interpreted by the gamers.
"The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours."
Note that unlike anything you have come up with, this is in the rulebook. A rule is badly written, so players have to figure out what it means for themselves. Making up rules to get around a disadvantage is called "cheating" and I'd call it on anyone who tried this on me.

1) Citing TMIR in YMDC is against the tenets - you should check on that.
2) Everything I've cited is in the rulebook - unlike your assertion that the rule is model based.
3) I am a gamer. I'm reading the rule. There's no interpretation required.

I am not making any assertions, just countering yours.
Your thought process seems to be:
This rule is ambiguous written -> therefore it means something completely unintuitive and obviously not was intended. This is called cheating.

No. That's absolutely not what my thought process is.
The rule is not ambiguous. It says that the unit must move as fast as possible. We know how to move units, based on English we know how to define fastest.
Thanks for calling me a cheater though. I appreciate it.

I'm saying the rule is ambiguously written and is therefore open to interpretation.

You're inserting the ambiguity based on your unfounded assumption that the rule should be model based.

rigeld2 wrote:No. That's absolutely not what my thought process is.
The rule is not ambiguous. It says that the unit must move as fast as possible. We know how to move units, based on English we know how to define fastest.

Fast= doing something as quickly as possible. RAW you'd have to move the models as quick as was physically possible. Does that sound to you like a reasonable rule? Next time my opponent fails his instinctive behaivour test, I'll whip out a stopwatch and start timing him. Failure to do it "as fast as possible" as per the rules, will be a breach of the rules.
Protip - if the rule wanted to say "as close as possible", it would.

rigeld2 wrote:
You're inserting the ambiguity based on your unfounded assumption that the rule should be model based.

I'm not asserting anything. I'm saying common sense should go one way, but RAW is undefined.

Testify wrote:. I'm saying common sense should go one way, but RAW is undefined.

This is literally backwards.

RAW tells us how to measure the distances between units.
Reducing that distance in as few turns as possible is as fast as possible.

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:No. That's absolutely not what my thought process is.
The rule is not ambiguous. It says that the unit must move as fast as possible. We know how to move units, based on English we know how to define fastest.

Fast= doing something as quickly as possible.

Whoah there cowboy. Yes, "fast" has multiple definitions. That one doesn't make any sense within the context of the rules.
Which one does... lemme see... oh, the one that describes speed.
And what is speed? We learned it in elementary school - it's measured in distance over time.

Protip - if the rule wanted to say "as close as possible", it would.

Protip - if you have to preface what you're saying with "Protip" it's usually not worth it.
Do you know why they didn't say that? Neither do I. You're assuming they didn't put it there because that's not what they meant.

rigeld2 wrote:
You're inserting the ambiguity based on your unfounded assumption that the rule should be model based.

I'm not asserting anything. I'm saying common sense should go one way, but RAW is undefined.

RAW is only undefined if you use definitions for words that don't make sense.
You are the one making the rule ambiguous in your reading. That doesn't mean the rule is actually ambiguous.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:the unit must move as fast as possible.

We know what a unit is.

Q: What is as fast as possible?

A: Covering the most distance in the shortest amount of time.

Weird, I can't find this in the rulebook, what page does it specify that this is the definition of "fastest"?

What page is the definition of roll on?

We have to determine what "as fast as possible" means, as it is undefined in the BRB.

"as fast as possible" is covering the most distance over the shortest period of time, This we know from the common English definitions.

rigeld2 wrote:Speed is distance over a period of time.
[...]
Except it has *everything* to do with speed. Speed is defined as distance over time. Time is one movement phase. Distance is measured as I quoted.

Yes, it is a distance, but once again: it's not the distance to some random reference point - i.e. the target unit which you just picked out.
Just because distance to some object changed by X doesn't mean that speed in given time is X.
You try to apply physical model but apply not the distance covered but some strange change of distance to one reference point. It may be just my pet peeve but you are using the wrong distance, even if the outcome is the same.

Could you also answer my bonus question...?

By your interpretation:
All 3 models in the Rage unit would move to the fence and stop, and be unable to move otherwise.

By a sane interpretation:
The unit moves to go around the fence while leaving one model as close as possible.

And what exactly is "my interpretation"? How does it work and where did I explain it? You must be psychic or all-knowing because I didn't state how I think it should work.
It's actually your rule that is "insane" (first one given) because if only distance is taken under consideration the closest to the unit will be hugging the fence and not trying to go around it.

No that isn't moving towards the enemy. See my post above and read it clearly, I run through all the possible permutations of what a unit with rage can do in that situation.

Sitting at the fence isn't how the rule works and you would be some almighty rules lawyer and a complete TFG to rule that that is how rage works in this situation. You move towards the nearest enemy, as in around obsticles and the like to get into cc.

Macok wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Speed is distance over a period of time.
[...]
Except it has *everything* to do with speed. Speed is defined as distance over time. Time is one movement phase. Distance is measured as I quoted.

Yes, it is a distance, but once again: it's not the distance to some random reference point - i.e. the target unit which you just picked out.
Just because distance to some object changed by X doesn't mean that speed in given time is X.
You try to apply physical model but apply not the distance covered but some strange change of distance to one reference point. It may be just my pet peeve but you are using the wrong distance, even if the outcome is the same.

Random reference point? You mean the other unit that Rage refers to?
There's two reference points. Distance from the target unit before you started moving (which you know from measuring to find the closest unit) and distance from the target after you're done moving (which you know because you have to measure to ensure compliance with Rage).
How is that wrong?

Could you also answer my bonus question...?

By your interpretation:
All 3 models in the Rage unit would move to the fence and stop, and be unable to move otherwise.

By a sane interpretation:
The unit moves to go around the fence while leaving one model as close as possible.

And what exactly is "my interpretation"? How does it work and where did I explain it? You must be psychic or all-knowing because I didn't state how I think it should work.
It's actually your rule that is "insane" (first one given) because if only distance is taken under consideration the closest to the unit will be hugging the fence and not trying to go around it.

... have you even read what I've said? One model moves and hugs the fence. The other two start to move around it.
This works because the rule is unit based. If it was model based, all 3 models would be hugging the fence and unable to move.
I figured that was your interpretation because you've been arguing with me and saying I'm wrong, and there's only been 2 points of view in this thread.

Time is relative, therefore speed is too.

So whether someone is moving fast depends entirely on the person observing it.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Time is relative, therefore speed is too.

So whether someone is moving fast depends entirely on the person observing it.

Time is defined as the movement phase, so that's not too subjective.

rigeld2 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Time is relative, therefore speed is too.

So whether someone is moving fast depends entirely on the person observing it.

Time is defined as the movement phase, so that's not too subjective.

Right, so the unit only moving 1" as opposed to 6" means that the unit has not moved as fast as possible as it hasn't moved as far in the same amount of time.

Therefore its speed, or more specifically velocity as it has direction (toward the nearest unit), will be lower.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Time is relative, therefore speed is too.

So whether someone is moving fast depends entirely on the person observing it.

Time is defined as the movement phase, so that's not too subjective.

Right, so the unit only moving 1" as opposed to 6" means that the unit has not moved as fast as possible as it hasn't moved as far in the same amount of time.

Therefore its speed, or more specifically velocity as it has direction (toward the nearest unit), will be lower.

... right. I haven't said that moving 1" is okay - unless the target unit is only 2" away.
The closest model has to move as fast as possible (ie - use the most movement it can) towards the enemy unit. Everyone else can do whatever as long as they maintain coherency.

rigeld2 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Time is relative, therefore speed is too.

So whether someone is moving fast depends entirely on the person observing it.

Time is defined as the movement phase, so that's not too subjective.

Right, so the unit only moving 1" as opposed to 6" means that the unit has not moved as fast as possible as it hasn't moved as far in the same amount of time.

Therefore its speed, or more specifically velocity as it has direction (toward the nearest unit), will be lower.

... right. I haven't said that moving 1" is okay - unless the target unit is only 2" away.
The closest model has to move as fast as possible (ie - use the most movement it can) towards the enemy unit. Everyone else can do whatever as long as they maintain coherency.

No the unit has to move as fast as possible. So if someone in the unit can move 6" he should, otherwise the unit has only moved 1" in the same amount of time, resulting in a slower speed.

So if understanding correctly, people are claiming that if there is a piece of impassible Terrain (like a gorge) partially blocking a unit with rage they cannot go around because they are "going away" from the closest unit even though they ARE moving as fast as possible to get to the unit on the other side. In addition the rage unit must be "clumped up".

I agree with DeathReaper and Regled2. The unit is comprised of models. The unit has rage. As long as the closest model in the unit moves as far as possible to bring the unit as close as possible you have satisified the rule.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Time is relative, therefore speed is too.

So whether someone is moving fast depends entirely on the person observing it.

Time is defined as the movement phase, so that's not too subjective.

Right, so the unit only moving 1" as opposed to 6" means that the unit has not moved as fast as possible as it hasn't moved as far in the same amount of time.

Therefore its speed, or more specifically velocity as it has direction (toward the nearest unit), will be lower.

... right. I haven't said that moving 1" is okay - unless the target unit is only 2" away.
The closest model has to move as fast as possible (ie - use the most movement it can) towards the enemy unit. Everyone else can do whatever as long as they maintain coherency.

No the unit has to move as fast as possible. So if someone in the unit can move 6" he should, otherwise the unit has only moved 1" in the same amount of time, resulting in a slower speed.

That's... what I'm saying. Okay?

rigeld2 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Time is relative, therefore speed is too.

So whether someone is moving fast depends entirely on the person observing it.

Time is defined as the movement phase, so that's not too subjective.

Right, so the unit only moving 1" as opposed to 6" means that the unit has not moved as fast as possible as it hasn't moved as far in the same amount of time.

Therefore its speed, or more specifically velocity as it has direction (toward the nearest unit), will be lower.

... right. I haven't said that moving 1" is okay - unless the target unit is only 2" away.
The closest model has to move as fast as possible (ie - use the most movement it can) towards the enemy unit. Everyone else can do whatever as long as they maintain coherency.

No the unit has to move as fast as possible. So if someone in the unit can move 6" he should, otherwise the unit has only moved 1" in the same amount of time, resulting in a slower speed.

That's... what I'm saying. Okay?

No I'm pointing out that moving only the closest model the shortest distance does not satisfy the requirement that they move as fast as possible. They have moved less distance in the same amount of time and therefore moved slower. For them to move as fast as possible (with fast meaning speed as in distance/time) you would need to move the model in the unit that is the furthest away from the closest unit its full movement towards that closest unit and repeat until all models have moved the maximum possible movement they can towards that unit.

If you have a unit whose target is 18" away from the closest model and that unit's furthest model is 25" away; moving its furthest model 6" towards it's target does not move the unit closer to the target in any way measurable.

If the closest model does the exact same thing instead, it has; as far/fast as the unit is permitted to.

editing in instead

A Town Called Malus wrote:
No I'm pointing out that moving only the closest model the shortest distance does not satisfy the requirement that they move as fast as possible. They have moved less distance in the same amount of time and therefore moved slower. For them to move as fast as possible (with fast meaning speed as in distance/time) you would need to move the model in the unit that is the furthest away from the closest unit its full movement towards that closest unit and repeat until all models have moved the maximum possible movement they can towards that unit.

Wrong. See the rules for measuring between units. Only the closest model matters.
So as long as the unit starts more than 6" away (out of terrain) and ends $beginning_distance - 6 inches away, that is as fast as possible.

Sorry if this is threadromancy, the age of the thread is kinda like milk that's been in the fridge for too long, so I'll risk a drink.

I'm all for the spirit of fun and the game, so I would personally play the Rage USR as having to move all the models closer.

On that same note, I have to agree that the OP's opponent's move was legal, as I think that the way that GW intended "As fast as possible" to be the shortest distance to an enemy. For example, a unit with rage would move through dangerous terrain instead of go around.

RAW is irrelevant really. 99% of players play Rage to mean that you move all the models as close as possible to the nearest enemy unit. Woe betide anyone who plays differently.