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So, to begin, here is the 1500 point version of this list:

CCS - lascannon, 2x sniper rifles

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS - 3x autocannons
HWS - 3x autocannons

LRBT - lascannon
LRBT - lascannon
LRBT - lascannon

... and I'm pretty happy with it. 3 power blobs provides a lot of staying power, and three pieces of AV14 will make many lists uncomfortable. Plus, there's a lot of killing power here to go around. The dilemma comes from how to expand this to 1850...

Lemma #1: boots

CCS - lascannon, 2x sniper rifles

Marbo

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS - 3x lascannons
HWS - 3x lascannons

LRBT - lascannon
LRBT - lascannon
LRBT - lascannon


Lemma #2: treads

CCS - lascannon, 2x sniper rifles, meltabombs

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon

LRBT - lascannon
LRBT - lascannon

LRBT - lascannon
LRBT - lascannon

LRBT - lascannon
LRBT - lascannon

So, I like the first option, because it seems the most stable. More durable, more scoring units, more firepower. What's not to love? As for the second option, sweet Holy Emperor of Terra, is that SIX pieces of AV14!? Squadron or no, that's a lot of AV14 to handle, and even the squadroning isn't THAT bad, in part because of the sheer quantity of armor, and in part because of smoke launcher shenanigans.

I mean, they both seem pretty good, and have other reasons for or against in the background (for example, I don't own that many russ models), so I'm trying to get a clearheaded tactical way of looking at things here.

I know your already happy with list but satisfy my curiousity, do the meltas ever do anything?, or do you go trudging around the the blobs i dont get it?

Although i'm still of the opinion that if a blob gets hit by any decent CC army force it'll get munched

Anyway I rate the second list is the better, you might need more pie plates at that point cost

Option One:

1) I think Marbo is rather detrimental in an army stacked to the brim with las cannons and melta guns, unless you come across that rare artillery piece that would just make a mess of your army.

2) It needs two Company Command Squads. Foot lists are notoriously Orders dependant and the Senior Officer's orders are far more lucrative for your Heavy/Special weaponry to be effective. Maybe sliding in a Master of the Fleet to stymie outflanking units.

3) Why are you putting Las Cannons on your Russes when your entire army is fielding them? Use the points from taking out Marbo and give 'em three Heavy Bolters for a much better chance of addressing large groups of infantry.

Option Two:

1) Still not understanding why all your Leman Russes have Las Cannons on them when your entire army is fielding them...

2) Fast Armies may give you a tremendous fit, especially Blood Angels with their FnP bubbles. And Death Company. Period. Carnivals of Flesh also...

3) If your opponent sniffs out and blips your Company Command Squad from giving the orders to twin link your heavy stuff, you might have a problem. 6 Melta Guns and 8 Las Cannons at BS3 could struggle against AV 13/14 Vehicles like the Vindicator or Land Raider.


Option one seems the best of the two, due to your tactical prowess of blobs, though I'd throw in another Company Command Squad w/ or w/out the Master of the Fleet, and give more of a bite to your Russes. All in all option one should be able to address most lists thrown your way (albiet Necrons).

I like list 1, but would take out 1 LC from each blob and HWT, then add 1ML to replaced them. Net 50 pt save and minor wound allocation.

I recommend getting ursarker creed for your company command squad, he can issue four orders a turn, and one unit in your army can scout. this could allow you to get a squad into a much better position before the game starts, or if you really want you can outflank.

I choose lemma #1 with some suggestions and agreement with above posters.
Drop lascannon/snipers from CCS, drop meltaguns from infantry squads and lascannons from LRBT's.
Add Creed and chimera w/ camo netting to CCS.

+1 To creed, Bring it Down Is One of the best orders.

rynnsguard wrote:I choose lemma #1 with some suggestions and agreement with above posters.
Drop lascannon/snipers from CCS, drop meltaguns from infantry squads and lascannons from LRBT's.
Add Creed and chimera w/ camo netting to CCS.

A 215 Points Sink for a vulnerable Company Command Squad with its Camo'd Chimera Bunker BEFORE any other upgrades would be bad, even though he does have access to Furious Charge and Fearless. He still needs to be in LoS with targets which puts him in even more danger, not to mention the Chimera exploding would be bad for one's overall health.

Stifflersthedog wrote:I know your already happy with list but satisfy my curiousity, do the meltas ever do anything?, or do you go trudging around the the blobs i dont get it?

You're right. In all my blobbing, my meltaguns have scarcely gotten to fire. Originally, I was going to save the points by just dropping them.

But then, after a lot more thought, I realised that I couldn't. All of this time with blobs that had meltaguns and no lascannons, my opponents always tried to stay as far away as they possibly could with their vehicles, allowing me to basically push them around the board. The moment I show up with blobs that have lascannons but no meltaguns is the moment I start getting bumrushed by my opponents every game. My opponents are going to see the weakness in close range killing power and exploit it.

With both the melta and the lascannon, my opponents are screwed no matter where they go, and it's that kind of option that I need to be able to counter what my opponents do in the movement phase.

Stifflersthedog wrote:Although i'm still of the opinion that if a blob gets hit by any decent CC army force it'll get munched

You haven't seen enough blobs then.

Plus, a full lot of death company may well be hard for a blob, but a death company that has been riddled with lascannon fire, a few dozen lasguns FRFing them, and the occasional battlecannon "feel THIS pain" shots suddenly makes that deathstar unit much more manageable.

KplKeegan wrote:Option One:

1) I think Marbo is rather detrimental in an army stacked to the brim with las cannons and melta guns, unless you come across that rare artillery piece that would just make a mess of your army.

2) It needs two Company Command Squads. Foot lists are notoriously Orders dependant and the Senior Officer's orders are far more lucrative for your Heavy/Special weaponry to be effective. Maybe sliding in a Master of the Fleet to stymie outflanking units.

3) Why are you putting Las Cannons on your Russes when your entire army is fielding them? Use the points from taking out Marbo and give 'em three Heavy Bolters for a much better chance of addressing large groups of infantry.

1.) Marbo is a detriment?

2.) I've really not found that orders are all that necessary, really. There's only been one time where I threw down an order that I really wanted passed and it wasn't. After all, guns still get to shoot if they're not ordered around, and infantry can still run and go to ground without their officers telling them what to do. Really, orders seem more like the cherry on top of a sunday - a nice touch, but I'd still like it pretty well if it wasn't there.

As for if I should take a second CCS over Marbo, then perhaps. I've gone over a lot of things to do with that extra 60+ points I have, and haven't really come up with anything I've been happy with.

3.) A lascannon on the hull turns a one-shot infantry splatter into a two-shot tank hunter. It also makes it so that it keeps this role even after a single weapon destroyed result. Yes, the rest of my army also has some, but I want even more. I've had enough of mech lists and lists built on fancy toy units, which is why I'm taking three of these at 1500 in the first place.

KplKeegan wrote:Option Two:

1) Still not understanding why all your Leman Russes have Las Cannons on them when your entire army is fielding them...

2) Fast Armies may give you a tremendous fit, especially Blood Angels with their FnP bubbles. And Death Company. Period. Carnivals of Flesh also...

3) If your opponent sniffs out and blips your Company Command Squad from giving the orders to twin link your heavy stuff, you might have a problem. 6 Melta Guns and 8 Las Cannons at BS3 could struggle against AV 13/14 Vehicles like the Vindicator or Land Raider.

1.) see above.

2.) what? You're telling me that the option that has three extra FNP-ignoring battlecannons is going to have MORE of a problem with FNP units? Also, the russ has long-range guns, why will faster armies be more of a problem here?

3.) once again, orders are not required for a guard army to work. The lascannons will still shoot, even if the pair of them in any give blob aren't FNP, or if the HWSs don't pass orders (which they're practically as likely to fail as to pass). If the infantry is going to struggle against heavier vehicles, then it's a good thing that I'm bringing 6 LC LRBTs...

KplKeegan wrote:Option one seems the best of the two, due to your tactical prowess of blobs, though I'd throw in another Company Command Squad w/ or w/out the Master of the Fleet, and give more of a bite to your Russes. All in all option one should be able to address most lists thrown your way (albiet Necrons).

What's wrong with necron?

So, one of the options I could do is to drop marbo and give those 60 points over to three sets of heavy bolter sponsons, but that seemed a little lackluster. I could throw in another CCS instead, but then it does sort of feel like my russes are just sort of hanging on there at the end of the list.

FeindusMaximus wrote:I like list 1, but would take out 1 LC from each blob and HWT, then add 1ML to replaced them. Net 50 pt save and minor wound allocation.

And spend that 50 points on what? If I had 50 more points and the ability to take more lascannons, I'd take more lascannons.

Luke1234567890 wrote:+1 To creed, Bring it Down Is One of the best orders.

regular CCSs can also use this order. Two CCSs will do this for cheaper than a single CCS with creed.

someone* wrote:I recommend getting ursarker creed for your company command squad, he can issue four orders a turn, and one unit in your army can scout. this could allow you to get a squad into a much better position before the game starts, or if you really want you can outflank.

So, the problem with creed outflanking stuff is that the only thing I'd want to outflank here is a blob, but I can't just outflank one of the two blobs in a platoon, and I don't want the whole platoon to have to start in reserves, as that would basically be half my army. Without having something to outflank, then creed just becomes a more expensive version of 2 CCSs, but at half the durability, and the ability to cast FC, which I'm not completely wild about with blobs, power or otherwise.

Ailaros wrote:1.) Marbo is a detriment?

- He's an alpha-striking democharge, which the majority of IG players use for blowing up vehicles or MC's they cannot see from their table edge. He's alot like suicide stormies, except that his anti-tank can backfire. But you have an incredidble amount of Las Cannons and Meltas that, unless there's artillery on the board, you'd be wasting points on Marbo.

3.) A lascannon on the hull turns a one-shot infantry splatter into a two-shot tank hunter. It also makes it so that it keeps this role even after a single weapon destroyed result. Yes, the rest of my army also has some, but I want even more. I've had enough of mech lists and lists built on fancy toy units, which is why I'm taking three of these at 1500 in the first place.

But you have a ton of lascannons already... By the time the Battle Cannons get destroyed there's not going to be anymore armor left. The heavy bolters help add more wounds to those must-kill squads that tumble into cover after their vehicles explode.

What's wrong with necron?

Focus firing. Dropping a couple templates on them is not enough (depending on the list). You gotta shoot every last weapon until the entire unit drops so they can't get Reanimation Protocols. Warriors w/ a Lord and Res Orb (IIRC the Ghost Ark can repair them as well) can get Reanimated on the roll of a +4 instead of five. Then it's the Canoptek Spiders and Scarabs. Those little Scarab cretins could wreck a Land Raider by themselves with Entropic Strike.

And of course there's the Royal Court and their wide array of Crypteks...

KplKeegan wrote: you'd be wasting points on Marbo.

Ah, okay. I thought there was something specifically wrong here.

KplKeegan wrote: The heavy bolters help add more wounds to those must-kill squads...

They add just enough wounds for my opponents to abuse wound wrapping. In 5th ed, heavy bolters are only good against units that are already threatened by heavy bolters, while against things that are afraid of the battlecannon, but not the bolters, it just makes the battlecannon less effective. Unlike a lascannon. Plus, a lascannon IDs T4, ignores all armor saves, and ignores FNP, making it better against tougher units than heavy bolters.

KplKeegan wrote:

What's wrong with necron?

Focus firing. Dropping a couple templates on them is not enough (depending on the list). You gotta shoot every last weapon until the entire unit drops so they can't get Reanimation Protocols. Warriors w/ a Lord and Res Orb (IIRC the Ghost Ark can repair them as well) can get Reanimated on the roll of a +4 instead of five. Then it's the Canoptek Spiders and Scarabs. Those little Scarab cretins could wreck a Land Raider by themselves with Entropic Strike.

Oh, no worries then. Battlecannons aren't useless against necron by a long shot, but I'd still be relying on power blobs to handle stuff. Warriors (in fact, most necron units) aren't good in close combat, and you can't resurrect from being swept.

As for stuff getting in on the tanks, I'd like to see how a scarab swarm (which, by the way, is also very vulnerable to battlecannon fire) would be able to make it into base contact with my vehicles if the tanks are being surrounded by 75+ infantry models.

Marbo: tell me a better spent 65 points that you.

I agree that lascannons on a LRBT is a great way to go. Even if you loose your main gun, you still have a strength 9 weapon available. The fact that you are fielding so many lasguns will usually cause the opposing player a problem with target priority.

Right, as you already know both lists look good. Ignoring tactics and as a preliminary check on lists I look at what it brings in terms of firepower, hulls, and bodies, as well as the number of targets all this can hit.

Your list 1 brings 20 las, 8 melta guns, 3 battlecannons, , on 3 av14 and 100+ bodies. With hit and run character and demo charge thrown in. Assuming 4 blobs and LoS your opening shots could hit a potential 12 targets with the long range weapons.

List 2 brings 15 las, 6 melta guns, 6 battlecannons, 3 power blobs, on 6 av14 and around 80 bodies. With 3 blobs and LoS your potentially hitting 9 targets at range.

This said, I'm liking list 1 better. More bodies, more target potential, more overall firepower, just more flexability.

So, I just thought of another one:

Lemma #3: Vets

CCS - lascannon, sniper rifle

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS - 3x lascannons

Vets - 3x plasma guns, lascannon
Vets - 3x plasma guns, lascannon
Vets - 3x plasma guns, lascannon

LRBT - lascannon
LRBT - lascannon
LRBT - lascannon


... or something.

It actaully gives me more infantry models than the infantry option. It does cut my lascannons by two, and removes the extra pinch of melta, (not to mention the grinding power of the power blob) but it adds the omgwtfbbq of 9 additional plasma guns.

Ailaros wrote:So, I just thought of another one:

Lemma #3: Vets

CCS - lascannon, sniper rifle

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS - 3x lascannons

Vets - 3x plasma guns, lascannon
Vets - 3x plasma guns, lascannon
Vets - 3x plasma guns, lascannon

LRBT - lascannon
LRBT - lascannon
LRBT - lascannon


... or something.

It actaully gives me more infantry models than the infantry option. It does cut my lascannons by two, and removes the extra pinch of melta, (not to mention the grinding power of the power blob) but it adds the omgwtfbbq of 9 additional plasma guns.

That looks like the vet's would make for a really nasty objective holder/firebase with the CCS. Other than that though they couldn't do much, but I guess thats what the 3 powerblobs are for . Then you've got lascannons that are more likely to hit, and plasma guns that could help roast deep strikers. I've used a similar setup before and I was very pleased with it.

I think there all bad

MrMoustaffa wrote:That looks like the vet's would make for a really nasty objective holder/firebase with the CCS. Other than that though they couldn't do much, but I guess thats what the 3 powerblobs are for . Then you've got lascannons that are more likely to hit, and plasma guns that could help roast deep strikers. I've used a similar setup before and I was very pleased with it.

Well, it's more to bring a diversity of firepower to the list. The list already has a lot of offensive capabilities, what with the initial volleys of long-range weapons and the staying power to get in close and grind people down. The vets would bring a little defensive balance back into the list, I guess. I'm sort of thinking of them as ghetto crisis suits. Where there's a problem, there's a 9x plasma gun solution. Plus, it's not like I can't move these guys forward. Getting a single lascannon shot off for a couple of turns might well not be as useful as running forward and unloading 12 or 24" plasma. Plus, I do like that they score...

I've been mulling over other ideas as well, of course, like the idea to fit some power fists in there, or taking melta+lascannon which would free up 45 points to be used for said fists, or for upgrades for the officer squads or something (or to turn that 1xHWS with lascannons into 2x HWS with autocannons, but I'm not sure I like that), or perhaps take some "storm" vets with flamers, shotguns, a powerfist and carapace armor or something. I'm fiddling around with a bunch of things in my mind, but I just don't have the points to do it with any degree of obviousness. I'll just have to think about it more.

Smitty0305 wrote:I think there all bad

... for very articulate reasons, I'm sure...

Maybe dropping the heavy weapons on the vets and instead making the vets have melta/demolitions/ shotguns, and dropping them in with vendetta's/Valkyries would be a good idea?

Then, you've got more lascannons, and scoring units that you could get to wherever you need them. Add in the fact that you can drop them in the enemy lines to disrupt the enemy, buying time for your blobs to close the distance (I believe Orks use a similar tactic, except they use turbo boosting deffkoptas) and they can wreck almost anything with the demo charge and meltas. And if for some insane reason 3 meltas AND a demo charge didn't kill whatever you wanted dead, you've got shotguns to pump into infantry, or meltabombs on all the vets so you can assault a parking lot and do some insane damage. Plus, it'd give you some great mobility, a way to get side shots on armor, and distracts your opponent from the real threat closing the distance (roughly a 100 angry guardsmen and a few Leman Russes)

The amount of Lascannon fire your army could put out would shame a laser show, Ailaros. It seems like you have it so that when someone looks at your army, they wonder "...What do I take out first?!". Even if they focus on your tanks they still have a load of Cannons still ready to blow their tanks. Even if they focus on all the Lascannons, you still have meltas. This would have a large psychological effect on your opponents. I can see it struggling against Horde lists, but your power blobs have proven to be potent against them. I personally wouldn't take this many heavy weapons in my squads if it's a power blob, cause I want it charging, but I can see their value. I like it.

TheCustomLime wrote:The amount of Lascannon fire your army could put out would shame a laser show, Ailaros.

This many lasers would put a Rush concert to shame Don't forget the roughly 90 lasguns he's bringing as well...

TheCustomLime wrote: It seems like you have it so that when someone looks at your army, they wonder "...What do I take out first?!". Even if they focus on your tanks they still have a load of Cannons still ready to blow their tanks. Even if they focus on all the Lascannons, you still have meltas. This would have a large psychological effect on your opponents. I can see it struggling against Horde lists, but your power blobs have proven to be potent against them. I personally wouldn't take this many heavy weapons in my squads if it's a power blob, cause I want it charging, but I can see their value. I like it.

Well, the heavy weapons have an extra bonus when it comes to powerblobs. One thing I always found tough was taking advantage of my superior numbers on the initial charge. Trying to get all the guardsmen within 2" of a model was tough, and sometimes really screwed me. When you've got a couple of 60mm heavy weapon bases though, all of the sudden it becomes much easier to hit that magic "must be within 2 inches of a model in base contact" rule. I put them at the front of my blobs, and it's really helped me guarantee that no matter how I charge an enemy, I'll be able to throw almost my entire blob against them.

And I agree with the heavy weapons scaring the bajeebus out of an opponent. I've seen transport armies freak out when I've brought 6 autocannons and only 5 lascannons in a list. I think they would deffinitely be unnerved when they realize I've got TWELVE lascannons and 6 autocannons. Then add in the fact that most people will mistake this as a gunline army, and may try to get in close. Man, they'll be in for a rude awakening

Ailaros wrote:So, I just thought of another one:

Lemma #3: Vets

Vets - 3x plasma guns, lascannon
Vets - 3x plasma guns, lascannon
Vets - 3x plasma guns, lascannon

It actaully gives me more infantry models than the infantry option. It does cut my lascannons by two, and removes the extra pinch of melta, (not to mention the grinding power of the power blob) but it adds the omgwtfbbq of 9 additional plasma guns.

Forward Sentries. Give them +3 Cover, +2 Go-to-ground. Quite a hard objective holder to shift from range. Though, if you sliced a Vet Squad, you'd probably get enough points to buy the doctrine.

The more I think about it, it seems that the overwhelming accolades for Melta and Plasma Vets are misplaced. The real 'cheap, effective unit' is the Chimera. For 55 Points, you get AV 12, Amphibious, Two Heavy Weapons, and Five Fire Points. Take the Chimera away from the Vets and the Melta/Plasma orgy goes away. Ten bucks says if the Chimera was ten points cheaper for Armor 11, where strength 7 damage is far more reliable, and ONE fire point, the Effective Melta-Vets would have a complete 180 in effectiveness.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Maybe dropping the heavy weapons on the vets and instead making the vets have melta/demolitions/ shotguns, and dropping them in with vendetta's/Valkyries would be a good idea?

Hah, and where would the magic points for these vehicles come from?

If it's a matter of replacing the russes with AV12 vehicles, I'm going to replace them with deathstrikes before I replace them with valks.

TheCustomLime wrote: I personally wouldn't take this many heavy weapons in my squads if it's a power blob, cause I want it charging

Well, it's exactly because of...

TheCustomLime wrote:It seems like you have it so that when someone looks at your army, they wonder "...What do I take out first?!". Even if they focus on your tanks they still have a load of Cannons still ready to blow their tanks. Even if they focus on all the Lascannons, you still have meltas. This would have a large psychological effect on your opponents.

This. For only 120 points I can bring to the table 6 twin-linkable lascannons that are practically impossible to destroy in the first couple of turns (when they'll be needed most), and that I'll still have the option to stop and shoot, should I choose to exercise it.

Yeah, these are also power blobs, so at some point they'll be charging, but having the option of just chilling out turn 1 and blowing stuff up is something I sorely lacked last time I played with power blobs.

TheCustomLime wrote: I can see it struggling against Horde lists, but your power blobs have proven to be potent against them.

Meh. I've got battlecannons and autocannons to start, and when things get close, I've got over 90 lasguns I can FRF at them. Anything that survives that still needs to beat a power blob, which I don't find all that likely.

MrMoustaffa wrote: Then add in the fact that most people will mistake this as a gunline army, and may try to get in close. Man, they'll be in for a rude awakening

I'm actually counting on the fact that I intend to spend turn 1 (and, depending on the situation, turn 2) just sitting there and shooting to make my opponents feel like they've got to take the initiative. Once they get close, they're going to get bum rushed by a bunch of angry melta powerblobs. If they sit back and decide to still let me come to them anyways despite my early game movement choices, then my power blobs are going to run into stuff on turn 4 or 5 after it's already been softened up by all that early game firepower.

KplKeegan wrote:Forward Sentries. Give them +3 Cover, +2 Go-to-ground. Quite a hard objective holder to shift from range.

Meh. If I wanted a durable objective holder, I'd just use a power blob. With the heavy weapons in them now it doesnt' hurt them as much to just park on an objective.

The more I think about it, it seems that the overwhelming accolades for Melta and Plasma Vets are misplaced. The real 'cheap, effective unit' is the Chimera. For 55 Points, you get AV 12, Amphibious, Two Heavy Weapons, and Five Fire Points. Take the Chimera away from the Vets and the Melta/Plasma orgy goes away. Ten bucks says if the Chimera was ten points cheaper for Armor 11, where strength 7 damage is far more reliable, and ONE fire point, the Effective Melta-Vets would have a complete 180 in effectiveness.

Ailaros wrote:In a way, they feel like 10-man flamer+PW stormie squads. Good at what they're good against in theory, but just too expensive, and just not versatile enough, and just not quite good enough at their niche role that they seem just out of reach for what I'd consider fielding.

Flamer Vets. Give two regular Flamers and one a Heavy Flamer, shotguns for the others, and a Power Weapon for the sergeant. Plop 'em in a Chimera. I know you're kind of leery about AV12, but the Flamer Vets cost just about as much as Melta Vets (if you exclude the 10 Points for the Power Weapon)...

In my opinion, starting from the list you origionaly posted at 1500 points, I'd add a 5th infantry squad to one of the platoons for a 30 man blob (so far my favorite size), and 2 Leman Russ punishers in a squadron with heavy bolter sponsons. Forget every negative thing you've ever heard about them, they are both flexible and powerful against everything except AV 12+, but I think you've got enough las for that. . That should run you 480 and if you drop one regular russ then you have 185+10 if you drop the ccs sniper rifles. That gives you enough for plasma sponsons for your 2 single battlecannon russes and at 115 left you have a single vet squad with 3 plasma guns and no heavy weapons to float around your lines and be whereever they need to.


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Ah, of coarse I misread and thought it was up to 2000, so then from your 1500 drop one BC tank and add in the 2 punishers w/HB sponsons. Leaves you with 115. Perfect for that floating vet squad, or a bump of a blob up to 30 men. If you up the blob you've got 25 points to blow on candy.

kungfujew wrote:In my opinion, starting from the list you origionaly posted at 1500 points, I'd add a 5th infantry squad to one of the platoons for a 30 man blob (so far my favorite size), and 2 Leman Russ punishers in a squadron with heavy bolter sponsons. Forget every negative thing you've ever heard about them, they are both flexible and powerful against everything except AV 12+, but I think you've got enough las for that. . That should run you 480 and if you drop one regular russ then you have 185+10 if you drop the ccs sniper rifles. That gives you enough for plasma sponsons for your 2 single battlecannon russes and at 115 left you have a single vet squad with 3 plasma guns and no heavy weapons to float around your lines and be whereever they need to.


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Ah, of coarse I misread and thought it was up to 2000, so then from your 1500 drop one BC tank and add in the 2 punishers w/HB sponsons. Leaves you with 115. Perfect for that floating vet squad, or a bump of a blob up to 30 men. If you up the blob you've got 25 points to blow on candy.

As awesome as seeing some punishers on the field would be, why would he need even more anti infantry firepower? His blobs should be able to handle any infantry that shows up pretty well.

However, you did give me an idea. What about the autocannon russes (exterminators I believe) Then, you're adding in more autocannons AND av14, not to mention the autocannons are twin linked. Then you could either throw a lascannon or heavy bolter sponsons on them, depending on what you need them to do. The big reason I like them though is you already have like 20 lascannons, but relatively few autocannons. By throwing the exterminators in, you'd have tons of lascanons AND autocannons, which would be a mech player's worst nightmare. Not to mention that the one list you posted with the extra russes wouldn't have to change to much, as they're the same cost. I would probably go with 4 regular russes (2 per squadron) and 2 exterminators in a squadron, all with lascannons. that alone gives you 4 battlecanons, 6 lascannons, and 8 twinlinked autocannon shots, all on AV 14 hulls.

I know several of the players in my area would start to worry at the sight of those tanks alone. Then once you add in the blobs and all the lascannons they're packing, and it could really rattle a player before the game even starts.

kungfujew wrote:Forget every negative thing you've ever heard about them, they are both flexible and powerful against everything except AV 12+,

That's the problem, though. I want every unit in my army to take no prisoners, even against the tough stuff. I want to be able to stare down a guard leafblower list, or an all-FNP nurgle or BA list. Punishers don't work that well on hardcore units, and I want everything to be able to at least dent this target type, which punishers only sort of do.

MrMoustaffa wrote:What about the autocannon russes (exterminators I believe) Then, you're adding in more autocannons AND av14, not to mention the autocannons are twin linked. Then you could either throw a lascannon or heavy bolter sponsons on them, depending on what you need them to do. The big reason I like them though is you already have like 20 lascannons, but relatively few autocannons.

I used to run exterminators, actually, and had reasonable success with them. Why switch to LRBT's?

Well, autocannons are really only all that hot against AV10, which is something that I somewhat doubt I'm going to have TOO many problems with, given the quantity of weapons that auto-glance them in my army. Plus, a battlecannon might not be quite as good as an exterminator here, but it certainly makes a mess of AV10 when it hits. Meanwhile, 3 S7 hits that don't ignore armor is about the same as one maybe S8 hit that does, as far as monstrous creatures are concerned.

Then the battlecannon is better against AV12, and against marines, and ignores FNP, and ID's T4, and, most of the time even better against hordes (it's hard not to get at least 3 hits with a battlecannon against a horde army).

If I saw some specific need for autocannon russes, I'd switch back, but as it is, the battlecannon is just better against practically everything.

MrMoustaffa wrote:I know several of the players in my area would start to worry at the sight of those tanks alone. Then once you add in the blobs and all the lascannons they're packing, and it could really rattle a player before the game even starts.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking about with the 6 russ list, even without the exterminators. 3 squads each packing two S8 ordnance and two S9's followed by a horrible barrage of lascannon fire elsewhere is going to make swiss cheese out of mech lists, and all that battlecannon and power blob is going to make it an uphill battle for any kind of infantry army.

So, I was also thinking last night about the vets. What if I used them to start? As in, the 1500 point list looks like...

CCS - lascannon, 2x sniper rifles, master of ordnance

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS - 3x lascannons
HWS - 3x lascannons

Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon
Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon
Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon

I mean, that's 18 lascannons, along with assorted goodies like melta, plasma, and a master of ordnance. Against an AV12 spam army, this would put down 5 vehicles a turn if it remains stationary, and a razorspam army at this points level would most likely be left with virtually no vehicles by the bottom of turn 2. Plus, this starts out with even more infantry than the previous one.

From here, to 1850, I could either add a pair of lascannon russes, or a fourth power blob along with a fourth las-plas vet squad or something.

Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:That looks like the vet's would make for a really nasty objective holder/firebase with the CCS. Other than that though they couldn't do much, but I guess thats what the 3 powerblobs are for . Then you've got lascannons that are more likely to hit, and plasma guns that could help roast deep strikers. I've used a similar setup before and I was very pleased with it.

Well, it's more to bring a diversity of firepower to the list. The list already has a lot of offensive capabilities, what with the initial volleys of long-range weapons and the staying power to get in close and grind people down. The vets would bring a little defensive balance back into the list, I guess. I'm sort of thinking of them as ghetto crisis suits. Where there's a problem, there's a 9x plasma gun solution. Plus, it's not like I can't move these guys forward. Getting a single lascannon shot off for a couple of turns might well not be as useful as running forward and unloading 12 or 24" plasma. Plus, I do like that they score...

I've been mulling over other ideas as well, of course, like the idea to fit some power fists in there, or taking melta+lascannon which would free up 45 points to be used for said fists, or for upgrades for the officer squads or something (or to turn that 1xHWS with lascannons into 2x HWS with autocannons, but I'm not sure I like that), or perhaps take some "storm" vets with flamers, shotguns, a powerfist and carapace armor or something. I'm fiddling around with a bunch of things in my mind, but I just don't have the points to do it with any degree of obviousness. I'll just have to think about it more.

Smitty0305 wrote:I think there all bad

... for very articulate reasons, I'm sure...

The army has no long range mobility, no close combat, not alot of accurate shooting, and almost no ability to deal with massed armor.

Blob squads are cool if you play some1 whos bad, but when you player people who know how to use their Templates/large blasts/or higher Initiative I dont see how they pose any threat.

6 Lemons are cool as well, but if you look at EVERY popular meta list, every list has the ability to deal with armor 14.

I just dont see how the list has any synergy or anything better than current Meta IG lists or any other army.

Ailaros wrote:
Exterminators vs. LRBT's

My big reason I would be taking them would be for things like skimmers, but even then, you've got so many lascannons, at least one of them has to get through, and when it does get through the cover save, it's pretty much guaranteed to do damage (as long as you don't get screwed on the damage chart) so I can see why you would stick with vanilla russes. The only other thing is that it would help get shots on something like a very spread out infantry squad, but again, there are other things in the list that could probably handle this as well. Probably down to personal taste more than anything, but after what you've said you need, yeah, I'd probably go with regular russes too.

Ailaros wrote:
So, I was also thinking last night about the vets. What if I used them to start? As in, the 1500 point list looks like...

CCS - lascannon, 2x sniper rifles, master of ordnance

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon

PIS - lascannon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar with power weapon
PCS - lascannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS - 3x lascannons
HWS - 3x lascannons

Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon
Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon
Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon

I mean, that's 18 lascannons, along with assorted goodies like melta, plasma, and a master of ordnance. Against an AV12 spam army, this would put down 5 vehicles a turn if it remains stationary, and a razorspam army at this points level would most likely be left with virtually no vehicles by the bottom of turn 2. Plus, this starts out with even more infantry than the previous one.

From here, to 1850, I could either add a pair of lascannon russes, or a fourth power blob along with a fourth las-plas vet squad or something.

Yeah this would be a scary list too. I kind of like the original more (mainly because I have a soft spot for LRBT's) but this could be just as deadly as the Leman russes. The only thing you're losing out on is the battlecannons and AV14, but when your entire army has no AV whatsoever, I've noticed that tends to work for me just as well as if I had Leman Russes in the first place. Either way, the enemy is wasting most of their antitank firepower on stuff it can't hurt (an AV14 tank) or something that is rediculous overkill (my opponents HATE having to use lascannons on my T3, 5pt guardsmen ) so it ends up being a benefit either way.

Only thing I would do when it comes to this is maybe throwing in a standard to help keep the vets and HWS's around, or biting the bullet and taking a lord commissar. Other than that, it seems like it could work very well.

Smitty0305 wrote:
The army has no long range mobility, no close combat, not alot of accurate shooting, and almost no ability to deal with massed armor.

6 Lemons are cool as well, but if you look at EVERY popular meta list, every list has the ability to deal with armor 14.

I just dont see how the list has any synergy or anything better than current Meta IG lists or any other army.

I'm sorry, but did you miss the part where he has almost 20 lascannons in his 1500pt list alone? Not to mention the meltas his blobs are packing as well. How on earth is that not capable of dealing with mass armor? If that can't kill armor, I'd hate to see what I need to bring, because he's basically filled every slot in the army with antitank weapons.

As for the Leman Russ thing. Yes, most people have ways of killing AV 14, you know what it is? Melta. Usually delivered by transports or deepstriked. If a transport managed to get through that killing ground of lascannons and unload their payload into a Leman Russ within 6", either A) Ailaros missed with almost 40 lascannon shots (because it would take about two turns to get it where it needs) B) Ailaros failed to screen his tanks (which you would literally have to try to fail on purpose with over a hundred infantry models on the board). or C) AIlaros had a stroke and passed out, and his opponent kept playing.

Now deepstrike can be a bigger issue, but due to smart playing you can keep that down as well. With all the infantry he's got on the board, all he has to do is spread them around the Leman Russes, and force the opponent to either try to land in a small hole and risk mishap, or deepstrike his men in front of the main army in open ground, both of which are bad choices. Not to mention that even if they did manage to pick off a tank, he's still got several more that can keep raining hurt on the enemy.

Smitty0305 wrote:The army has no long range mobility

What do you mean by this? Certainly, it has long-range firepower, and infantry are capable of running just as fast as any other guard vehicle except the valkyrie. I don't see why you'd need those to win, though.

Smitty0305 wrote:no close combat,

Clearly you haven't seen a competent power blob player before.

Smitty0305 wrote:not alot of accurate shooting,

Which is why I brought so much shooting. Plus, there isn't very much in the guard codex that isn't BS3. This comment makes me question if you understand how guard works.

Smitty0305 wrote:and almost no ability to deal with massed armor.

Yeah, I think I'm going to have to give a blank stare at this as well. If a 1500 point list with 18 lascannons, 6 meltaguns, 9 plasma guns, a master of ordnance and over 100 frag grenades doesn't count as "enough" anti-armor, I'd like to see what does.

Smitty0305 wrote:Blob squads are cool if you play some1 whos bad, but when you player people who know how to use their Templates/large blasts/or higher Initiative I dont see how they pose any threat.

Yeah, you haven't seen competent blobwork before. Unlike worse players, I actually spread my troops out and keep 50% in cover. I rarely take anything close to serious damage from blast and template weapons. Likewise, practically everything has higher initiative than guardsmen, but that's fine, because power blobs don't work like khorne berzerkers or death company. With power blobs, the point is to outlast them, not to sucker-punch them before they get a swing in.

Smitty0305 wrote:6 Lemons are cool as well, but if you look at EVERY popular meta list, every list has the ability to deal with armor 14.

Actually, basically every popular meta list relies on missile launchers and/or autocannons for their long-range anti-tank capabilities, both of which are laughed off by AV14. Likewise, melta only works against AV14 if you're within 6", and I fail to see how my opponent is going to regularly accomplish this feat with 100 infantry models in the way.

Plus, the 6 russ list has SIX pieces of AV14. I'd like to see an army that would have an easy time with that, especially with all of said infantry in the way.

Smitty0305 wrote:I just dont see how the list has any synergy or anything better than current Meta IG lists or any other army.

What it has better than basically any other army is the number of guns it puts out at this points level. I'd really like to see a non-guard 1500 point list with more firepower than this. Secondly, with over 100 models, most of them stubborn, and all of them being able to relatively easily take cover saves, you need to put a LOT of attacks down to even make a dent in it - something which is pretty challenging when you're being ripped apart by lascannons and plasma and/or battlecannons. It's more killy and more durable than most things out there, and it also has synergy, what with causing target prioritization amongst MSU squads and also having things like orders, along with overlapping firepower (my opponents are getting screwed no matter where they are or how they move).

You can underestimate this list all you want, but it's still underestimating it.

MrMoustaffa wrote:My big reason I would be taking them would be for things like skimmers

Granted, they'd be better against wave serpents, but I think I'll hold off on re-including them until I run across too much of that in the local meta. As you note, they cost the same, so it would be an easy swap.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Only thing I would do when it comes to this is maybe throwing in a standard to help keep the vets and HWS's around

Hmm, especially with all the vets. I don't consider it a necessary upgrade here, but this kind of a list is where this upgrade is most effective. The problem is the points. Things are so tight here that I don't know of an easy way to wiggle 15 points out of it to spend on a standard.

Just wading into this one again because i like any list that has platoon squads. I've played a list like this for years in the old codex i had 12 lascannons in my 1500 came second in most of the tournies i played and that was only because i kept loosing to CSM Obliliterator cheese. This was before blobs, but also before stupid kill point shis nass. Now i play a 12 "twin linked lascannon" list and i have great fun with it.

I still maintain that gearing up for cc is not ideal for guard, i know we can win, but i think we got almost as much chance of mass forced saves killing the opponent than pw, the exception would be a power fist for munching on MC's, should they mysteriously wade through the lascannons. But thats fine if ye wanna field em field em, i dont know what else you would do with the points anyway.

With regards to what one poster said about mobility, i played an eldar player today, and killed him down too a 2 man seer council in 3 turns which i then couldnt see with the gunline, and it spent two turns tossing psychic pie plates on me getting a draw on what would have been a clear win for me if i could have just got in range. I suppose you can use the LRBT's but i dunno *shrug*

On the same sense if you face an opponent with a basilisk that can hide behind a building, i would think that would hurt alot until you came around too shoot it with whatever

Its just a thought i'm forever tweaking mine lol