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Stifflersthedog wrote: i think we got almost as much chance of mass forced saves killing the opponent than pw,

Well... why not do both? I've got power blobs AND FRF+melta+lascannon in a single infantry unit. In my case, I'm taking a 1500 point list that has no close combat capabilities and splitting off 90 of said points to make them mostly hold their own in close combat. Not too shabby of an insurance policy at the least, and it's definitely something that gives me more options.

Stifflersthedog wrote:On the same sense if you face an opponent with a basilisk that can hide behind a building, i would think that would hurt alot until you came around too shoot it with whatever

Actually, I'm much more afraid of deathstrikes, and to a lesser extent manticores. Outside of these two units, any casualties they cause before I get over there to much them will probably be acceptable. The addition of marbo to that one list is something that ameliorates this, but I'm not sure how much its really necessary. I used to use a basilisk in practically every game, but after roughly 50 games in a row, I dropped it, as it really wasn't doing the kind of damage I would have hoped. Especially against the vet all-infantry list, I don't think I'd be too bothered by losing a couple of guarsmen a turn to one.

Ailaros wrote:Well, autocannons are really only all that hot against AV10, which is something that I somewhat doubt I'm going to have TOO many problems with, given the quantity of weapons that auto-glance them in my army. Plus, a battlecannon might not be quite as good as an exterminator here, but it certainly makes a mess of AV10 when it hits.

Not really. Again the only benefit a Battle Cannon really has over Twin-Linked Autocannons against armor is AV13 and maybe AV12. Even then, it's still only one hit IF it hits the vehicle, where as the Exterminator can double your rolls on the penetration charts attacking armor 10-12. And the Exterminator can double as anti-infantry with Heavy Bolter Sponsons. Battle Cannons are sub-optimal at attacking armor compared to other Russ Varients.

KplKeegan wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Well, autocannons are really only all that hot against AV10, which is something that I somewhat doubt I'm going to have TOO many problems with, given the quantity of weapons that auto-glance them in my army. Plus, a battlecannon might not be quite as good as an exterminator here, but it certainly makes a mess of AV10 when it hits.

Not really. Again the only benefit a Battle Cannon really has over Twin-Linked Autocannons against armor is AV13 and maybe AV12. Even then, it's still only one hit IF it hits the vehicle, where as the Exterminator can double your rolls on the penetration charts attacking armor 10-12. And the Exterminator can double as anti-infantry with Heavy Bolter Sponsons. Battle Cannons are sub-optimal at attacking armor compared to other Russ Varients.

my point wasn't that it's better against AV10, my point is that it's good enough against AV10, while also being able to handle a lot of other stuff better.

A lascannon LRBT isn't bad against AV10, though. If you want to say that the battlecannon hits half the time, then you've got two shots, one of which auto-glances (so, probably pens), and the other only does no damage if you roll snakeyes (so, probably pens). Plus, if we're talking about an open-topped AV10 vehicle, then you still have a 1 in 3 chance of glancing, even if only the slightest part of the template is even touching the vehicle, and given open topped, you can still wreck the vehicle (or do some other appropriate damage). Against AV12, autocannons struggle for 6's to penetrate. You do get three hits of them, but that's still only a half chance, while the russ still has the scatter glance and has a pretty decent chance to pen. Even if it's roughly a wash, it's still better because of all the other things a battlecannon can do that an exterminator can't (like ignore armor saves, splat clustered troops, ID T4, deny FNP, do anything to AV13, etc.)

Its still better because of all the other things a battlecannon can do that an exterminator can't (like ignore armor saves, splat clustered troops, ID T4, deny FNP, do anything to AV13, etc.)

Because that's the Battle Cannons general purpose, Ordnance. But it can't kill armor as effectively as the Exterminator or pen armor like the Vanquisher. Anything that it could possibly pen has something better in its place in the Russ Varients.

And besides, you're already fielding a ton of anti-tank (which also performs better than the Battle Cannon), at essentially the same range. Put some Plasma Cannon Sponsons on them for added blast templates.

Well, you do get 2 exterminators in the squadron, so that's 6 autocannon hits on something. I would use them as a "That transport must die this turn" unit. They're a guaranteed kill on a transport of almost any kind, and in my area, thats important. I am literally the only player who runs anything other than max transports, so 9 times out of 10, there will be one or two transports that absolutely have to die before they get to me for whatever reason.

Paying 330pts for a transport death button might seem crazy, but when I know that odds are its carrying something that will completely wreck my army, it's worth it. Yeah, it's only killing a 40-60 pt unit per turn, but it's also stranding a high value target in the open so my battle cannons can kill it, and my lascannons can worry about killing anything else. Add in the fact that it also can thin infantry and other light armor, and I'm really stuck between 2 exterminators and 2 more LRBT's.

Although there is one more benefit to the Exterminators, that while not huge, fits in with the spirit of this list. It's throwing in 8 more autocannon shots down range for the pair on AV 14. While most IG players know that Autocannons aren't the scariest thing in the army, other armies (transport heavy ones especially) seem to fear them. When they see that those two alone can spit out 8 twinlinked autocannon and 2 regular lascannon shots, it just drives home the thought of "holy crap, how am I going to make it through all this shooting?" While this wouldn't be quite as effective against a veteran player who's played for several years, against the average opponent, that little bit extra of psychological warfare could come in handy.

Big A, you are entitled to your opinions, but here I must disagree. Punishers are great at killing tough stuff. Just not av 12+. I'll drive them right up to terminators, thunderwolves and any kind of marine in cover. You have tons of anti tank, and this tank offers flexibility and power. Look at it like the Ogryn of Tanks. Positional control and volume, especially with two. Do yourself a favour and try them out a few times. You'll be plesantly surprised.

KplKeegan wrote:Put some Plasma Cannon Sponsons on them for added blast templates.

Meh, I've been able to neutralize small blast templates with proper spacing enough not to be impressed by them.

KplKeegan wrote:

Its still better because of all the other things a battlecannon can do that an exterminator can't (like ignore armor saves, splat clustered troops, ID T4, deny FNP, do anything to AV13, etc.)

Because that's the Battle Cannons general purpose, Ordnance. But it can't kill armor as effectively as the Exterminator or pen armor like the Vanquisher. Anything that it could possibly pen has something better in its place in the Russ Varients.

So, I actually used to run exterminators and vanquishers, and my experience with them has borne out their crappy statistics, which is why I'm not all that seriously considering them now. The problem is that what tragically little they gain in their prime target, they lose in a lot of other stuff. For every game I played against DE, where they were really good, I'd also play one against an AV12 transport army, and another against FNP blood angels, and another against wraith or jetbike eldar, and another against a loganwing, etc. For being slightly better in that one game, they wound up being useless in a big majority of my games. I'd rather take something that's slightly worse against its intended target but would actually be useful in every game they're fielded in.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Well, you do get 2 exterminators in the squadron, so that's 6 autocannon hits on something. I would use them as a "That transport must die this turn" unit. They're a guaranteed kill on a transport of almost any kind, and in my area, thats important. I am literally the only player who runs anything other than max transports, so 9 times out of 10, there will be one or two transports that absolutely have to die before they get to me for whatever reason.

But it's not true, though. 6 exterminator cannon hits wreck a piece of AV12 on a .33. That's not "must die" that's "maybe but probably not it dies". If you're having better results, then it's because you're just really lucky with autocannons (which I, documentedly, am not).

Once again, compare this to the battlecannon. A exterminator gets three hits, .5 pens, for .166 wrecks. The battlecannon hits on a .61 for .34 pens for .12 wrecks. The exterminator does the job 1/6 of the time, rather than 1/8 of the time, which doesn't strike me as THAT big of a boost.

MrMoustaffa wrote:While most IG players know that Autocannons aren't the scariest thing in the army, other armies (transport heavy ones especially) seem to fear them. When they see that those two alone can spit out 8 twinlinked autocannon and 2 regular lascannon shots, it just drives home the thought of "holy crap, how am I going to make it through all this shooting?" While this wouldn't be quite as effective against a veteran player who's played for several years, against the average opponent, that little bit extra of psychological warfare could come in handy.

Yeah, unfortunately, my FLGS players are smarter than this.

kungfujew wrote:Look at it like the Ogryn of Tanks.

That's a good analogy, actually, but I'm not sure if I'm really convinced.

I mean, against a wraithlord, a single round of shooting puts down less than 1 wound, and against a tervigon puts down 1 or maybe 2. Against termies and FNP marines, it's only likewise rocking one or two a turn. Meanwhile, against AV12+ it does literally nothing. It's hard to see how its killing its points worth here, which is bad, given that that's basically the only point of HS slots.

Against horde armies, perhaps, but given that it only really does one thing well, it seems to have the same problem that the vanquisher (and to a lesser extent exterminator) have - whatever it gains in being specialized it loses by being useless most of the time.

Come for infantry lists, stay for debate over the merits of Leman russ variants haha.

Ok, I was never good at mathammer, so that would make sense. I just assumed more shots meant more dead things However, if the difference is that small, not really a point to bringing them unless you know for sure you'll be up against skimmers.

Anything else doesn't really fit the list. Vanquishers aren't necessary with all the lascannons, demolishers with their short range don't mesh too well with everything else, and other variants dont really have any else to bring to the table. So yeah, you're probably right, regular russes are your best bet.

Of course, if you keep the vets list, all of this is moot, as there aren't any tanks in the vets list to begin with. Honestly, I can't decide which I would prefer more, tanks or vets. I'd probably end up just tanking the tanks so I could play the army quicker at a tournament. Other than that, they've both got their strengths and weaknesses.

What it gives you is garunteed dice rolling. As a foot loving guard player, I always look for ways to get my opponents rolling dice. I don't expect to kill a lot, just whittle things down through attrition. Although, since my enemies tend to be more elite forces, any time they roll the dice there are more ways that I can get above average rolls and against them, one extra guy dead instead of just one is great. With a tank like the punisher you never worry about cover or armour, you just fire. If there are devastators on 2 levels of a building, open fire. If you use a battle cannon and it veers off even slightly, you might only get one or two hits. If you fire a punisher you get 23 shots if it moved. Let's say 9 hit. Let's say 6 wound. In your experience are you happier getting 6 shots at 1-2 or 2 shots at 1-3. Let's say you have two of them. Over four turns let's say they get one one lucky round. 46 shots, 30 hit, 24 wound. Okay tactical marines in cover on an important objective... Roll some armour saves. The more dice you roll the greater the chances of seeing something crazy and the roll a lot of dice. Some games they do nothing but attract fire. Some games they gun down everything in their path. Never have they been ignored. They're the kind of unit that unless you use them in a few games, you just don't get how clutch they are.

Thinking that just because you roll more dice you will necessarily be more effective is superstitious. I'd rather go with what is more effective, regardless of how many dice are rolled.

So, I'm starting to get a slightly better feel for what I'm going to do here, I think.

Model-wise, I'm going to be able to field the officer squads and up to four melta-las ultrablobs with two HWSs in tow (with the option of autocannon, lascannon, and missile launchers).

The first question seems to be "am I going to use 4 power blobs?" The more I've been thinking about this, the less I'm actually certain that the answer is "yes". I've run 4 20-man power blobs on multiple occasions, but never in a list that had this much up-front killing power before. I'm actually starting to think that a 4th 20-man power blob may be, and I know this is a shocker... unnecessary.

The real thing going for it is that I already have the models, but I'm not actively playing at the moment, so taking a little more time to get things properly fielded.

If this means no 4th blob, then this means one of two things. On the one hand, it's the 6 russes list. Perhaps 6x LRBTs, perhaps 4x LRBTs, with two exterminators. The second option is one that begins with the veterans. Either it's a 3x vets and 3x LRBT's (which somehow doesn't quite sit right), or it's 3x vets and... and what? I could add a power blob, but, as mentioned, I don't know if it's necessary. I could add back in my 6x ogryn with punchy lord commissar, but that somehow seems out of place in this list.

What else would I really do with the extra 350 points starting from lemma #3?

But back to the infantry, I just finished a game 4 and 1/2 hours ago against some dark eldar and it was a massacre. They ended turn 6 with an empty venom, a missileless jet and a talos locked in combat for the next 10 rounds with the surviving 1/2 of a 30 man power blob sitting on the only contested objective and the imperials won 3 objectives to none. At 1850 points, the stars of that game were a walking meatshield of 20 conscripts (4 survived holding an objective and gunning down the last 3 wyches at point blank), as well as 2 ten man "power squads". With them was a commissar lord with a plasma pistol, carapace armour, a power sword and a camo cloack. He was able to bounce around and be where he was needed most, while the lot of 41 models basically ran half the table occupying attention until it could be killed by alraheem or bigger guns. As a huge fan of power blobs, I've started experimenting around with them and I'm really starting to like 2 ten man squads with commassars and powerweapons+flamers in concert with larger blobs. Have you tried smaller infantry squads in support rolls to your blobs? I'm finding that at only 45 points more than a 20 man blob, the added ability to be in two places at once, or the same place twice at the same time even adds a lot to my tactical flexibility. If you have points to spare perhaps try varying the blob size. One 30 man, two 20's and two to three 10's. Picture a squad of x charges your lead 20 man blob. If they're heavy hitters and you haven't gotten a chance to gun them up yet they could make short work of the blob. So, what happens it they're charging only "half the blob". The commissar dies and the surviving few die and now you have a fresh 10 man crew ready to charge in. But first comers the flamer. And the other shots from the rest of the army. Then you can charge in.

I'm finding that I'd gottn bored with my footguard and went to a mixed force. Then I was goaded into "infing" it up, and I put the lessons learned with a different type of guard into my footguard and it's a whole new ballgame! Aw, but I do love my tanks (but that's my dilema).

The question in all that is, do you try mixing up the sizes of your units Al, or just their weapons. 'Cause different sizes of the same blob, from 10 all the way to 30 or more, offer huge amounts of flexibiliityon the field.

Maybe get 3 squads of stormtroopers and an astropath? Then, nothing can hide from this list. Any sane opponent is going to try to hide from that many lascannons. What will he do when his options are

A) go out and, and get annihilated by lascannons, or...
B) try and hide behind cover, where he's a sitting duck for some melta stormies to drop in and ruin his parking lot's day.

Plus, you could always use them for things other than armor. Disrupting back field units to buy your infantry time to run upfield, or dropping them near an objective that you need to contest.

That, or you can just add more lascannons. 350 pts is enough to get you 3 more lascannon HWS's and something like a standard or Officer of the fleet. Officer of the fleet would just make this list mean though. With all the HWS, your opponent will want to deepstrike or outflank and kill them. Screwing his reserve rolls would be icing on the cake. Although at this point, that many lascannons may well be overkill...

Lord commissar w/camo, carapace, PW, PP is 110 and he can float around.

10 guardsmen with flamer, sgt w/pw, commissar w/pw is 110. x2

That's 330. Give both inf squads krak grenades. For 350 or try to find room for one or two priests

kungfujew wrote:Lord commissar w/camo, carapace, PW, PP is 110 and he can float around.

10 guardsmen with flamer, sgt w/pw, commissar w/pw is 110. x2

That's 330. Give both inf squads krak grenades. For 350 or try to find room for one or two priests

I think if I were going to do a more infantry option it would be a melta power blob (185) with a 3x melta al'rahem (130) with some points left over for dalliance

MrMoustaffa wrote:That, or you can just add more lascannons. 350 pts is enough to get you 3 more lascannon HWS's

Hah, dont' tempt me. My deployment zone is already crowded enough. Plus, 9 more lascannon teams would cost me a fortune.

... of course, I'd be looking at a 27-lascannon list. At that level of saturation, it's practically a anti-horde weapon.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Maybe get 3 squads of stormtroopers and an astropath? Then, nothing can hide from this list. Any sane opponent is going to try to hide from that many lascannons. What will he do when his options are

So, the flexibility would be nice, I suppose, but I'm kind of hit or miss with stormies. I like them on so many theoretical levels, but in the end, it winds up with me paying over 100 points just to get to shoot a pair of special weapons once. I could do two larger squads (like 10x with 2x melta apiece), but that just doesn't quite seem good enough.

So, thinking it over again, it seems like the trilemma boils down to:

1.) officers + 3x power blobs + 2x lascannon HWSs + 3x las-plas vets + ???
2.) officers + 3x power blobs + 2x lascannon HWSs + 3x russes + 2x las-plas vets
3.) officers + 3x power blobs + 2x autocannon HWSs + 6x russes

... hah, or...

4.) officers + 3x power blobs + 2x lascannon HWSs + 2x las-plas vets + 6x hydras, all with HK missiles (or 6 hydras and marbo)

Option 2 would give you a little more breathing room than parking six Hydras in the midst of your rabble. And the Leman Russes give you alot of anti-heavy infantry at range. That would be a good core of your foot army while you could dabble in other things.

As for the whole 350 Points?

Are your blobs moving? If not, I'd recommend some artillery. Squadron two Leman Russes and plunk down two Griffons and a Colossus. 290 Points and enough surface area to cover an entire horde unit and maybe spurn the 60 points on Marbo.

If they are moving, some fast attack wouldn't hurt. Scout Setinels w/ Multi Lasers are only 105 Points, maybe a armored setinel with a Plasma Cannon, or maybe a pair of Hell Hounds.

I agree with KplKeegan some coversave ignoring artillery or Fast Attack flame would decrease your armies (albeit small) weaknesses.


*NOOB ALERT*
In an example by Stiffler, an eldar player lost most of their army to his gunline, but because the Eldar was able to get and stay out of Range/LoS the game was a draw. So what about including a Deathstrike or two in your gunline? They'll be protected and will probably fire when you need it most, turn 3-4. They're good for completely removing the enemy from late game objectives. Not to mention the psycological impact they have as the enemy now HAS to decide whether to tangle with your LCs and CC blobs or go another route.
One thing I like about Deathstrikes is that they put all of onus on your opponent while you can sit back and defend with your aces comfortably in the 'hole' so to speak.

the only problem with deathstrikes is that they are very unreliable. I've used them before and had them do everything from wipe 3 landraiders in one shot, to firing them into a parking lot of DE skimmers, only to wreck 2 (i hate flickerfields so much) However, they do have the advantage of forcing your opponent to spread out, which would let you pick them off in chunks as opposed to having to fight the whole army at once.

However, if this was what i was going for (something indirect fire to force people out of hiding) I would probably go with manticores instead, as they can fire reliably for the first 4 turns, and have a barrage fire mode that could land up to 3 blasts, all S 10. That way, instead of hoping your uber missle goes off the turn you need it, you have an almost uber missle that can fire the first 4 turns when you want it to..

I would actually consider deathstrikes, as they certainly fit the bill of flipping my opponent's most fancy units (outside of, like THSS termies) the proverbial bird. Plus, they would actually syzergize fairly well, as there's no way in hell my opponent is going to shoot at my officers or HWSs or veterans so long as they are under the threat of a deathstrike attack.

Of course, it's only 3 AV12 vehicles, and I would like for them to theoretically do something. With three of them that makes the chances really not TOO shabby, but I fear that a single solid alpha strike by my opponent could just wipe them out.

Ye the eldar squad i'm talking about is the one you have to roll to see if you can see them. So while i field two hearty bassies i couldnt hit it. And he then had this psychic power that could just pie plate on my squads even ones it couldnt see, and its had some wacky inv saves too, managed to scatter a pie plate on it one turn. I'm not sure if he was cheating? it did seem a little far fetched. But a squad like that! and i imagine any army that has a squad you have too roll too see that has decent ranged weapon, requires your army to be able to get closer to it. Indirect ordanance wont solve that.

Stifflersthedog wrote:But a squad like that! and i imagine any army that has a squad you have too roll too see that has decent ranged weapon, requires your army to be able to get closer to it. Indirect ordanance wont solve that.

No, but power blobs will. Harlequins have a terrible armor save, and are still just expensive T3 models. FRFing will make them sad, so will lots of bayonets. They may be good at tearing up tougher units, but against guard, they're not really any better than expensive banshees that are harder to hit with heavy weapons. A problem for marine players, perhaps, but I'm not too concerned with properly CC-equipped guard.

@Ailaros That's the first thing I thought of as a counter to that type of squad after reading Stifflers post. You have them in spades.

What makes me think this will be a good choice for your army is that you already have a wall of guardsmen and LRBTs that get to put out lots of high Str shots. What you don't get to use often are the meltas and maybe even the power weapons. The Deathstrikes give your opponent an obligation to get within Melta and PW range whether it's by DS, FA our Outflanking. All because of the 3 WIN buttons hidden behind the line which have a 16% chance to fire any turn no matter the modifiers. Which basically means the enemy can glance the hell out of them and do nothing. Also they can be very far away with their 960 range when flanked by 3 LRBTs

KplKeegan wrote:Option 2 would give you a little more breathing room than parking six Hydras in the midst of your rabble.

I missed this before. Why do you think this?

So, for a 3x russ list, I suppose my main concern is that, while 3x russes will probably cut it at 1500, I'm sort of concerned that they won't at 1850. At this points level, I'm kind of sort of thinking that I should go with the option that has 6 of them, or the option that has 0 of them. Am I overplaying the threat?

Not at all, numbers are what make russes scary, just like how guardsmen work. I only have 2 russes at the moment, and they tend to get slagged by opponents by turn 2 or 3 every time. Every game, they tell me the same thing "man, I'm glad you didn't have more of those, or I would've been screwed." The veteran Ig player at our store practically builds his 1850 list around 4 leman russes and 2 demolishers, and it is very powerful. Granted, he uses vendettas, a meatshield platoon to protect his tanks, and vets with chimeras/ riding in the vendettas, but everyone still fears the tanks the most.

However, if you end up ditching the tanks, I'd either go 3 deathstrikes, or no armor whatsoever. They're the only other two options that compliment your list as it sits right now. You either have a wall of AV 14 that your oponent will have to run up and kill, 3 ballistic missles that your opponent will have to focus down (and hopefully ignore the lascannons), or just more guardsmen, and give his anti armor the finger. All 3 I would think would be worth trying.

Although if i had to pick one, do the 3 deathstrikes one first, if only because 18 lascannons and 3 deathstrikes (with camo nets for the 3+ save of course ) would be the funniest battlereport ever. Then i'd try the 6 russ list, as that'll probably be the most reliable, and then the all infantry list last, as that would be the most finicky/ time intensive for a tournament/regular game.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing I just thought of, if you go the deathstrike route, bring some vendettas or devil dogs/something else scary with AV12 as well. Whatever you choose, make sure it's fast enough to hit enemy lines the first turn, and scary enough to make it a must kill target. If it has an AV 12 arc, your opponent will have to choose, either trying to kill the AV 12 deathstrikes with the 3+ cover saves chillin in the back field, or kill the very angry vendettas/hellhounds/devildogs,etc that are in his midst killing everything turn one. That should buy the deathstrikes the time they need to fire and do some damage.

Ailaros wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:Option 2 would give you a little more breathing room than parking six Hydras in the midst of your rabble.

I missed this before. Why do you think this?

Well, around where I game we play on 4x4 tables and on one 4x6 table (4' is the deployment table edges), which really doesn't leave alot of room for a heavy foot list. Even moreso when deploying in Table Quarters. And depending on how my blobs are arranged, the vehicles can get boxed in accidently or they can't manuver into the right position because there's infantry clogging up the works.

And I'm not estatic about Hydras either, they have to stay still in order to use both Hydra Barrels, which doesn't sit well with me, since they're armor 12 in front. An Exterminator has the power of two Hydra's and had the benefit of armor 14 and being able to move at combat speed and be able to fire its turret and another weapon.

So, for a 3x russ list, I suppose my main concern is that, while 3x russes will probably cut it at 1500, I'm sort of concerned that they won't at 1850. At this points level, I'm kind of sort of thinking that I should go with the option that has 6 of them, or the option that has 0 of them. Am I overplaying the threat?

Are you afraid of them not performing at 1850 like they would at 1500? You're probably right. But fielding six Battle Cannons is not as 'performing' as you might think. If you're thinking about fielding 6 Russes I'd make two Exterminators with a Hull Lascannon for that added bite of Hyrdras without the AV12/10/10 Kill Point bundles.

KplKeegan wrote:An Exterminator has the power of two Hydra's

Actually, the exterminator has the power of one hydra. You lose half the killing power in order to take a lascannon and get AV14.

With the 9 hydras, I wouldn't bother moving them ever. Just sit there and unleash 18 autocannon hits.

Alright, back to the dilemma:

1.) officers (with standard) + 3x power blobs + 2x lascannon HWSs + 4x las-plas vets + yarrick

2.) officers + 3x power blobs + 6x russes (of some sort)

option one is finally something that reaches the insanity of the tank one. Everything in the army has ld9 or 10, stubborn, and a source of rerolls for morale checks, all on 133 friggin infantry models. Close combat sees 133 stubborn rerollable dudes of endless tarpitting along with the grinding power of the power blobs plus the "just one more turn" yarrick. Shooting sees 19 lascannons, 6 meltaguns, 12 BS4 plasma guns and 48 FRFable lasguns, all of which are likely to pass orders when they're used on them. Of course, I could also swap out a vet squad for 2 more 3x autocannon HWSs instead...

Option 2 is option 2. Opponent, meet practically invincible units. Good luck.

Ailaros wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:An Exterminator has the power of two Hydra's

Actually, the exterminator has the power of one hydra. You lose half the killing power in order to take a lascannon and get AV14.

Ah. I've gotten so used to using the Exterminators.


Alright, back to the dilemma:

1.) officers (with standard) + 3x power blobs + 2x lascannon HWSs + 4x las-plas vets + yarrick

option one is finally something that reaches the insanity of the tank one. Everything in the army has ld9 or 10, stubborn, and a source of rerolls for morale checks, all on 133 friggin infantry models. Close combat sees 133 stubborn rerollable dudes of endless tarpitting along with the grinding power of the power blobs plus the "just one more turn" yarrick. Shooting sees 19 lascannons, 6 meltaguns, 12 BS4 plasma guns and 48 FRFable lasguns, all of which are likely to pass orders when they're used on them. Of course, I could also swap out a vet squad for 2 more 3x autocannon HWSs instead...

Six Melta guns seem kind of comical compared to 19 Las Cannons and 12 Plasma Guns. Now this may sound extremely contradictory, but, with the weight of static guns you might want to set aside something for Marbo, and axing the Melta Guns would definately shore up enough points for it. All it takes is one Thunder Fire Cannon or Biovore Brood to lay waste to an entire blob in two-three turns. That way you can still opt to take the HWS Autocannons or, Mortars, for softening up hordes.

And remember Yarrick does not confer his abilities when he gets knocked down and he is an Independant Character.

2.) officers + 3x power blobs + 2x autocannon HWSs + 6x russes (of some sort)

Option 2 is option 2. Opponent, meet practically invincible units. Good luck.

KplKeegan wrote:Six Melta guns seem kind of comical compared to 19 Las Cannons and 12 Plasma Guns. Now this may sound extremely contradictory, but, with the weight of static guns you might want to set aside something for Marbo, and axing the Melta Guns would definately shore up enough points for it. All it takes is one Thunder Fire Cannon or Biovore Brood to lay waste to an entire blob in two-three turns. That way you can still opt to take the HWS Autocannons or, Mortars, for softening up hordes.

Well, I think for now I've got to keep the melta. It may not seem like a lot, but 2x BiD melta at close range is a serious enough of a threat to act as a deterrent. I could see perhaps breaking up the 4th lasplas veterans and replace it with marbo and... something that costs roughly 70 points...

KplKeegan wrote:And remember Yarrick does not confer his abilities when he gets knocked down and he is an Independant Character.

Sure, but it's more in line of the strategy with this list as a whole. Turns 1 and 2, they shoot - yarrick's not going to get killed before then. Turns 3-7 they assault - yarrick's going to get out of range, but by that point the HWSs won't be as relatively useful.

KplKeegan wrote:Yup. Four Battle Cannons could easily shoulder hordes and maxed out elite squads (Like Nobs or FNP Marines, or even Nob Bikers). The Exterminators could help thin out transports or tack hits onto Monsterous Critters with relative ease.

Hmm, so I guess we're coming to a question of play style. List one certainly has much more firepower (as in, like, double), but that loses killing power in a fluid fashion, collapsing as the various small units get picked off. List two has like half the firepower, but its firepower declines in chunks. There's no easy way with the russ list to just shut down a couple of lascannons, as there are no weak units in the army. I suppose this would make it more luck based - either the opponent rolls well and shuts down my firepower quickly, or my opponent rolls poorly, and doesn't even scratch it as aversed to a list where my opponent will always slowly grind it down...

Ailaros wrote:Well, I think for now I've got to keep the melta. It may not seem like a lot, but 2x BiD melta at close range is a serious enough of a threat to act as a deterrent. I could see perhaps breaking up the 4th lasplas veterans and replace it with marbo and... something that costs roughly 70 points...

Primaris Psyker with his Nightshroud in a blob eh? Make vehicles roll for LD to shoot at 'em (LD 10 yes, but hilarious when it does happen). Lightning Arc is just a boon.

Hmm, so I guess we're coming to a question of play style. List one certainly has much more firepower (as in, like, double), but that loses killing power in a fluid fashion, collapsing as the various small units get picked off. List two has like half the firepower, but its firepower declines in chunks. There's no easy way with the russ list to just shut down a couple of lascannons, as there are no weak units in the army. I suppose this would make it more luck based - either the opponent rolls well and shuts down my firepower quickly, or my opponent rolls poorly, and doesn't even scratch it as aversed to a list where my opponent will always slowly grind it down...

Yup. There's really no downsides to either list on your end. Fate, as it seems, is up to your dice.

KplKeegan wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Well, I think for now I've got to keep the melta. It may not seem like a lot, but 2x BiD melta at close range is a serious enough of a threat to act as a deterrent. I could see perhaps breaking up the 4th lasplas veterans and replace it with marbo and... something that costs roughly 70 points...

Primaris Psyker with his Nightshroud in a blob eh? Make vehicles roll for LD to shoot at 'em (LD 10 yes, but hilarious when it does happen). Lightning Arc is just a boon.

Hmm, so I guess we're coming to a question of play style. List one certainly has much more firepower (as in, like, double), but that loses killing power in a fluid fashion, collapsing as the various small units get picked off. List two has like half the firepower, but its firepower declines in chunks. There's no easy way with the russ list to just shut down a couple of lascannons, as there are no weak units in the army. I suppose this would make it more luck based - either the opponent rolls well and shuts down my firepower quickly, or my opponent rolls poorly, and doesn't even scratch it as aversed to a list where my opponent will always slowly grind it down...

Yup. There's really no downsides to either list on your end. Fate, as it seems, is up to your dice.

After reading several of Ailaros's battle reports, I think we can all safely say that if there is one thing Ailaros can't depend on, its his dice. Sorry Ailaros

A question about yarrick though. He makes a unit fearless yes? Wouldn't that be the worst possible thing for a blob to have? We're almost always losing combat, so he's going to mainly be causing fearless wounds on a unit that would stick around just fine without it. Unless you run him with Ogryn or a unit of like 40 conscripts, where you don't care if they take fearless wounds (because the former already has fearless, latter is just conscripts, they're supposed to die in droves) I don't see much point in bringing him. Although, he is Yarrick, and therefore he makes all units in the army 20% more manly just by being there, but I don't know if this is worth the huge pts sink and the potential detriment he could have on your army...

So, yarrick, you're right about the fearless (ogryn don't even have fearless, so they hurt even more, their T5 bodies taking auto-wounds), so I'm going to have to be careful. Why include him?

For one, fearless isn't going to matter as much for the power blobs. If the squad gets the charge, that's making the squad 50% manlier on the charge, plus you have to add to this the power fist attacks from yarrick himself. This means that the power blob isn't actually all that likely to lose the first round of combat (at least, by much) if they get the charge. After that, yarrick's punchiness will help mitigate the problems of fearless.

For blobs, the only thing I need to make sure of is that yarrick isn't in a squad that gets charged by something that can put down a crapton of attacks. That will be on my head to make sure that yarrick isn't in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even then, in that somewhat rare situation, at least yarrick will be able to hold his own until reinforcements arrive.

But why take the risk? It seems like a wash. Well, here's where the inspirational hero comes in. Units near yarrick gain Ld10, and they get stubborn. To put it another way, ANY unit within 12" of yarrick becomes a blob, even if they otherwise can't be a blob. This might not mean much for HWSs, being so easy to take down, but what about vets? Suddenly, vet sarges can take power fists on a stubborn squad with great leadership and, if they're within 12" of the CCS as well, they get a re-roll. Even better than a blob because of +1Ld, and nobody has to die.

Even if I don't pass out power weapons or power fists to the vet sarges, the vets still become easily twice as good in close combat as they were before and, more importantly, my whole army now becomes at least decent in close combat. This is on an army that can outshoot anything at long range, and has special weapon spam at shorter range. Follow this up with everything having stubborn, and this list is practically airtight.

Plus, I won't lie, there's a personal reason to this as well. For my last battle report series, I took small, specialized units that all had their jobs and all supported each other. Nothing fancy. No heroes. All of that writing about Daxos did make me pine for the days of Melchoir, when my officer squad actually did something interesting. Certainly won't be a dull day with yarrick around...