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We encountered a bit of a snag in our last few games over a CC issue. Say you have two models attacking the same enemy unit. They are both in base contact with only one model of the target unit (for the purpose of this issue). One of my models goes at I5, the other at I4. The first model attacks and causes a wound that is not saved. The defending player then removes the exact model in base contact with both of my attackers.

Does my model going at I4 still get to swing? He is not in base contact when his 'turn' arrives, and is not within 2 inches of an engaged model. It sounds logical,but i can see canny players greatly reducing the number of incomming attacks by removing models in base contact if their Ini is lower, or creating gaps around models with power claws, for instance.

Yes he can fight.

You determine eligibility for combat before any rolls, not after.

curran12 wrote:Yes he can fight.

You determine eligibility for combat before any rolls, not after.

This is correct for your situation above.

However, there are a few circumstances where a model can not attack due to casualties.

Lets say you have a terminator squad, 3 TH/SS and 2 LC's with a Librarian attached.

Lets also say you Multi-Assault a unit that has only 2 models left (Unit A), and another unit of 5 guys (Unit B) and you have 1 TH/SS model (T #1) who is only in B2B with one of the models from Unit A and you have a LC model (T #2) who is only in B2B with one of the models from Unit A, and the rest of the unit is in B2B with Unit B.

In the above situation if T #2 kills both models from Unit A, then T #1 can not attack anything as the only unit he was in B2B with is now dead.

DeathReaper wrote:In the above situation if T #2 kills both models from Unit A, then T #1 can not attack anything as the only unit he was in B2B with is now dead.

So, just to clarify, you're saying the only situation in which this can happen, is if a targeted unit is wiped out before a model (who was nomiated to target that unit) was able to strike at it?

Anyway, yes, you always check to see who can attack whom at the start of combat, and this persists throughout combat regardless of casualties removed.

I'm kind of confused as this also spills over to independent characters. Say if your IC could not reach combat and thus not in B2B with anything, can you still asign him wounds as the owning player or does the enemy still have to get b2b into him to get in wounds?

What if you say had a 5 man unit + 1 IC. They take 20 wounds total from assault and none are assigned to the IC by the attacking player, do you only have to put wounds on the squad or do you have to have the IC take some wounds too like 3 wounds for each model + 2 models getting 4 wounds? Or do you just assign all 20 wounds to the squad and each take 4 while the IC take none since it wasn't declared on him?

All models that are engaged may fight. This is measured at the start of the assault, after models are moved but before blows are struck. When it comes to a model's initiative sequence, he may still attack as long as he was engaged at the start of the combat, regardless of model positions at that point.

The only exception, which is what DeathReaper was trying to say, is that if a model is in base contact with only one enemy unit at the start of that combat, then he may only attack that unit, even if he's engaged with other units and the model he's in base contact with dies.

See the Rulebook pp35 and 41, and the FAQ p1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sudojoe wrote:I'm kind of confused as this also spills over to independent characters. Say if your IC could not reach combat and thus not in B2B with anything, can you still asign him wounds as the owning player or does the enemy still have to get b2b into him to get in wounds?

The IC is a separate unit when attacks are made, so needs to be in base contact to attack or be attacked. No excess wounds on his unit will spill over to him, unless they are a retinue (which is rare). You could cause a million wounds on his squad, but the IC won't take any unless he was specifically targeted by those attacks.

sudojoe wrote:I'm kind of confused as this also spills over to independent characters. Say if your IC could not reach combat and thus not in B2B with anything, can you still asign him wounds as the owning player or does the enemy still have to get b2b into him to get in wounds?

Once the swinging starts the IC is a separate unit, and you may not assign wounds inflicted on unit to another unit. You have to be in B2B contact with the IC to attack and therefore wound the IC. And the IC can only attack and therefore wound the unit(s) the IC is in B2B contact with.

So your saying is if there is a squad of 5 paladins with draigo attached, and i charge them and declare my attacks are going on the unit not draigo, my opponent cant allocate the instant death wounds to draigo to take advantage of his EW? If this is true, some GK players at my local store are going to be sad.

Considering that IC's are treated as separate units in CC, and you did not target him... I would suppose so, yeah.

Forcast wrote:So your saying is if there is a squad of 5 paladins with draigo attached, and i charge them and declare my attacks are going on the unit not draigo, my opponent cant allocate the instant death wounds to draigo to take advantage of his EW? If this is true, some GK players at my local store are going to be sad.

Ask them if you multi-assaulted the paladins and a strike squad, would they try to allocate wounds inflicted on the paladins to the strike squad. When they say "no, of course not," open the BRB to your book mark on page 49 where it tells you that ICs in assault are treated as a separate unit.

I read it that, although the combats take place at the same time, you divide your attacks between the multiple enemy units engaged. ergo you couldn't say you not attacking Draigo but you can minimise the number of attacks you make against him.

Draigos saves can only apply to the attacks directed against him specifically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cheexsta wrote:A
The only exception, which is what DeathReaper was trying to say, is that if a model is in base contact with only one enemy unit at the start of that combat, then he may only attack that unit, even if he's engaged with other units and the model he's in base contact with dies.

See the Rulebook pp35 and 41, and the FAQ p1.

I don't agree with that. The Errata adds and additional requirement that if a unit is in base contact with a unit and engaged with another it must attack that unit, it doesn't say it can ONLY attack that unit, I think that if the unit they are in base contact with is destroyed then they are released from this requirement and can attack the unit they are engaged with.

I think the intent is to compel a unit to attack a base contact unit before attacking an engaged unit.

This is because the second bullet point that talks about if they are engaged with more that one unit at the start still applies.

So if you were engaged with only one and they all die, you can't attack.
If you are engaged with 2 and in base contact with one and they all die you can attack the engaged unit
If you are engaged with two you can attack either.

Magpie wrote:If you are engaged with 2 and in base contact with one and they all die you can attack the engaged unit.

No you can not, as you were in B2B with one unit you must attack that unit, as per the restrictions.

So if you were in B2B with only the one unit, and that unit dies before you swing, that model may not attack, since you assess who he must attack before any blows are struck and at that time he could only attack the one unit since he was in B2B with a model from that unit, and now they are all dead so he looses his attacks.

DeathReaper wrote: ... since you assess who he must attack before any blows are struck ...

The rule says "when it is time for a model to attack" which is very different to "before any blows".

So you can wait to nominate until the unit comes up in sequence or init order.

Re-read Multiple Combats. P.41 Left Column,attacking section third bullet point.
if you are in B2B with 1 unit, you must attack that unit.

And we know from p.35 under who can fight that "Working out which models are engaged in combat is done at the start [of the round of combat] the brackets come from the FaQ.

So at the start of the round, if you are in B2B with only 1 unit you may only attack that one unit.

No that isn't so, you work out which models you are engaged with at the start and that condition doesn't change.

When it comes to the unit in question's turn to attack you nominate which you are going to attack.

You can attack any unit you are engaged with, however the errata now adds that if you are in base contact with a unit you must attack that unit. It doesn't say you can only attack that unit.

Magpie wrote:

DeathReaper wrote: ... since you assess who he must attack before any blows are struck ...

The rule says "when it is time for a model to attack" which is very different to "before any blows".

So you can wait to nominate until the unit comes up in sequence or init order.

Yes, you decide what to attack when it's time for the model to attack, but eligibility of targets (for multiple combats) is based on who the model was in B2B with at the start of the combat:

BRB wrote:
• Models that were engaged with just one of the
enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before
any model attacked) must attack that unit.
• Models that were engaged with more than one
enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before
any model attacked) may split their attacks freely
between those units. Declare how they are splitting
their attacks immediately before rolling to hit.

When it is time for a model to attack, if it was engaged at the start of combat only with units that have already been wiped out, there are no longer any valid units for that model to attack. The FAQ states that the "beginning of combat" is after defenders react but before any attacks are rolled.

So to answer the OP's question, both models would get to attack, assuming the unit they were engaged with at the start of combat still has units left.

DeathReaper wrote:Lets also say you Multi-Assault a unit that has only 2 models left (Unit A), and another unit of 5 guys (Unit B) and you have 1 TH/SS model (T #1) who is only in B2B with one of the models from Unit A and you have a LC model (T #2) who is only in B2B with one of the models from Unit A, and the rest of the unit is in B2B with Unit B.

In the above situation if T #2 kills both models from Unit A, then T #1 can not attack anything as the only unit he was in B2B with is now dead.

If T #1 is within 2" of any model in his unit that was B2B with unit B at the start of combat, then he is engaged with B and can attack that unit.

elrabin wrote:
Yes, you decide what to attack when it's time for the model to attack, but eligibility of targets (for multiple combats) is based on who the model was in B2B with at the start of the combat:

So are you agreeing with me?

You are B2B with unit A but not unit B. The other bloke in your unit is 2" away and B2B with unit B

Unit A all die by some other means

You can attack unit B

Yes?

No, because your only eligible target to attack, before blows are struck, is unit A

Magpie wrote:

elrabin wrote:
Yes, you decide what to attack when it's time for the model to attack, but eligibility of targets (for multiple combats) is based on who the model was in B2B with at the start of the combat:

So are you agreeing with me?

You are B2B with unit A but not unit B. The other bloke in your unit is 2" away and B2B with unit B

Unit A all die by some other means

You can attack unit B

Yes?

Yes*

The model in B2B with B attacks B. Any model in the same unit within 2" of the model in B2B with B can also attack B.

No. One model,at the start of the assault, couly ONLY attack A as they were in btb with A. He cannot attack B this round

Magpie wrote:You are B2B with unit A but not unit B. The other bloke in your unit is 2" away and B2B with unit B

Unit A all die by some other means

You can attack unit B

Yes?

NO.

And the underlined does not matter, as you were in B2B with A when it is determined who you can attack, and models in B2B with a unit may only attack that unit.

You can not attack unit B because you were only in B2B with unit A when eligibility determinations were made.

DeathReaper wrote:
models in B2B with a unit may only attack that unit.

Where is this specified? I can't find it in the BRB.

BRB Page 41, (Multiple Combats) First bullet point under "Attacking"

Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit.

elrabin wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
models in B2B with a unit may only attack that unit.

Where is this specified? I can't find it in the BRB.

It is in my post above...

DeathReaper wrote:Re-read Multiple Combats. P.41 Left Column,attacking section third bullet point.
if you are in B2B with 1 unit, you must attack that unit.

And we know from p.35 under who can fight that "Working out which models are engaged in combat is done at the start [of the round of combat] the brackets come from the FaQ.

So at the start of the round, if you are in B2B with only 1 unit you may only attack that one unit.

Check out the third Bullet point that talks about being in B2B. The first one really does not apply to the situation we are discussing.

Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
A third bullet point should be added, as follows:
• Models that at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one of the enemy units, must attack that unit.

ALWAYS check the FAQs.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
A third bullet point should be added, as follows:
• Models that at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one of the enemy units, must attack that unit.

ALWAYS check the FAQs.

Ah, right. My apologies. I remembered that was a rule, but couldn't find it. Never thought to look under errata!

I rescind my agreement with Magpie -- the answer is clearly no!

Also see the diagram at the bottom of pg 41. Specifically the text, where it says 'Space Marines 2,3,4 and 8 can only attack the units they're in base contact with." SM numbers 2 and 3 are engaged with both units, and yet are restrictied to swining agains the BtB unit only.

Even without the FAQ (which clears things up nicely) the diagram at the bottom of page 41 shows the answer as NO.

Space marine 2 (SM2) can only attack the Orks, not the Gretchin (despite being within 2" of SM1). If the Orks were whiped out before SM2 attacked (don't ask me how in that example) he would be unable to attack.

Also SM3 can only attack the Gretchin, despite being within 2" of SM1.

Edit: Nuts! Beaten by Lordhat while I was typing!

The BRB also clears it up. Page 41 Left Column,attacking section third bullet point.

In fact I am not even sure why that Errata is there. P.41, third bullet point says the exact same thing as the Errata. (At least in the AOBR mini rulebook it is that way).

DeathReaper wrote:The BRB also clears it up. Page 41 Left Column,attacking section third bullet point.

In fact I am not even sure why that Errata is there. P.41, third bullet point says the exact same thing as the Errata. (At least in the AOBR mini rulebook it is that way).

My copy doesn't have the third bullet point, so maybe they corrected it in the AOBR version.