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2012/04/12 16:55:51
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Everyone knows and loves their favorite cerebral take over piece of wargear.
But this came up with some friends and I while playing.
I've watched other Necron players simply nominate a single model in base contact. However, in the codex it states "... randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs."
This came up when my opponent had his DE Homunculus, 2 witches, and his crazy witch HQ lady (the one when she can get more attacks the lower the opponents WS is) surrounding my Overlord.
Rather than me nominating the obvious choice and having her strike at her comrades at a D3 + any bonuses she gets from assaulting, he and my other friends, argued that it had to be a 'random' nomination. So I rolled a D20 in all respects to the correlating attackers.
Was this right? Or was I able to simply state "Oh well shes gonna get mindshackled."
Please and thanks.
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2012/04/12 16:57:56
Subject: Re:Mindshackle Scarabs
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Freaky Flayed One
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Has to be completely random so what you did was acceptable.
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2012/04/12 16:59:04
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Indeed; it has to be random.
The situation you describe would be a perfect time for a Tesseract Labyrinth though. 
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2012/04/12 17:03:13
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I would use the Tesseract Labyrinth, would the 20 point investment be worth it? She's hard as balls to kill in combat with 5+ hitting her.
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2012/04/12 17:05:16
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I don't have my 'cron codex, but yes. I've killed Vect with it before - NO 2+ INVULN FOR U!  EDIT: And because it doesn't say "independent characters" but rather just "characters," it can be used to single out pesky Sergeants, Exarchs, et cetera.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/12 17:06:04
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2012/04/12 17:07:45
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant
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This is a comment issue with. Necron players. They will simply nominate a model rather than rolling a die to randomly choose.
First time this happened after the game I read up on the rule since my thunder hammer storm shield sargeant kept getting taken over. Always move multiplw models into base contact with mindshackle units.
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2012/04/12 17:17:44
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Dakka Veteran
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I always do it randomly, its easy since they are only in base contact with 2-3 models tops... so its usually "1-3 on this model, 4-6 on this model" (or 1-2, 3-4, 5-6)
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Total Finecast models purchased: 5
Total models without Finecast issues out of those purchased: 0
...  "Finecast" |
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2012/04/12 17:45:24
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Hellacious Havoc
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Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't have my 'cron codex, but yes. I've killed Vect with it before - NO 2+ INVULN FOR U!
EDIT: And because it doesn't say "independent characters" but rather just "characters," it can be used to single out pesky Sergeants, Exarchs, et cetera.
I was under the impression that RAW characters were things like Mephiston, Librarians, Crowe, Draigo, Farseers ect.
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DC:80S+G+MB+IPw40k99#+D+A++/cWDR++T(M)DM+ |
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2012/04/12 17:48:57
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
Sioux Falls, SD
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rogueeyes wrote:This is a comment issue with. Necron players. They will simply nominate a model rather than rolling a die to randomly choose.
First time this happened after the game I read up on the rule since my thunder hammer storm shield sargeant kept getting taken over. Always move multiplw models into base contact with mindshackle units.
That is a good plan for protecting your TH SS seargent, the only issue arises if the necron player decides to assault you and moves his models so it's only possible for the one with MSS to be in contact with a single model.
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Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius!  |
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2012/04/12 17:57:00
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
Ireland
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sydewynder wrote:Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't have my 'cron codex, but yes. I've killed Vect with it before - NO 2+ INVULN FOR U!
EDIT: And because it doesn't say "independent characters" but rather just "characters," it can be used to single out pesky Sergeants, Exarchs, et cetera.
I was under the impression that RAW characters were things like Mephiston, Librarians, Crowe, Draigo, Farseers ect.
Well in fairness Lords and Crypteks have are Character (Infantry) types so they should be able to be targeted. Now do SM sergeants, Nobz and the like have the same Unit Type?
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By the 37 keys of Tzeentch,We open the way for our brothers,
By the 1000 whispers of Slaanesh we call to them,
By the 12 plagues of Nurgle we fell their enemies,
And by the mighty axe of Khorne we cut open the world for them!
- Ritual of Summoning, Recited by Amphion and Zethus Dark Sorcerers of the Deimos Peninsula,Kronos
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2012/04/12 18:12:48
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Voodoo_Chile wrote:Well in fairness Lords and Crypteks have are Character (Infantry) types so they should be able to be targeted. Now do SM sergeants, Nobz and the like have the same Unit Type?
SM Sergeants do not have the Character type. They are simply Infantry.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2012/04/12 18:28:12
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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DeathReaper wrote:Voodoo_Chile wrote:Well in fairness Lords and Crypteks have are Character (Infantry) types so they should be able to be targeted. Now do SM sergeants, Nobz and the like have the same Unit Type?
SM Sergeants do not have the Character type. They are simply Infantry.
They are characters according to the second bullet point on page 47 of the BGB.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2012/04/12 19:20:04
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Lordhat wrote:DeathReaper wrote:SM Sergeants do not have the Character type. They are simply Infantry.
They are characters according to the second bullet point on page 47 of the BGB.
Most Sergeants are not upgrade characters.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/13 16:46:47
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2012/04/12 19:44:25
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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DR, if I may quote the BRB (page 47, second bullet point) Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from the start of the game, representing a squad leader or unit champion, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant
The first sentence gives a Veteran Sergeant as an example. The second sentence then goes onto explain that they do not have their own entries.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/12 19:45:31
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2012/04/12 19:53:40
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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Happyjew wrote:DR, if I may quote the BRB (page 47, second bullet point)
Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from the start of the game, representing a squad leader or unit champion, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant
The first sentence gives a Veteran Sergeant as an example. The second sentence then goes onto explain that they do not have their own entries.
Good example, however is there even such a thing as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant? I have seen a Space Marine Sergeant, but not a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. Guess until my Space Marine Sergeant reaches veteran status (whatever that might be) he is not a character.
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2012/04/12 20:05:20
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Brother Ramses wrote:Happyjew wrote:DR, if I may quote the BRB (page 47, second bullet point) Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from the start of the game, representing a squad leader or unit champion, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant
The first sentence gives a Veteran Sergeant as an example. The second sentence then goes onto explain that they do not have their own entries.
Good example, however is there even such a thing as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant? I have seen a Space Marine Sergeant, but not a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. Guess until my Space Marine Sergeant reaches veteran status (whatever that might be) he is not a character.
Exactly this. The book lists Space Marine Sergeants. Not 'Space Marine Veteran Sergeants' So as I said, "Most Sergeants are not upgrade characters."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/13 16:46:37
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2012/04/12 20:31:28
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I see what you did there. i didn't even look at the SM codex to verify there was in fact such a thing as a Veteran Sergeant. However, the second sentence (the one about upgrade characters not having their own entry but are just "one of the guys" with possibly better stats and options) still stands.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2012/04/13 16:25:19
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Indeed, regardless of the example given:
Upgrade Characters are still "Characters" per page 47 or the BRB.
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2012/04/13 16:34:02
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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As it is I realized I completely forgot to mention that RAW, Telion is not an Upgrade character as he has is own separate entry.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2012/04/13 16:46:23
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Happyjew wrote:As it is I realized I completely forgot to mention that RAW, Telion is not an Upgrade character as he has is own separate entry.
That's right, telion is a special character. An upgrade character is something like a Skull Champion P.98 CSM Codex. His entry says "Character: One model may be upgraded to a Skull Champion for XX Points".
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/13 16:52:52
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2012/04/13 17:06:33
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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DeathReaper wrote:Happyjew wrote:As it is I realized I completely forgot to mention that RAW, Telion is not an Upgrade character as he has is own separate entry.
That's right, telion is a special character.
An upgrade character is something like a Skull Champion P.98 CSM Codex.
His entry says "Character: One model may be upgraded to a Skull Champion for XX Points".
Which still seems to leave out a Space Marine Sergeant IIRC as his entry does not say character or am I missing something?
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2012/04/13 17:11:15
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Does a Space Marine Sergeant have better stats or access to different wargear (possibly more or better)?
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2012/04/13 17:12:42
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Brother Ramses wrote:
Which still seems to leave out a Space Marine Sergeant IIRC as his entry does not say character or am I missing something?
You're missing proof that the rules require an entry to say 'character' for a model to be one.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/13 17:13:50
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2012/04/13 18:29:44
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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Lordhat wrote:Brother Ramses wrote:
Which still seems to leave out a Space Marine Sergeant IIRC as his entry does not say character or am I missing something?
You're missing proof that the rules require an entry to say 'character' for a model to be one.
And the rules give an example of a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant that does not even exist. So by all means connect the points that make a Space Marine Sergeant a character for me.
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2012/04/13 18:40:18
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Well looking at a Tactical Squad Sergeant I see
a) enhanced characteristics
b) a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices, and
c) he does not have an entry of his own.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2012/04/13 20:56:12
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Member of the Malleus
Boston, MA
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Sergeants are characters. Don't get into semantics like whether it says "veteran" or not, 40k is not a key-word based game.
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2012/04/13 20:59:09
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Of course does being a character (even if you have the exact same statline minus name; and wargear) enough to make you a different wound group for the purposes of making saves?
If so, then we can finally put the whole Assault Terminator Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant thing to bed.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2012/04/13 21:58:22
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Happyjew wrote:Of course does being a character (even if you have the exact same statline minus name; and wargear) enough to make you a different wound group for the purposes of making saves?
If so, then we can finally put the whole Assault Terminator Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant thing to bed.
It's classed as identical if the model has the same profile of characteristics, special rules and weapons/wargear (p25).
So no, a name or being a character isn't enough to make them non-identical for allocating.
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2012/04/13 22:58:15
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Brother Ramses wrote:DeathReaper wrote:That's right, telion is a special character.
An upgrade character is something like a Skull Champion P.98 CSM Codex.
His entry says "Character: One model may be upgraded to a Skull Champion for XX Points".
Which still seems to leave out a Space Marine Sergeant IIRC as his entry does not say character or am I missing something?
Yes, it still leaves out the Space Marine Sergeant as his entry does not say character. So he is not a character. In 4th ed he may have been, but he is no longer listed that way.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/13 22:58:57
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2012/04/13 23:12:50
Subject: Mindshackle Scarabs
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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He is an Upgrade Character, however, as he fits the definition of one.
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5000+ Points
3000+ Points
3500+ Points
2000+ Points