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There OVER POWERED!

Luke1234567890 wrote:There OVER POWERED!

They're*

And not sure if serious...

grendel083 wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
It seems feasible that if I buy my Necron Lord a Tesseract Labyrith, and he finds himself in base contact with a Sergeant with a powerfist, he can single him out and punk him at I2 on a roll of 2+?

Just wanting to make sure I'm not missing anything...

Not quite, it's independent characters that can be singled out in combat, not upgrade characters.

Nope. It says "characters or Monstrous Creatures in base contact" not "Independent Characters." Anything that is considered a character can be singled out.

McNinja wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
It seems feasible that if I buy my Necron Lord a Tesseract Labyrith, and he finds himself in base contact with a Sergeant with a powerfist, he can single him out and punk him at I2 on a roll of 2+?

Just wanting to make sure I'm not missing anything...

Not quite, it's independent characters that can be singled out in combat, not upgrade characters.

Nope. It says "characters or Monstrous Creatures in base contact" not "Independent Characters." Anything that is considered a character can be singled out.

You're talking past each other. The labyrinth allows you to single out any character or monstrous creature. Normally, only ICs can be singled out in combat.

McNinja wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
It seems feasible that if I buy my Necron Lord a Tesseract Labyrith, and he finds himself in base contact with a Sergeant with a powerfist, he can single him out and punk him at I2 on a roll of 2+?

Just wanting to make sure I'm not missing anything...

Not quite, it's independent characters that can be singled out in combat, not upgrade characters.

Nope. It says "characters or Monstrous Creatures in base contact" not "Independent Characters." Anything that is considered a character can be singled out.

Independent Characters are characters. IC are merely a subgroup of Character. They are not exclusive.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

McNinja wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
It seems feasible that if I buy my Necron Lord a Tesseract Labyrith, and he finds himself in base contact with a Sergeant with a powerfist, he can single him out and punk him at I2 on a roll of 2+?

Just wanting to make sure I'm not missing anything...

Not quite, it's independent characters that can be singled out in combat, not upgrade characters.

Nope. It says "characters or Monstrous Creatures in base contact" not "Independent Characters." Anything that is considered a character can be singled out.

Independent Characters are characters. IC are merely a subgroup of Character. They are not exclusive.

That wasn't the question. Halfpast asked if upgrade characters like sergeants could be singled out with a Labyrinth. Grendel said only ICs can be singled out with a Labyrinth. I corrected him.

rigeld2 wrote:

McNinja wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
It seems feasible that if I buy my Necron Lord a Tesseract Labyrith, and he finds himself in base contact with a Sergeant with a powerfist, he can single him out and punk him at I2 on a roll of 2+?

Just wanting to make sure I'm not missing anything...

Not quite, it's independent characters that can be singled out in combat, not upgrade characters.

Nope. It says "characters or Monstrous Creatures in base contact" not "Independent Characters." Anything that is considered a character can be singled out.

You're talking past each other. The labyrinth allows you to single out any character or monstrous creature. Normally, only ICs can be singled out in combat.

Perhaps, but Halfpast's question was about the Tesseract labyrinth, not close combat in general.

Right. Both of you were correct. I think Grendel missed the TL reference, or wasn't aware of the rules surrounding it.

McNinja wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

McNinja wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
It seems feasible that if I buy my Necron Lord a Tesseract Labyrith, and he finds himself in base contact with a Sergeant with a powerfist, he can single him out and punk him at I2 on a roll of 2+?

Just wanting to make sure I'm not missing anything...

Not quite, it's independent characters that can be singled out in combat, not upgrade characters.

Nope. It says "characters or Monstrous Creatures in base contact" not "Independent Characters." Anything that is considered a character can be singled out.

Independent Characters are characters. IC are merely a subgroup of Character. They are not exclusive.

That wasn't the question. Halfpast asked if upgrade characters like sergeants could be singled out with a Labyrinth. Grendel said only ICs can be singled out with a Labyrinth. I corrected him.

Ah, my apologies. I misunderstood.

rigeld2 wrote:Right. Both of you were correct. I think Grendel missed the TL reference, or wasn't aware of the rules surrounding it.

Yep, I missed the TL. Sorry about that. Thought it was about singling out characters in combat.

No worries.

Anyway, I like how we answered the OPs question in the first 3 or 4 posts then argued about characters for 2 pages. Always fun to be had in YMDC.

However, you can do either
1) Move him and his unit so that the OL is only in BC with the single unit you want to MS.

or

2) Attack a solo unit/MC/IC.

The random part of the MSS is easy to get around, but if you do it wrong, it can mess you up.

Luke1234567890 wrote:There OVER POWERED!

Yes, MS Scarabs are but considering how UNDERPOWERED the rest of our codex is in assault, it balances out!

MSS are great, wraiths are great, scarabs are great against the right targets, Lychguard can be great. The Royal Court can be nasty. Necrons are better in assault than a lot of armies, despite their flaws.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Luke1234567890 wrote:There OVER POWERED!

Yes, MS Scarabs are but considering how UNDERPOWERED the rest of our codex is in assault, it balances out!

What, Annihilation barges and solar pulses are underpowered? News to people doing well with them.

Don't forget wraiths.
35 ppm is far too much for Jump Infantry with S6 T4 2W, A3, 3++, Rending, ignore terrain tests and who are able to purchase wargear that drops enemies to I1, removing their only weakness (I2) in assault.

Also, CCB:s are extremely poor when you put lord with warscythe on them.

Disclaimer for the sarcasm impairedr: Obviously both of these (and scarabs) are majorly undercosted.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Luke1234567890 wrote:There OVER POWERED!

Yes, MS Scarabs are but considering how UNDERPOWERED the rest of our codex is in assault, it balances out!

What, Annihilation barges and solar pulses are underpowered? News to people doing well with them.

Are they using Annihilation barge and Solar pulses in assaults? As that is what I said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luide wrote:Don't forget wraiths.
35 ppm is far too much for Jump Infantry with S6 T4 2W, A3, 3++, Rending, ignore terrain tests and who are able to purchase wargear that drops enemies to I1, removing their only weakness (I2) in assault.

Also, CCB:s are extremely poor when you put lord with warscythe on them.

Disclaimer for the sarcasm impairedr: Obviously both of these (and scarabs) are majorly undercosted.

Wraiths are far from Undercosted, especially when to use them effectively they are 45pts a piece for at least 4 out of the 6. Command barges are nice, but to build an effective close combat unit, it is better to run the Destroyer lords with MS Scarabs attached to the Wraiths. Command Barges cost minimum 180 pts for a Sweep you maybe pull off 1 or 2 times before your opponent puts the thing down and you have a rather ineffective Overlord foot sloggin on his own, if he isn't killed straight up after the CCB goes down.

yep, 3++ invulnerable save lords are very difficult to put down, will only t5 and a s7+2d6 power weapon to help them.

Necrons underpowered in assault? Only if you let thrm be

Paying 255 points for that Bargelord setup. Please explain how that's actually too cheap for a meltabait vehicle and an IC that gets pulled down by basic troops units due to the unholy combo of low WS and attack values?

When you're spending 1.5 to twice the points on units to enable them to face off against other armies as equals in combat, I would say yes, the codex is underpowered in assault.

Not 255, as no 2+ save - you dont need it. How is melta catching up to your fast skimmer, until you need it to? You also dont send your lord against chaff troops - he hits vehicles, or MCs, or important things. Between MSS and a scythe there isnt a lot that he's afraid of.

WS4 isnt low, A3 isnt low (same as a SM captain) - is it a combat powerhouse? No, but its a very good distraction, and chops important things while your army takes everything else apart

I never said it was TOO cheap, I stated it wasnt underpowered - there is a classic fallacy you're making called "the excluded middle" - theyre actually pretty well balanced, points wise, as they terrify elite stuff, while chaff couldnt care less.

And, to return to the OP question, with a little smart positioning and a few clever pile-in moves, you can place the character bearing the Mindshackle Scarabs somewhere where the possibilities of choosing (randomly) the model you want to are greater.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not 255, as no 2+ save - you dont need it. How is melta catching up to your fast skimmer, until you need it to? You also dont send your lord against chaff troops - he hits vehicles, or MCs, or important things. Between MSS and a scythe there isnt a lot that he's afraid of.

WS4 isnt low, A3 isnt low (same as a SM captain) - is it a combat powerhouse? No, but its a very good distraction, and chops important things while your army takes everything else apart

I never said it was TOO cheap, I stated it wasnt underpowered - there is a classic fallacy you're making called "the excluded middle" - theyre actually pretty well balanced, points wise, as they terrify elite stuff, while chaff couldnt care less.

Alright, no 2+, so 240 points and even worse against Grey Hunters, BA assault squads, and missles/autocannon spam.

How is Melta catching up to fast skimmers? Well we've moved on from 4th to 5th ed, and a cursory glance at the army list forums or discussion on any blog will show that melta spam is delivered in Chimeras/Rhinos/razorbacks/venoms, falls from the skies on jump packs, drop pods or in the hands of stormtroopers, or is so called 'fast melta' on bikes or speeders. Given that the barge doesn't have guns worth a damn, I stand by the 'meltabait' tag as apt.

So the rest. The overlord doesn't shoot, he MUST make combat to redeem the equipment paid for. The best case scenario for the Overlord is a 1v1 with a monstrous creature who subsequently fails the ~50% MSS test. So again, 5th ed competitive 40k, how prevalent are expensive MCs in winning armies? Not very. MCs have fallen out of favor - Anni barges over Ctan, psyflemen over Dreadknights.

Vehicles? Whether a 35 pt Rhino or a Land Raider you're hoping to roll the 6 needed to hit before armour pen, other armies are using their 120 pt str 8 spammers on the former and their 120pt melta spammers on the latter. How is this 240 point investment holding up again?

Thanks for illustrating my point with the Marine captain, who hits most things 3's, at initiative 5, equal to or before most, has the option to wield 2 ccws and benefits from rerolls. The Overlord hits on 4s, if he lives to, and cannot increase his attacks value. Not even close.

Examples for similar HQs for cost.

Still top tier, Vulkan. even if he never sees combat your army benefits from his presence. In combat, far better stats.

Midroad, Mephiston. Same cost with the barge thrown in, Mephi has the speed, Psychic hood value, far more of a combat threat and can be a can-opener.

Low tier, Sanguinor. 2+/3+ eternal, 5 attacks base mastercrafted, absurd WS and initiative, substantial +1 attack aura, rerolls everything vs an IC.

Now given I'm well aware of logical fallacies, the Sanguinor is generally considered to be overcosted in the current meta yet to me still shapes up as adding more to a BA list than a 160(240) barge lord, I think it's safe to stand by the observation that the geared surfboard Lord pays too much for the value he returns to the Necron army in 5th ed.

There is 6th to look forward and hope forfor cron players.

Ah, so you missed the point of the "dont send it against chaff" comment then.

How are melta delivered in venoms? I think in your sarcasm filled post you are starting to make a few teensy errors. Good luck with a chimera catching a CCB in 2D6 range, and if the squad inside (scoring...) get out to still be able to fire their guns, likely just outside 6" 2D6 range, then your excellent anti infantry guns then pulverise the unit

Why "must" he make combat? Is immobilising / wrecking a landraider not sufficient? Assumign 12" or slower thats a 3+ to hit, on average glancing so you expect to do some damage. On <AV14, say rear armour 10 on a blender dread that would otherwise happily walk through your lines the results are far better. Best part? If you pay attention you get to see if you have wrecked the vehicle *before* disembarking! Such flexibility. All on an AV13 platform, with AV11 rear, whcih if you again pay attention is tricky to down if those long range melta fail.

Your naive analysis of simple points costs doesnt take into account utility - killing a 50pt psyback doesnt sound a great ROI, until you realise that exposed the scoring GH squad inside to that anti infantry fire power Necrons do so well at, and is quite amusingly very 4th ed mindset, despite your sarcasm.

It is not "safe" to stand by your observation, as quite frankly empirical (half a dozen recent tournaments I've been to / had friends attend, all at 50 - 120 people) evidence suggests your opinion is bunk.>