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DeathReaper wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:That's right, telion is a special character.

An upgrade character is something like a Skull Champion P.98 CSM Codex.

His entry says "Character: One model may be upgraded to a Skull Champion for XX Points".

Which still seems to leave out a Space Marine Sergeant IIRC as his entry does not say character or am I missing something?

Yes, it still leaves out the Space Marine Sergeant as his entry does not say character.

So he is not a character.

In 4th ed he may have been, but he is no longer listed that way.

Where in the rules under character, does it say that a model must have the term character listed? The SM Sergeant fulfills all the listed requirements to be a character, therefor he is one.

Permissive ruleset, he is not listed as a character so he is not a character.

Unless things that fit the description of other thing make them that, in that case Honor Guards are retinue, since they fit the description of a retinue.

DeathReaper wrote:Permissive ruleset, he is not listed as a character so he is not a character.

Unless things that fit the description of other thing make them that, in that case Honor Guards are retinue, since they fit the description of a retinue.

Except they don't. I don't know of any requirement for them to be joined by the IC that unlocks them.

Actually by the description of a retinue, Telion and the unit of scouts fits the description.

Is Telion's scouts his retinue?

According to the Flavor text he is. But is he by the rules?

No. He isn't an IC that loses the rule.

rigeld2 wrote:No. He isn't an IC that loses the rule.

He does not need to be.

Re-read retinues P.48, he becomes an IC after all other members of the unit are killed.

DeathReaper wrote:Permissive ruleset, he is not listed as a character so he is not a character.

Point me to the rule that says he must have the character type to be a character. I can point you to the one that lists the criteria for being a character (every one of which the SM sergeant meets). Note this little tidbit as well:

BGB pg. 47 wrote: ...If a model is an independent character, it will have its own entry in the appropriate codex, and it's rules will also clearly state that the model is an independent character.

Emphasis mine.

There is no such qualifier under the upgrade character bullet point. The UC bullet point describes the SM sergeant in every way, and lists absolutely NO requirement that the term 'Character' be mentioned in any way.

The CSM codex lists the character (Skull Champion) in the unit of Khorne Berzerkers.

Precedent says that characters are listed as such.

DeathReaper wrote:The CSM codex lists the character (Skull Champion) in the unit of Khorne Berzerkers.

Precedent says that characters are listed as such.

Precedent also says the GW is less than consistent, and without a rule explicitly stating that x must be labelled as x, then anything that meets the listed requirements for x is x.

DeathReaper wrote:Permissive ruleset, he is not listed as a character so he is not a character

False. If he meets the qualifications of being a character, then he is given permission to be a character.

Veteran Sergeants were an optional upgrade in previous versions of the SM book, working just like the Aspiring Champions in CSM.

Sergeants in the current SM book are identical in all respects to the old Vet Sgts, except for the name and no longer being optional. They're still upgrade characters based on the description of upgrade character in the rulebook.

The old book you had to purchase the Sgt as an upgrade. That is why they were an upgrade character.

This is something you no longer have to do, and they are not labeled as characters in their entry, so we have no permission to treat them as such.

Unless you are saying that we do, then in that case Telion's scout unit are a retinue, and Telion becomes an IC after all the scouts are killed.

DeathReaper wrote:Unless you are saying that we do, then in that case Telion's scout unit are a retinue, and Telion becomes an IC after all the scouts are killed.

If Telion's unit is killed he'd be a character on his own, he wouldn't suddenly gain the IC rule. He'd be by himself unable to join other units. Just like an imperial guard Company Commander, or Cryptecs. There are many cases of non-independent characters being attached to units.

DeathReaper wrote:The old book you had to purchase the Sgt as an upgrade. That is why they were an upgrade character.

This is something you no longer have to do, and they are not labeled as characters in their entry, so we have no permission to treat them as such.

Unless you are saying that we do, then in that case Telion's scout unit are a retinue, and Telion becomes an IC after all the scouts are killed.

Telion is not an IC at ny point, so cannot have a retinue. Given the retinue rules are under the IC rules....

You have permission to be an upgrade character by meeting the definition of such

Re-read the retinue rules, he would become an IC after his unit is killed, there is nothing about him being an IC to start with.

DeathReaper wrote:Re-read the retinue rules

No one uses retinue rules anymore, just a leftover from past editions

That would be like saying IG HQ people turn into IC after their squad is killed, which they cant since they lack the IC rule

DeathReaper wrote:Re-read the retinue rules, he would become an IC after his unit is killed, there is nothing about him being an IC to start with.

Retinue is a rule for Independant Characters, it's all boxed together under "Independent Characters Joining and Leaving Units". Telion is an upgrade character for a unit, not an IC with a retinue. If every Upgrade character counted their unit as being a retinue you'd have sergeants and Nobs running off to join other squads.

DeathReaper wrote:Re-read the retinue rules, he would become an IC after his unit is killed, there is nothing about him being an IC to start with.

Try again -the context of retinues is ICs. Given the condition for becoming an IC after the unit dies is that you were an IC to begin with (returns) and Telion is not an IC, it cannot be a retinue.

kenshin620 wrote:No one uses retinue rules anymore, just a leftover from past editions

That would be like saying IG HQ people turn into IC after their squad is killed, which they cant since they lack the IC rule

I believe Space Marine Command Squads are still a Retinue.

But yes, IG CCS changed the Commander from a IC to a Upgrade character in the latest codex. He's on his own when the squad dies.

grendel083 wrote:I believe Space Marine Command Squads are still a Retinue.

You believe wrong.
There's nothing forcing the unlocking HQ to join the squad, or disallowing him from joining if he does.

There are very few retinues left, Tau have some, BT have some (but they dont function as a retinue in CC, meaning they get the worst deal possible), and thats about it.

grendel083 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Re-read the retinue rules, he would become an IC after his unit is killed, there is nothing about him being an IC to start with.

Retinue is a rule for Independant Characters, it's all boxed together under "Independent Characters Joining and Leaving Units". Telion is an upgrade character for a unit, not an IC with a retinue. If every Upgrade character counted their unit as being a retinue you'd have sergeants and Nobs running off to join other squads.

The Context of Instant Death is shooting.

So Instant Death is only for Shooting, since the rules for it are only listed in the shooting section?

DeathReaper wrote:
The Context of Instant Death is shooting.

So Instant Death is only for Shooting, since the rules for it are only listed in the shooting section?

Yes, we all know that the 40K rulebook is written with core rules being in the specific phases of the game that they are most commonly found. And yes, these rules are often referenced and utilized in sections outside of where they are presented.

However, that doesn't automatically mean that context is thrown completely out the window and any given sentence in the rulebook can be isolated from the context from which it was written and applied willy-nilly.

Read the retinue rule again (emphasis mine):

"Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or something similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of the unit are killed, at which point is starts counting as an Independent Character and it will do so for the rest of the game."


The rules on the previous page established exactly what an upgrade character is...just another member of a unit. There is no chance that an upgrade character can ever leave a unit and upgrade characters don't need to 'count as an upgrade character' they ARE upgrade characters.

So in context of where the retinue rule is written and HOW it is written, it is quite clear that it applies only to Independent Characters.

DeathReaper wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Re-read the retinue rules, he would become an IC after his unit is killed, there is nothing about him being an IC to start with.

Retinue is a rule for Independant Characters, it's all boxed together under "Independent Characters Joining and Leaving Units". Telion is an upgrade character for a unit, not an IC with a retinue. If every Upgrade character counted their unit as being a retinue you'd have sergeants and Nobs running off to join other squads.

The Context of Instant Death is shooting.

So Instant Death is only for Shooting, since the rules for it are only listed in the shooting section?

As I said it's boxed together under one category. Instant death isn't. Those boxes are used many times in the rulebook.
Another example, the rules on Eldar Jetbikes (p53) boxed toegther under "Jetbikes". Does this mean Eldar Jetbikes applies to jetbikes and not normal bikes? Yes it does.
How about (p65) Skimmers, boxed under "Vehicle Types". This shows a skimmer is a vehicle type and not anything else.

DeathReaper wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Re-read the retinue rules, he would become an IC after his unit is killed, there is nothing about him being an IC to start with.

Retinue is a rule for Independant Characters, it's all boxed together under "Independent Characters Joining and Leaving Units". Telion is an upgrade character for a unit, not an IC with a retinue. If every Upgrade character counted their unit as being a retinue you'd have sergeants and Nobs running off to join other squads.

The Context of Instant Death is shooting.

So Instant Death is only for Shooting, since the rules for it are only listed in the shooting section?

Are you serious? Do you not know what an example is?

Besides that, however, it doesn't matter what the freaking example is, it matter what the rulebook defines the thing (whether it be reserves or Instant Death or Upgrade Characters). Also, the cost of the SM upgrade characters is already included in the unit's point cost, unlike the DE codex, for example (see what I did there?).

Rulebook on Upgrade Characters (emphasis mine):
Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from
the start of the game, representing a squad leader or
unit champion, such as a Space Marine Veteran
Sergeant. They do not have an entry of their own
and are effectively just another trooper in their unit,
with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider
selection of weapons and wargear choices.

SM/scout sergeants are Upgrade Characters. Since Sgt. Telion replaces a Scout sergeant, he is also an upgrade character. Crypteks and Lords are Upgrade Characters.

Ok, so for everyone else but DeathReaper;

It seems feasible that if I buy my Necron Lord a Tesseract Labyrith, and he finds himself in base contact with a Sergeant with a powerfist, he can single him out and punk him at I2 on a roll of 2+?

Just wanting to make sure I'm not missing anything...

McNinja wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Re-read the retinue rules, he would become an IC after his unit is killed, there is nothing about him being an IC to start with.

Retinue is a rule for Independant Characters, it's all boxed together under "Independent Characters Joining and Leaving Units". Telion is an upgrade character for a unit, not an IC with a retinue. If every Upgrade character counted their unit as being a retinue you'd have sergeants and Nobs running off to join other squads.

The Context of Instant Death is shooting.

So Instant Death is only for Shooting, since the rules for it are only listed in the shooting section?

Are you serious? Do you not know what an example is?

Besides that, however, it doesn't matter what the freaking example is, it matter what the rulebook defines the thing (whether it be reserves or Instant Death or Upgrade Characters). Also, the cost of the SM upgrade characters is already included in the unit's point cost, unlike the DE codex, for example (see what I did there?).

Rulebook on Upgrade Characters (emphasis mine):
Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from
the start of the game, representing a squad leader or
unit champion, such as a Space Marine Veteran
Sergeant. They do not have an entry of their own
and are effectively just another trooper in their unit,
with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider
selection of weapons and wargear choices.

SM/scout sergeants are Upgrade Characters. Since Sgt. Telion replaces a Scout sergeant, he is also an upgrade character. Crypteks and Lords are Upgrade Characters.

Hmm, funny that by the definition above then, Wolf Guard assigned to units are not upgrade characters. Interestingly enough, Arjac would be an upgrade character if he remained with a unit of Wolf Guard, but not if he was assigned out to another unit.

Brother Ramses wrote:
Hmm, funny that by the definition above then, Wolf Guard assigned to units are not upgrade characters. Interestingly enough, Arjac would be an upgrade character if he remained with a unit of Wolf Guard, but not if he was assigned out to another unit.

Except for the SW FAQ which specifically says that Wolf Guard that are assigned to that unit become part of that pack for 'all intents and purposes'.

Its clearly a specific situation where you have a special rule adding an upgrade character to a unit, something not covered in the basic definition of an upgrade character because it is an abnormal situation. So as always, the specific exception overrides the general rule.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
It seems feasible that if I buy my Necron Lord a Tesseract Labyrith, and he finds himself in base contact with a Sergeant with a powerfist, he can single him out and punk him at I2 on a roll of 2+?

Just wanting to make sure I'm not missing anything...

Not quite, it's independent characters that can be singled out in combat, not upgrade characters.

grendel083 wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
It seems feasible that if I buy my Necron Lord a Tesseract Labyrith, and he finds himself in base contact with a Sergeant with a powerfist, he can single him out and punk him at I2 on a roll of 2+?

Just wanting to make sure I'm not missing anything...

Not quite, it's independent characters that can be singled out in combat, not upgrade characters.

But wouldn't the TL's rules seem to force an upgrade character to test against it if the Necron player chose to employ it for the round of combat?