Can gift of Chaos be cast twice?

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**Ixidor13**

So me and Texan_Tyrant have been going back and forth on this. Can a MoT Demon Prince dual cast Gift of Chaos? The relevant part of the FAQ (available of the GW website), are linked below.

Q. Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three times during the same turn? (p50)
A. Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is true for Warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn!

I realize that this entry is listed under Ahriman, but the answer is worded in the abstract, as if quoting a rule, and seems to apply to any unit capable of casting more than one psychic power. Help please.

**jgehunter**

Check the BRB Faq

Q: Can a pysker attempt to cast the same psychic power more than once in a turn? (p50)
A: No, unless the psychic power itself specifically allows it.

**Ixidor13**

That seems to directly contradict the CSM FAQ. Which came out last?

**Texan_tyrant**

Why thank you my good man.

**jgehunter**

Ixidor13 wrote:That seems to directly contradict the CSM FAQ. Which came out last?

They both aren't new so unless somebody downloaded old versions we don't have a clue.

**Ixidor13**

Thanks.

**jgehunter**

Even though it doesn't matter in YMDC it might not be a bad idea dropping an email to GW over this...

**grendel083**

The date of release is listed at the bottom of each FAQ

Rulebook: 9th Jan 2012
Chaos: 5th Dec 2011

Seems like only Ahriman is given permission.

**Texan_tyrant**

Alright Dakka, so basically Ixidor is claiming that the FAQ question about Ahriman also applies to the Demon Prince. As has been shown, the FAQ is not quoting any sort of general rule, only stating what specifically applies to Ahriman.

**Ixidor13**

Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is true for Warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn!

^^Straight from the FAQ

The fact that it is listed under Ahriman is immaterial.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Screw it, I'll email GW and post the reply. I just want to know one way or the other.

**odorofdeath**

Nope. Only Ahriman.

Cause gift was way too good before, it needed toning down.

**rigeld2**

Ixidor13 wrote:Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is true for Warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn!

^^Straight from the FAQ

The fact that it is listed under Ahriman is immaterial.

I disagree.

Ahriman can use multiple powers per turn. He has access to PSAs. A normal model can only make one shooting attack - the FAQ was clarifying for Ahriman that he can still only use one PSA.

**calypso2ts**

You cannot cherry pick the answer from a question and omit the original question. In this case, this applies only to Ahriman.

**Ixidor13**

We'll see. I'll email them next period.

**rigeld2**

Ixidor13 wrote:We'll see. I'll email them next period.

Cause emails are so reliable.

**calypso2ts**

You might as well flip a coin, the GW customer support is great with respect to models. They are not required to be rules experts and all you will get is the opinion of one employee there.

**Texan_tyrant**

rigeld2 wrote:
Ixidor13 wrote:We'll see. I'll email them next period.

Cause emails are so reliable.

What, is GW gonna troll him just for lulz? It may take a little while, sure, but it's Wednesay, we have plenty of time before any games will be played.

**DeathReaper**

Texan_tyrant wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Ixidor13 wrote:We'll see. I'll email them next period.

Cause emails are so reliable.

What, is GW gonna troll him just for lulz? It may take a little while, sure, but it's Wednesay, we have plenty of time before any games will be played.

No, but you can send two e-mails and ask the exact same question in each, ad you will get three different responses from GW. (Not a lie this actually happened).

Also E-Mails can be faked so are not a valid source for the YMDC forum.

**Ixidor13**

So now I'm going to fake an email to seem like a winner on some random forum? Really? Well then what's the point of even discussing things on here?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean if I post an email from ward.matthew@gw.com saying I can use it 100 times per turn then of course. But what's the point?

**rigeld2**

Ixidor13 wrote:So now I'm going to fake an email to seem like a winner on some random forum? Really? Well then what's the point of even discussing things on here?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean if I post an email from ward.matthew@gw.com saying I can use it 100 times per turn then of course. But what's the point?

It's more the unreliability of the source than the faking possibility. The people who reply to rules questions may not know anything about the rules, and may even state something completely opposite of what the rulebook spells out in black and white.

It's happened. So it's not worth doing 99% of the time.

**Ixidor13**

Would calling in be better?

**kronk**

Ixidor13 wrote:Would calling in be better?

Not really. You'll get someone in customer service, not a game designer.

However, go ahead and email them. Perhaps they'll update the FAQ?

**DeathReaper**

Ixidor13 wrote:So now I'm going to fake an email to seem like a winner on some random forum? Really? Well then what's the point of even discussing things on here?

Woah Guy, back the truck up.

When did I ever say you were going to fake an e-mail?

I was simply stating Dakka's rules about valid sources, and the fact that E-Mails, when sent multiple times, will return different answers, as the people answering them are the GW Customer Service guys.

E-Mails are not a valid source for the YMDC forum as shown in the tenets of the forum.

This is from YMDC Tenets:
2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on.

The point of discussing things is to try to find the best solution (The solution that breaks the least rules) for any given ambiguous situation.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

**Ixidor13**

Woah Guy, back the truck up.

When did I ever say you were going to fake an e-mail?

I was simply stating Dakka's rules about valid sources, and the fact that E-Mails, when sent multiple times, will return different answers, as the people answering them are the GW Customer Service guys.

E-Mails are not a valid source for the YMDC forum as shown in the tenets of the forum.

This is from YMDC Tenets:
2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on.

The point of discussing things is to try to find the best solution (The solution that breaks the least rules) for any given ambiguous situation.

Ah, sorry there man. I overreacted. I'm going to call/email until I get an answer and then I'll post what I get. Take it or leave it I spose, I just hope that they update the FAQ to be less ambiguous.

**biccat**

The FAQ for the Main Rulebook was from FAQ version 1.3, released May 2011.

Assuming this is the correct document, the previous Chaos update was May, 2008 (the current being 1.1, I assume this is version 1.0, could be wrong).

Alternatively, the latest Chaos FAQ was updated December 5, 2011 while the rulebook FAQ was updated January 9, 2012.

**rigeld2**

IIRC Ahriman's abilities say he can cast the same power multiple times, right?

Which means there's no conflict at all and even more evidence that the Q&A are wholly involving Ahriman and nothing else.

If I'm wrong it's because I've looked at the Chaos codex like twice in the past 6 months.

**odorofdeath**

There really isn't anything ambiguous about this.

The ruling applies *only* to Ahriman - that's clear.

The BRB FAQ says you cant cast the same power more than 1 time, unless the power specifically allows it. In Gift's case, the power says nothing; the text about multiple powers is under the rules for the Mark of Tzeentch, so RAW seems pretty clear: yes for Ahriman, no for everyone else.

**juraigamer**

It doesn't matter when the FAQ was released, specific vs general, the rulebook is general and the FAQ is giving permission to cast chaos powers that aren't shooting attacks more than once.

The chaos codex states the same thing.

You may cast gift 3 times with ahriman, twice with any other tzeentch marked guy.

**rigeld2**

juraigamer wrote:It doesn't matter when the FAQ was released, specific vs general, the rulebook is general and the FAQ is giving permission to Ahriman to cast chaos powers that aren't shooting attacks more than once.

colored part added for clarification.

I don't have the Chaos codex - does Ahriman have specific permission to use the same ability more than once? Does a MoT give the same permission?

**Tangent**

Ahriman does not have the specific permission to use the same ability more than once - he is given permission to use multiple powers that count as shooting attacks in the same phase. Also, the MoT only improves the invuln save of a model. Most models who can take the MoT can take more than one psychic power. That's pretty much everything.

I guess I've been playing this wrong if only Ahriman can cast it twice.