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WD Codex: Independent Charaters that have the "Act of Faith" rule benifit from and bonus recieved by the unit when the AoF is used. Similarly units that have AoF rule benifit from any bonus when an IC uses an AoF that has joined the unit.

WD Codex: Cannoness "The Passion" "... if successful the Cannoness and her unit ... "

Based on how 40K rules work, I agrue that the Passion would in fact affect a Battle Conclave even though they do not have the AoF rule. We have a general rule that states that Faith Powers benifit both IC and Unit if both have the AoF rule. We also have a specific rule in the passion which states it affect both her AND her unit, so IMO it shouldn't matter if they have the AoF rule.

Correct?

Except you go back to the Battle conclave not having the Act of Faith Special rule.


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on top of that giving i6 death cult rerolls to hit is worthless cause i assume you are running uriah or kriz, which have rightous rage. making them i 7? really? is that what you need to do?

Technically, the rules make it so an IC who has AOF can't use it if they aren't attached to a squad with AOF since there are no rules for an IC making a faith check separate of an AOF unit, only rules for units with ICs attached making AOF checks.

Doesn't matter. If the Passion didn't state "Her Unit" then it would only affect units that had the AoF rule.

The Passion specificly states what it affects, her and her unit. You have General Permission to affect a unit with AoF. You have specific Permission to affect the Cannoness AND her Unit.

But you can't make the act of faith check to activate it, since there are no rules for an IC making an AOF check, only Sisters of Battle units with the AOF rule.

why though? just why? would you ever do this, since she is the only IC with an act of faith and the only thing that doesn't have Act of faith is the Battle conclave.

i am trying to see what you would do with this if it was miraculously possible,

Acts of Faith
An Act of Faith can be attempted immediately before a Sisters of Battle unit acts during a phase..

So:
- Are you in a Sisters of Battle Unit? Yes, BC is a SoB unit.
- Does that unit have the AoF rule? Nope.
- Is the AoF rule one of the rules that transfers to the unit from the Main Rulebook? Nope, so the canoness can't use it.

IC can't use AOF in a non AOF unit.

Pretre, you're staying that a Cannoness isn't a SoB unit with AoF? How do you come to THAT conclusion?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:why though? just why? would you ever do this, since she is the only IC with an act of faith and the only thing that doesn't have Act of faith is the Battle conclave.

i am trying to see what you would do with this if it was miraculously possible,

Put Kyrinov with a blob of 20 sisters for fearless and attach a Canoness to the Battle Conclave for Rerolls and I? Silly, but a reason.


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Yonush wrote:Pretre, you're staying that a Cannoness isn't a SoB unit with AoF? How do you come to THAT conclusion?

She's an SOB IC with AOF. When she joins a Battle Conclave she is part of an SOB unit without AOF.

Pretre is spot on for this one. You cannot make the test in the first place.

pretre wrote:

Yonush wrote:Pretre, you're staying that a Cannoness isn't a SoB unit with AoF? How do you come to THAT conclusion?

She's an SOB IC with AOF. When she joins a Battle Conclave she is part of an SOB unit without AOF.

Um, No. An IC is a unit and in addition, when she joins the Battle Conclave the "Unit" (meaning the BC and the IC) does have AoF from the cannoness. If the cannoness had an eviserator, would you say the unit has an eviserator?

The Passion confers its power to the unit because it specificly states it does.

on the contrary pretre

a SOB unit may attempt an act of faith.

the Battle conclave with a cannoness can use her act of faith, but since the battle conclave does NOT have the Act Of Faith special rule they can not benefit.

under independent characters says they benefit from and act of faith there unit uses, as does the unit that has the AOF rule


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pretre wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:why though? just why? would you ever do this, since she is the only IC with an act of faith and the only thing that doesn't have Act of faith is the Battle conclave.

i am trying to see what you would do with this if it was miraculously possible,

Put Kyrinov with a blob of 20 sisters for fearless and attach a Canoness to the Battle Conclave for Rerolls and I? Silly, but a reason.

ok so give the battle conclave a bare bones priest look rerolls lol

Yonush wrote:Um, No. An IC is a unit and in addition, when she joins the Battle Conclave the "Unit" (meaning the BC and the IC) does have AoF from the cannoness.

Rules, other than USRs specifically noted to do so, do not transfer to the unit when an IC attaches. See quote below from the rulebook.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:under independent characters says they benefit from and act of faith there unit uses, as does the unit that has the AOF rule

But the canoness is no longer a unit when she joins the BC, she is part of the unit. The unit does not have the AoF special rule, hence they can't use it.

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote:
When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

And un like all the other units with AOF the Cannoness is the only IC with an AOF she can use.

all other things are Units.

so for her AOF to say

if successful the unit receives +1I and preferred enemy, is bad ...writing.

other wise in CC she is her own unit for CC attacks but this would just apply to her unit not her.

which then would still fall under if the have the AOF special rule or not

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:if successful the unit receives +1I and preferred enemy, is bad ...writing.

No, it is specifying the interaction of her AoF with her unit. It works when she is able to use an AOF, which she is able to do when she attaches to a unit with AoF. It is pretty clear.

pretre wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:under independent characters says they benefit from and act of faith there unit uses, as does the unit that has the AOF rule

But the canoness is no longer a unit when she joins the BC, she is part of the unit. The unit does not have the AoF special rule, hence they can't use it.

The battle conclave is a SOB unit. As is the Cannoness. both a units in the SOB codex.

so they are allowed to attempt an act of faith (or rather the Cannoness is )

AoF isnt a USR so that doesn't apply and I'm not saying the BC get AoF rule, the cannoness has it so the unit has it so it can infact use the AoF. Now if The Passion did not speficly state the cannoness and her unit, then the BC couldn't benifit as the general rule would prohibit them. Specific over general. Specific permission is granted by the passion.

pretre wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:if successful the unit receives +1I and preferred enemy, is bad ...writing.

No, it is specifying the interaction of her AoF with her unit. It works when she is able to use an AOF, which she is able to do when she attaches to a unit with AoF. It is pretty clear.

i might have been misleading,

verbatim it says

"The cannoness and her unit"

not if successful the unit.

Yonush wrote:AoF isnt a USR so that doesn't apply and I'm not saying the BC get AoF rule, the cannoness has it so the unit has it so it can infact use the AoF. Now if The Passion did not speficly state the cannoness and her unit, then the BC couldn't benifit as the general rule would prohibit them. Specific over general. Specific permission is granted by the passion.

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote:When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

Acts of Faith, Codex:SOB wrote:An Act of Faith can be attempted immediately before a Sisters of Battle unit acts during a phase..

P48 isn't talking about USRs, it is talking about all special rules. The unit does not have AOF. The unit does not gain AOF from the IC. The AOF rule requires it to be used by a UNIT. Hence, you can't use it because you can never make the test.




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THE_GODLYNESS wrote:i might have been misleading, verbatim it says "The cannoness and her unit" not if successful the unit.

I'm looking at it. It is probably there to indicate that, because she is a separate unit in CC, the unit also benefits from the rule.

Yonush wrote:AoF isnt a USR so that doesn't apply and I'm not saying the BC get AoF rule, the cannoness has it so the unit has it so it can infact use the AoF. Now if The Passion did not speficly state the cannoness and her unit, then the BC couldn't benifit as the general rule would prohibit them. Specific over general. Specific permission is granted by the passion.

on the flip side where is permission given to transfer AOF to something that does not have it?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:on the flip side where is permission given to transfer AOF to something that does not have it?

There isn't any. In fact, the main rulebook specifically prohibits her from transferring AOF to the unit. The effects of AOF might transfer if she could make a test in the first place, but she can't.

pretre wrote: P48 isn't talking about USRs, it is talking about all special rules. The unit does not have AOF. The unit does not gain AOF from the IC. The AOF rule requires it to be used by a UNIT. Hence, you can't use it because you can never make the test.

Titan's Herald (BroChamp, GK Codex) has similar wording except for the activation.
As does The Perfect Warrior (same unit)
Techmarine's being able to repair is a special rule.

What your'e advocating is that the IC loses a special rule (or at least, loses access to a special rule) when joined to a unit.
The AoF rule requires it to be used by a unit, and the IC is a unit that has AoF.
I don't see an issue here.

If you read it under the independent characters and act of faith it is allowing the Cannoness to use her act of faith separate from the Celestians in this example.

it is specifce when it says they gain bonus if they have the AOF special rule.

Also specific is the Passion.

but since the Battle conclave does not meet the Requirements to benefit from an AOF then they cant

Again she doesn't conferit but the unit does have it and she can still benifit from it.

Example to illistrate my point. IC with preferred enemy joins a unit without. The ic does lose the PE rule. It still has it. So the unit has it. Just like if 1 person in a unit has a multmelta the unit has a multimelta.

The only reason the BC can benifit is because the passion specificly allows them too.

Yonush

The Cannoness and the unit Gain "The Passion"

this is to say that they have it you are correct.

Now if you have the special rule AOF you benifit from having it.

as such the cannonness has the AOF special rule so gains +1I and preferred enemy, the Battle conclave does not have AOF therefore while they are under the affects of "The Passion" they do not benefit from it

Not quite.

Standard denial - permission must be granted to do anything
General Permission to Cast an AOF given
General permission to share AoF if both units have AoF
Specific permission by The Passion to affect to allow the unit to benifit.

pretre wrote:But you can't make the act of faith check to activate it, since there are no rules for an IC making an AOF check, only Sisters of Battle units with the AOF rule.

I only skimmed the rest of the thread, so feel free to mock me if this has already been addressed.

I'll admit that it's unclear about how an IC makes faith checks, but I don't think it's valid to leap to the conclusion that an IC that's not attached to a squad can't use an AoF. An IC is a "Unit". In my mind, the only question is whether she tests on a 5+ or a 4+. (Does an IC count as being attached to herself?)

rigeld2 wrote:

pretre wrote: P48 isn't talking about USRs, it is talking about all special rules. The unit does not have AOF. The unit does not gain AOF from the IC. The AOF rule requires it to be used by a UNIT. Hence, you can't use it because you can never make the test.

Titan's Herald (BroChamp, GK Codex) has similar wording except for the activation.
As does The Perfect Warrior (same unit)
Techmarine's being able to repair is a special rule.

What your'e advocating is that the IC loses a special rule (or at least, loses access to a special rule) when joined to a unit.
The AoF rule requires it to be used by a unit, and the IC is a unit that has AoF.
I don't see an issue here.

Actually, rigeld, what he is advocating is that the IC special rules does not affect the unit (unless otherwise specified). This means that a Techmarine attached to a unit can still repair vehicles (otherwise it would be impossible to get the Servo-arm Servitor bonus). Titan's Herald does not have an activation, other than charging. Does AoF itself, not a specific power, specify that it affects any unit an IC joins?

Amerikon wrote:I'll admit that it's unclear about how an IC makes faith checks, but I don't think it's valid to leap to the conclusion that an IC that's not attached to a squad can't use an AoF. An IC is a "Unit". In my mind, the only question is whether she tests on a 5+ or a 4+. (Does an IC count as being attached to herself?)

When an IC joins a unit, it is considered to be a normal member of the unit (except for making attacks in close combat).

Happyjew wrote:Does AoF itself, not a specific power, specify that it affects any unit an IC joins?

The AoF rule says that an IC joined to a squad will receive the bonuses of Acts used by the unit to which she is attached. Similarly, if she is attached to a unit with the AoF rule, they will benefit from her act. What's unclear is what happens when she joins a unit that doesn't have AoF.

She can either still use her Act, but it would only apply to her. OR She can't use her act at all. I'm leaning towards the first interpretation.

Happyjew wrote:

Amerikon wrote:I'll admit that it's unclear about how an IC makes faith checks, but I don't think it's valid to leap to the conclusion that an IC that's not attached to a squad can't use an AoF. An IC is a "Unit". In my mind, the only question is whether she tests on a 5+ or a 4+. (Does an IC count as being attached to herself?)

When an IC joins a unit, it is considered to be a normal member of the unit (except for making attacks in close combat).

That's not what I meant. I'm talking about the IC by herself, not attached to any unit. The IC is still a "Unit", she's just a "Unit of 1". The question then is whether or not she gives herself the +1 to her AoF roll. I'm inclined to think that she does.

Yonsushs whole argument does not care about any of this it hinges on the wording of "The Passion"