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nosferatu1001 wrote:Regardless - if you claim an IC joined toa unit is stil la unit in and of itself, then according to the shooting rules where you target *units* I am allowed to target the IC. This alone entirely breaks ICs from working in a meaningful sense

BRB 49 wrote:Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets.

Regardless of their status as a unit, you're forbidden from doing so. Please stop using that argument - I've cited rules that disagree twice now.

They are a member of the unit, not a unit in and of themselves.

Can you cite a rule saying they're no longer a unit?

And DoW deployment is not irrelevant -

BRB 93 wrote:He then can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table (this is his ‘deployment zone’).

If I join an HQ IC to a unit, then (according to you and apparently everyone else) I'm not deploying an HQ, I'm deploying a Troop unit with an HQ attached.
Similar argument can be make for Hive Commander - The Troop unit gains Outflank, I join an HQ to it, it's still a Troop unit and not a Troop + HQ unit.

Amerikon wrote:You're picking and choosing how to read the word "unit" and you can't do that. The "unit" is an IC alone, some squad, or an IC joined to another unit.

No, I'm not.

BRB 47 wrote:Independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight as units in their own right.

That right there says an IC is a unit. I can't find anything saying it's not a unit.
Please show me a rule saying otherwise. I'm not intentionally being obtuse here - I just don't see the rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

They are a member of the unit, not a unit in and of themselves.

Can you cite a rule saying they're no longer a unit?

Can you cite one that says they are still a unit? P48 indicates that they join the unit that they attach to and become one unit, a combined unit.
Websters: combine To become one; to act together. To unite into a single number or expression. To bring into such close relationship as to obscure individual characters.

And DoW deployment is not irrelevant -

BRB 93 wrote:He then can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table (this is his ‘deployment zone’).

If I join an HQ IC to a unit, then (according to you and apparently everyone else) I'm not deploying an HQ, I'm deploying a Troop unit with an HQ attached.
Similar argument can be make for Hive Commander - The Troop unit gains Outflank, I join an HQ to it, it's still a Troop unit and not a Troop + HQ unit.

No. You are deploying three units, two troops and an HQ. How you attach or not those units does not affect the number that were deployed.

Amerikon wrote:You're picking and choosing how to read the word "unit" and you can't do that. The "unit" is an IC alone, some squad, or an IC joined to another unit.

No, I'm not.

BRB 47 wrote:Independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight as units in their own right.

That right there says an IC is a unit. I can't find anything saying it's not a unit.
Please show me a rule saying otherwise. I'm not intentionally being obtuse here - I just don't see the rule.

P3:A unit will usually consist of several models that fight together as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero.
Emphasis mine.
P49: Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit so may not be picked out as targets.

Also, the second half of your quote on P47 is: One of the most useful abilites of independent characters is to join other units in battle.

Where does it say they stay a separate unit? (Except for one instance when they throw attacks in H2H or get attacks assigned to them.)

pretre wrote:

And DoW deployment is not irrelevant -

BRB 93 wrote:He then can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table (this is his ‘deployment zone’).

If I join an HQ IC to a unit, then (according to you and apparently everyone else) I'm not deploying an HQ, I'm deploying a Troop unit with an HQ attached.
Similar argument can be make for Hive Commander - The Troop unit gains Outflank, I join an HQ to it, it's still a Troop unit and not a Troop + HQ unit.

No. You are deploying three units, two troops and an HQ. How you attach or not those units does not affect the number that were deployed.

Not true. I join ICs to unit before deployment (FAQ clarifies this). Therefore I'm not deploying an HQ unit.

Where does it say they stay a separate unit? (Except for one instance when they throw attacks in H2H or get attacks assigned to them.)

You have that backwards - I've shown where they are a unit. Find something that says they aren't.

You're mixed up.

Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin a
game joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48)
A: You should nominate which Independent Characters
are joining units at the start of deployment before you
place any units on the board. Note that this should be
done before you nominate which units are being held
in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc.

You still deployed 2 troops and an HQ units, but once the HQ is attached it is no longer a separate unit, it is a combined unit (as per P48).

Counter example:
Librarian
5 Man Tac Squad
Rhino

I deploy the 5 man tac squad in the rhino.
I only place the rhino on the board.
I have deployed two Troops on the board even though one is in the other and not actually on the board until they disembark.

This is the same as:
I deploy a 5 man tac squad on the board.
I deploy the librarian attached to the tac squad.
I have deployed a Troop and an HQ on the board even though one is part of the other and doesn't count separately until they move apart or one of the other exceptions occur (KP, assault swings, etc.)

It says they are a unit - does it say "always" a unit? No, just that an IC by itself is a unit. Whic hisnt strictly needed, and is just redundant information.

Are normal members of a unit a unit in and of themselves? No? Then I guess they arent a unit while joined to another unit.

pretre wrote:You're mixed up.

You're right - the attaching happens after deployment, but before placing models on the board. I misread that, thanks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Are normal members of a unit a unit in and of themselves? No? Then I guess they arent a unit while joined to another unit.

I have no idea what you're going for here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It says they are a unit - does it say "always" a unit? No, just that an IC by itself is a unit.

It says Termagants are Infantry - does it say they're always Infantry?

No, you need permission to change the state. Have you found permission in the rules?

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It says they are a unit - does it say "always" a unit? No, just that an IC by itself is a unit.

It says Termagants are Infantry - does it say they're always Infantry?

No, you need permission to change the state. Have you found permission in the rules?

Yes, page 48. They join a unit. Hence they are no longer a unit in and of themselves. They are now a combined unit. Hence one unit. If they weren't one unit, then there would be no need for rules dictating how you can shoot at them, how they move, how assaults work when they are attached, etc so on. They are one unit.

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It says they are a unit - does it say "always" a unit? No, just that an IC by itself is a unit.

It says Termagants are Infantry - does it say they're always Infantry?

No, you need permission to change the state. Have you found permission in the rules?

Yes, page 48. They join a unit. Hence they are no longer a unit in and of themselves. They are now a combined unit. Hence one unit. If they weren't one unit, then there would be no need for rules dictating how you can shoot at them, how they move, how assaults work when they are attached, etc so on. They are one unit.

Again, you have that backwards. If they are one unit, then there's no need for rules. We have rules.
Joining a unit does not mean they are no longer a unit. You have 2 units joined together to form a combined unit (wow, look at that word...)

I'll drop the argument though, because it's heading in circles. There's no rule saying the IC is no longer a unit. You might have RAI on your side (but I don't think so) but I don't think you can say RAW she's not still a unit, and therefore can't use Acts.

rigeld2 wrote:Again, you have that backwards. If they are one unit, then there's no need for rules. We have rules.
Joining a unit does not mean they are no longer a unit. You have 2 units joined together to form a combined unit (wow, look at that word...)

And the word combined means 'to be made one'. The rules are there to show exceptions to the rules for units, because otherwise she would only act as part of a normal unit and would be untargetable in melee, etc.

I'll drop the argument though, because it's heading in circles. There's no rule saying the IC is no longer a unit. You might have RAI on your side (but I don't think so) but I don't think you can say RAW she's not still a unit, and therefore can't use Acts.

There is such a rule. It is the one saying they join another unit and the ones describing how that new unit works and the ones describing which rules work in the new unit and which don't, etc so on.. You just aren't accepting it as one.

pretre wrote:There is such a rule. It is the one saying they join another unit and the ones describing how that new unit works and the ones describing which rules work in the new unit and which don't, etc so on.. You just aren't accepting it as one.

If they're one unit, why have all the rules surrounding shooting? It's a given.
Regardless, I dropped it.

rigeld2 wrote:

pretre wrote:There is such a rule. It is the one saying they join another unit and the ones describing how that new unit works and the ones describing which rules work in the new unit and which don't, etc so on.. You just aren't accepting it as one.

If they're one unit, why have all the rules surrounding shooting? It's a given.

To emphasize that they are one unit for all purposes.

Regardless, I dropped it.

Have you?

Apologize for the minor necro of the thread, but I wanted to just ask a simple question about whether the cannoness can actually use her act of faith, which seems to have been lost or dismissed by the thread as a whole.

In the WD codex under "Independent Characters and Acts of Faith", the final paragraph leads me to believe that an independent character can activate their act of faith independently of the unit as a whole.

I understand the issue of a Battle Conclave not having acts of faith, but it seems to me that the example given was there for illustrative, and not instructive, purposes.

Thoughts?

The conclusion as I can figure it is as follows:

Determine with your group if the cannoness can use her Act of Faith while attached to a Battle Conclave within your group/ ask a TO.

The Passion does affect whatever unit the Cannoness is with by RAW due to the specific verbage used in The Passion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The conclusion as I can figure it is as follows:

Determine with your group if the cannoness can use her Act of Faith while attached to a Battle Conclave within your group/ ask a TO.

The Passion does affect whatever unit the Cannoness is with by RAW due to the specific verbage used in The Passion.

Yep.