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Happyjew wrote:

pretre wrote: The unit does not gain AOF from the IC. The AOF rule requires it to be used by a UNIT. Hence, you can't use it because you can never make the test.

Actually, rigeld, what he is advocating is that the IC special rules does not affect the unit (unless otherwise specified). This means that a Techmarine attached to a unit can still repair vehicles (otherwise it would be impossible to get the Servo-arm Servitor bonus). Titan's Herald does not have an activation, other than charging.

I bolded and isolated the part I was addressing. It reads to me like he's saying that if the unit doesn't have a special rule (note - not USR, a separate special rule) then the IC loses access to it.

Does AoF itself, not a specific power, specify that it affects any unit an IC joins?

No idea, don't have the codex. I was simply addressing the quote. From the context of this thread it looks like it only affects a unit that also has AoF.

Passion, however, (from this thread) specifies that it affects the IC and his unit.

Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying, Amerikon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, I've re-read the wording of Acts of Faith.

Similarly, units that have the Acts of Faith rule benefit from any bonuses received by an independent character that has joined the unit when an Act of Faith is used

Since, the unit does NOT have AoF, they do not receive any benefits from an AoF, even if the wording of the Act says "and her unit".

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Yonsushs whole argument does not care about any of this it hinges on the wording of "The Passion"

It certainly cares about whether or not an IC attached to a non-faithful unit can use Acts of Faith.

That said, the SoB "codex" is pretty sloppy. I'd say that it was not their intention for a Canoness's Act to transfer to non-faithful units. That also said, RAW would support that it does.

Yonush: What answer are you looking for? You clearly came here looking for a specific one, so what would you like us to say?

@Amerikon: She is no longer 'a unit of 1' once she joins the BC unit. She is then part of the BC unit.

Also, Titan's Herald doesnt' require another special rule to work. I'm not arguing whether the Passion affects the squad or not. I'm arguing that you cannot activate the Passion because you can't use an Act of Faith unless you are a unit with the Special Rule 'Act of Faith'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amerikon wrote:That also said, RAW would support that it does.

How?
Where is the rule for an IC attached to an unfaithful unit to use an AOF?

pretre wrote:Also, Titan's Herald doesnt' require another special rule to work. I'm not arguing whether the Passion affects the squad or not. I'm arguing that you cannot activate the Passion because you can't use an Act of Faith unless you are a unit with the Special Rule 'Act of Faith'.

So you're arguing that the IC cannot activate an ability that the IC has when he's attached to a unit?
(The Cannoness cannot activate Act of Faith to access The Passion because she's attached to a unit that doesn't also have Act of Faith)

I just want to make sure I understand your opinion to be able to argue against it effectively and not misrepresent you.

Happyjew wrote:OK, I've re-read the wording of Acts of Faith.

Similarly, units that have the Acts of Faith rule benefit from any bonuses received by an independent character that has joined the unit when an Act of Faith is used

Since, the unit does NOT have AoF, they do not receive any benefits from an AoF, even if the wording of the Act says "and her unit".

What rules do you have to backup your position?

Okay, let's go on a quoting spree:

Acts of Faith: "An acto of faith can be attempted immediately before a sisters of battle unit acts during a phase."

ICS and Acts of Faith: "Independent characters that have the Acts of Faith rule benefit from the bonuses received by the unit they are with when an act of faith is used. Similarly, units that have the Acts of Faith rule benefit from any bonuses received by an independent character that has joined the unit when an act of faith is used.

If both a unit and an independent character have an AoF that takes effect in the same phase, you must attempt each act of faith separately."

Nowhere in there does it tell you how a model makes an act of faith. Since the Canoness is part of the unit, and the unit cannot make an AoF check, because it does not have the AoF special rule, and special rules do not transfer unless they specifically say so in their rules, she cannot make it.

And no, the Passion saying that it affects the unit does not transfer the ACT OF FAITH rule to the unit, it transfers the effects of the act of faith.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yonush wrote:What rules do you have to backup your position?

Great question. Quote a rule showing us how your unit without a particular special rule makes the check, or how the rules tell you to make a model make an AoF check.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and just so you don't forget:

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote:

When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:So you're arguing that the IC cannot activate an ability that the IC has when he's attached to a unit?
(The Cannoness cannot activate Act of Faith to access The Passion because she's attached to a unit that doesn't also have Act of Faith)

I just want to make sure I understand your opinion to be able to argue against it effectively and not misrepresent you.

That is correct. The IC cannot activate the power because only units can use Acts of Faith and she is not in a unit that has the Act of Faith special rule.

@Yonush, if a unit that has AoF benefits from an attached IC's AoF, then a unit without AoF does not benefit from AoF from an attached IC.
Basically:
If A Then B
B=/= C
=> If A, Then Not C.

I would allow the Cannoness use AoF, however, unless her unit has AoF they would not benefit from it.

rigeld2 wrote: It reads to me like he's saying that if the unit doesn't have a special rule (note - not USR, a separate special rule) then the IC loses access to it.

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote:

When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.


edit: No, that's not what I'm saying. They don't lose the special rule, but the unit does not gain it. The Acts of Faith rule requires a unit to test, not a model. The unit cannot test, only the model has a special rule that allows it. There is no rule for AoF tests to be taken by a single model in a squad.

rigeld, what that is saying, is (for example) if a Techmarine joins a Vanguard Veteran squad, he does not benefit from Heroic Intervention, and they do not benefit from Blessing of the Omnissiah (so they cannot repair vehicles). The Techmarine, however, can still repair vehicles since he doesn't lose the rule.

pretre wrote:Since the Canoness is part of the unit, and the unit cannot make an AoF check, because it does not have the AoF special rule, and special rules do not transfer unless they specifically say so in their rules, she cannot make it.

So you're asserting that an IC stops being an individual unit in all ways once it joins another unit?

If 2 ICs join each other, is there a unit there?

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So you're arguing that the IC cannot activate an ability that the IC has when he's attached to a unit?
(The Cannoness cannot activate Act of Faith to access The Passion because she's attached to a unit that doesn't also have Act of Faith)

I just want to make sure I understand your opinion to be able to argue against it effectively and not misrepresent you.

That is correct. The IC cannot activate the power because only units can use Acts of Faith and she is not in a unit that has the Act of Faith special rule.

Let's not get snippy...

In order to use an AoF the unit must have AoF. I covered this already, but to reiterate, when the cannoness joins the Battle Conclave, the unit does have the AoF rule because the cannoness doesn't lose it, it just doesn't confer to the Battle Conclave. The unit has it, even if the Battle Conclave doesn't.

Since the unit has AoF it can use AoF "The Passion". General Permission Granted.
The Passion has Specific verbage that the cannoness AND unit gains +1I and PE.

pretre wrote:@Amerikon: She is no longer 'a unit of 1' once she joins the BC unit. She is then part of the BC unit.

I can see that. If she joins an non-faithful unit, she's a part of that unit, so she can't use her act. They really left this unspecified, but I think it's a valid interpretation.

My other point that if she could use her act it would give a bonus to the non-faithful unit (RAW) is clearly invalidated by this.

rigeld2 wrote:So you're asserting that an IC stops being an individual unit in all ways once it joins another unit?

If 2 ICs join each other, is there a unit there?

Yes, except during one part of the assault phase.

Yes, if two ICs join each other, it is a unit. If a Canoness joined a theoretical non-Faithful IC, they would be a 2 person unit without the AoF rule. The Vanguard Veteran example above is great.

Yonush wrote:In order to use an AoF the unit must have AoF. I covered this already, but to reiterate, when the cannoness joins the Battle Conclave, the unit does have the AoF rule because the cannoness doesn't lose it, it just doesn't confer to the Battle Conclave. The unit has it, even if the Battle Conclave doesn't.

I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that "the unit" has it. There's no justification for the Canoness conferring AoF to the Conclave. It's not a case of the Canoness "losing it" but more that she's part of a unit that doesn't have it.

Yonush wrote:The unit has it, even if the Battle Conclave doesn't.

Stop, you can't transfer rules like that.

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote: When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

If a techmarine joins a Vanguard Veteran squad, the unit no longer has 'Heroic Intervention' even though most of the models do.

Since the unit has AoF it can use AoF "The Passion". General Permission Granted.

Wrong. The unit does not have AoF. One model does.

The Passion has Specific verbage that the cannoness AND unit gains +1I and PE.

Agreed. If only you could use the power, it would be great.

All i am saying is if you wanted Re-rolls to hit add a priest. the Cannoness is the only ic that has an act of faith and your joining it with the only unit (bar vehicles) that does not. completely pointless. and point waste.

and since i am the only SOB in my area i Doubt i will be trying to force feed this shenanigan down someones throat.

i am a firm believer that whether or not the Cannoness can use her is irrelevant cause the Battle conclave can not benefit from it due to not having AOF

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So you're asserting that an IC stops being an individual unit in all ways once it joins another unit?

If 2 ICs join each other, is there a unit there?

Yes, except during one part of the assault phase.

Yes, if two ICs join each other, it is a unit. If a Canoness joined a theoretical non-Faithful IC, they would be a 2 person unit without the AoF rule. The Vanguard Veteran example above is great.

If two IC's join, and an IC joining loses it's unit-hood, how does a 2 IC group become a unit?

Amerikon wrote:I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that "the unit" has it. There's no justification for the Canoness conferring AoF to the Conclave. It's not a case of the Canoness "losing it" but more that she's part of a unit that doesn't have it.

Exactly.

Happy, id agree with you if the specific wording of The Passion didn't include "and her unit". It does so without specific denial it works RAW

rigeld2 wrote:If two IC's join, and an IC joining loses it's unit-hood, how does a 2 IC group become a unit?

P48
'They can join other independent characters to form a powerful multi-character unit!'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yonush wrote:Happy, id agree with you if the specific wording of The Passion didn't include "and her unit". It does so without specific denial it works RAW

No, the EFFECT of her power works on her unit. The ACTIVATION of her power never occurs because she can't roll an Act of Faith.

That is what i will do make a 2 Cannoness unit so i am i6 with power weapons in CC yeah beast thing ever

pretre wrote:

Amerikon wrote:I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that "the unit" has it. There's no justification for the Canoness conferring AoF to the Conclave. It's not a case of the Canoness "losing it" but more that she's part of a unit that doesn't have it.

Exactly.

Simple question. If a cannoness has a power sword and joins a unit of sisters, can you say the unit has a power sword?

Yonush wrote:

pretre wrote:

Amerikon wrote:I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that "the unit" has it. There's no justification for the Canoness conferring AoF to the Conclave. It's not a case of the Canoness "losing it" but more that she's part of a unit that doesn't have it.

Exactly.

Simple question. If a cannoness has a power sword and joins a unit of sisters, can you say the unit has a power sword?

You are applying english rules to special rules. They don't work like that.

The answer is no, the canoness has a power weapon.

Yonush wrote:Simple question. If a cannoness has a power sword and joins a unit of sisters, can you say the unit has a power sword?

That is a terrible example. Let me give you a better example to use for your argument, if the Canoness has Feel no Pain and joins a unit that doesn't have it, does she lose the feel no pain rule?

And just because you keep ignoring it:

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote: When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

Necrosis wrote:

Yonush wrote:Simple question. If a cannoness has a power sword and joins a unit of sisters, can you say the unit has a power sword?

That is a terrible example. Let me give you a better example to use for your argument, if the Canoness has Feel no Pain and joins a unit that doesn't have it, does she lose the feel no pain rule?

No.

when you allocate wounds to said model, it will benefit from FNP (if applicable of course)

pretre, I don't think we need to keep bringing up the wording on page 48.
In regards to USRs, certain ones are lost if an IC joins a unit. For example, a Fearless IC loses Fearless if joined to a non-Fearless unit. Some are shared with the unit (such as Stubborn). Others, the unit gains the benefit of the rule, but not the rule itself, like 'Stealth'. For the rest of the USR's only the model(s) that has the rule benefits from it.

pretre wrote:

Yonush wrote:

pretre wrote:

Amerikon wrote:I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that "the unit" has it. There's no justification for the Canoness conferring AoF to the Conclave. It's not a case of the Canoness "losing it" but more that she's part of a unit that doesn't have it.

Exactly.

Simple question. If a cannoness has a power sword and joins a unit of sisters, can you say the unit has a power sword?

You are applying english rules to special rules. They don't work like that.

The answer is no, the canoness has a power weapon.

That can't be. The IC is part of the unit for all purposes except for CC as you rightly stated before. So as the cannoness is part of the unit the unit has a power sword.

So as we agree that the cannoness doest lose AoF, the unit can be said to have AoF as the cannoness is part of the unit. Do you see my logic?

I'm not 100% convinced that the IC loses it's "unit-hood".

The IC + unit is referred to as a "combined unit" on page 48.